Beginner New to 35mm!

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Andrew
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Hi guys and girls,

This weekend I purchased a Pentax ME Super, a Pentax 50mm M f1.7 and a few rolls of Ilford B&W ISO 400 film. I want to try out film photography as I believe that along with the aesthetic qualities of film, it will also enhance my digital photography by taking me back to ensuring that everything is right in-camera first time by taking more time to think about the basics on every shot.

However, aside from using parents’ very basic film cameras back in the 90’s (and having nothing to do with the development of said images), I have literally no experience working with this medium. I have spent the last few days looking online for advice and tips and spent some time looking through the manual for the ME, but any help would be greatly appreciated both in terms of the photography aspect and also where/how to get the film developed as unfortunately darkroom equipment is out of budget for now!

Thanks in advance

Andy
 
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Basic stuff:

Better to slightly overexpose than underexpose.
Use coloured filters to control how different colours appear in the final image (i.e. a red filter will darken skies/lighten skin, green will lighten grass/darken skin etc).
Composition and framing are as important in film work as digital (often forgotten from the sheer awe of using film, from what I've seen).
If you can afford it, get the images scanned by the lab at high resolution, so that you have a good digital basis to work with. Feel free to process the heck out of them to get a good result afterwards.
When doing darkroom work, we'd dodge, burn and do all the post-processing we could to boost an image. PP is fully authentic in mono work.

The ME Super is a nice little camera, though auto only, so be aware that you may have to use compensation to get a reasonable exposure. Have fun.
 
Thanks very much for the advice! I'd read about the filters so will be having a look into that, I've heard good things about Peak Imaging for development and I use Ps and Lr for all of my digital work, just can't wait to get out and use it to be honest!
 
Before digital, B&W was usually the poor-man's choice. Colour photography has been about since the tag end of the 18oo's, it was just rather difficult, and most processed used an 'addative' system like trichrome, where three separate exposures, filtering Red green and blue had to be made, and then composited. I actually had a go at Trichrome last christmas with a roll of cheap B&W and compositing the results digitally in photoshop, which was interesting. However..

In the early 19oo's 'subtractive' colour processes that made three coincident exposures on seperately filtered 'layers' of emulsion a single piece of film, were pioneered, that were a little easier to manage, but still rather more complicated & expensive to mamage and make viewable pictures from.

Meanwhile, the 35mm film format was conceived in the 1920's, as a 'cheap' compact film format, able to use 35mm movie film, as the money in movies made the technical advances possible and made it cheaper and more available.

Monochrome... however remained popular, as it was still cheaper; especially in larger formats, particularly the 120 format, where negatives were large enough to 'contact' print without enlargement to make viewable possitive prints, and the process is 'cold' and reletively simple and DIYable.

Legacy of 35mm is somewhat perniciouse; and it's worth adding that its popularity was driven by being based around that common and reasonably inexpensive movie film. In the 1930's it was a format shunned by most photographers, as the smaller format and need for enlargement made it more expensive to obtain like for like image quality from it. It wasn't until the 1950's that the system gained much following, when war-time advances in manufacturing quality control, and the 'mass' market consumerisation started to see the cost/quality benefit improve; BUT major reason for shooting 35mm in those early days was simply COLOUR, you could shoot commonly available colour movie stock, and slide film, offered the advantage that you didn't need to have print's made to view, you could view the developed film stock in an iluminated magnifying viewer or on a projection screen. right up until the 80's and beyond, medium and large format remained teh favoured format of seriouse and proffessional photographers.

35mm B&W was actually something of a side step, and usually shot for cost or expedience rather than 'art'; as it was easier and quicker to home process and print, and at least up to neg stage, still cheaper than medium or larger formats, but right up until the end, pro's were still poopooing 35mm 'quality' for 'seriouse' reprographgics work.

Which may go someway to query some of your presumptions about film photography and B&W.. yup, its a magical thing to do, BUT; 35mm's forte was always 'cheap colour' not 'good' B&W.

Whilst 35mm SLR's, were a bit of a mongrel, and an awful lot MORE compromises for questionable merit. Main advantage was "What you See is What You Get"{or close enough} view finder composition; that advantage being core to the evolution of the interchangeable lens 'system' SLR, not having to change view finders or viewfinder lenses to match the taking lenses field of view, as had been niggle of interchangeable 35mm 'range-finder' cameras or 'Twin-Lens-Reflex' roll film cameras... did rather deminish the potential 35mm cameras had for being 'compact' though, and merti questionable if you dont use very many different lenses!

On which not; I have a rather nice Ziess Ikonta 'folding' 120 camera, with fixed {Damn woman's 'dusted' again, so I cant lay my hands on it! to check} 80mm lens. Slightly larger in outline than any of my 35mm cameras' but folded down it DOES far more comfortably slip into a jeans or jacket pocket, than any of the SLR's. That is a camera, that designed around the 120 format, offers the image quality 35mm users only aspired to, and where B&W was exploited to make it affordable, or for artistic merit.

So IF that is what you are looking for, that 'real' back to basics think about it photography; the Pentax & 50, nice camera as it may be, might be somewhat short changing yourself.

Personally, given your comments about commercial processing; I would be suggesting you use cheaper and cheaper to process colour film in that camera, apart from college photo class where they were popular and where B&W was the usual media to get folk doing it all DIY, colour was what that kind of camera was made for.

As to the home processing: When I got into home dev, my Gran actually revealed some family history and aparently her mother, in the 1920's & 30's was a keen ameteur, having started with an over the counter box brownie; and progressed to a 1/4 plate field camera; sending my gran, as a child, out to the farm to collect the eggs, so she could use the egg whites to make her own photographic emulsion in the kitchen! {and treat her to a propper farm house custard!}

I have to hand, Michael Langford's "the Dark-room hand book" and the historical processes he explains in the book are fantastic reading, even if you never have a go at home developing. BUT, revalation aught to be in how much is possible without any major investment in specialist equipment or a dedicated darkroom.

I still home-process B&W, as these days it ISN'T the 'cheaper' alternative, and hasn't for a very long time. By the 1990's standardised chemistry and 'Dry to Dry' minilab machines had brought the cost of C41 colour processing down to the point it was cheaper to get colour prints than B&W 'over the counter', and last few rolls of colour I've shot have been souped by ASDA for £2 a roll, as it's cheaper than getting the chemistry to do them at home!

Meanwhile, digital has made that the more normal viewing media; I could drag the enlarger out the loft and make prints still, but who would look at them? For the most part anything I shoot is going to eventually wind up digital, and Photo-shop has pretty much rendered the dark room redundant so I "kitchen sink" develop my exposed films, dry, and scan at home.

Kitchen sink developing doesn't take an awful lot of specialised kit, even to do colour or slide films.

A 'changing bag' to take exposed film out of the can and get it into a developing tank is useful, but Langford even explains how you can improvise an old black T-shirt or a dark towel and a draw for that, if you have to! so all you REALLY need is a developing tank and spiral, a kit of chemistry, a few empty pop bottles and something to time the 'soaks' with! You dont need a dedicated darkroom, or wet-room, or anything.

Making prints? Well, that gets a bit more tricky; but as my Gt Gran obviousely did, you dont need much more than some chemicals, paper and an ordinary domestic window. According to my Gran, her mum made contact prints from her 1/4 plate camera by holding them up to the kitchen window! and again, Langford provides a lot of suggestion on improvisations that can be made, and even how to build a cupboard darkroom or temprary 'bathroom' darkroom. For 35mm though you do really need an 'enlarger' to make conventional prints or decent viewing size.

So many colleges and schools clearing out 'redundant' dark room equipment these days, that's even less 'wanted' than old film cameras, you can set up a home dark room, these days for very little money, if you hunt ebay hard enough; and as said, you dont need to do any major home alterations to set up a temprary darkroom. I've made prints in my mother's kitchen whilst the family were asleep, doing little more than close the curtains and turn the lights off!

It could well be worth looking into. Experience of using a 35mm SLR, with a fixed prime, TBH is not a huge step from using a Digital SLR, beyond the likely faster prime, and small shift in DoF/perspective from the 'crop-factor' {or lesser lack of}, on one of the less automated exposure modes. Home processing, and possibly printing, is the next step to taking control of teh whole process from scene to image. And as said, a MF 120 roll-film camera, even a pretty basic fixed lens one, is more likely to offer you more of what you are really hoping for in terms of that astheatic and feel, taking that DoF/Perspective shift right off the scale from the small difference between Crop-Sensor DSLR & 35mm 'full-frame'.

But, it is a fun direction to explore. I still use my 35mm SLR's.. but I have to say, I still seem to shoot more with my little 35mm 'compacts' {Olympus XA2's and a Konica 'true focal length' C35} as I always have done, and in colour, exploiting the two facets of the format it was good at! 35mm SLR is a mongrel, from the beginning; and whilst sticking to the fixed 50 and B&W is a bit of accademic purity, that has merit, it was an over sold idea even in 35mm's hay-day, notion you needed an interchangeable lens system SLR even more so.

Advice? Tips? Buy a copy of Langford, and enjoy the journey through photographic evolution he takes you on and let it inspire you. Dont get hung up on that antiquated photo snobbery of 35mm System SLR's, fast primes and B&W. Chuck colour through it. Try some different lenses if they come up cheaply enough; Get a dev tank and a cheap scanner and have a go at home processing, see where that takes you.

IF you come back to what you are doing with the Pentax & 50 & B&W... hunt out a cheap 120 folder on e-bay; you should be able to find something pretty useful and useable for under £50.. a LOT under, if you hunt a bit! That does all you want to do with the 35mm SLR... but even better!

And remember, at the end of the day, it's the final result that matters. HOW you make a picture is of very little importance or relevence to very many people; its what they see when its 'done' that counts... so WHO is going to see the pictures you take? And what will they find interesting? 'Cos when all is done and dusted, dont matter how perfectly composed, how perfectly exposed, or how technically amazing a picture may be... if the SUBJECT doesn't interest anyone... why bother? No one will find it 'interesting'.
 
if the SUBJECT doesn't interest anyone... why bother? No one will find it 'interesting'.

There's a lot I could comment on, but I'll confine myself to this one point. In my opinion, the subject pales into insignificance compared to how the photographer has treated it/what the photographer has revealed about it. Personally, I don't see nautilus shells or peppers as particularly worth a second glance - or I wouldn't have if I had not seen (second hand) what Edward Weston saw and revealed in them. It's not the subject that matters, it's whether the photographer can see what others miss in the subject and show it to them.
 
Pop over to the Film & Conventional section to say hi - show us your shots when you've processed your first roll! :)
 
the subject pales into insignificance compared to how the photographer has treated it/what the photographer has revealed about it.
Semantics & division of 'subject', between the one 'shot' and the one 'shown'.
Subject 'shown' is still where the viwer has to find the interest; whether that is provided by an abstract interpretation, offered purely for aesthetic appeal, or straight 'record' of scene, or a technical illustration.
Interest still remains in 'the subject both as shot and as shown, and its relevance to the viewer, which is probably the more pertinent question.

So what is the purpose of the photo? Who is going to look at it? And what will THEY be 'interested' by? Is my purpose To Record? To inform? To Educate? To Inspire? To Entertain? How do you wish to influence the viewer? It starts with the subject, and it ends with the subject, shot and shown.

If I am taking pictures of a motorbike show, recording what was on display. Interest is significantly in the subject shot; Any interpretation of that subject may make for a more or less pleasant picture to be shown, but the interest remains significantly in the subject as shot; and I wouldn't expect any one not interested in motorbikes, or even the sort of motorbikes on display, to be particularly interested in them, no matter WHAT interpretation I might try and add.

If I am taking a photography of a bank of motorcycle carburetors to show where the vacuum ports are so that someone can balance the ones on their motorbike, utterly pointless if they want to do the job on a the CV type carbs on a four cylinder Honda 750, taking a photo of the single AMAL slide type carb on an old Triumph 500! The 'subject' even as shot, is critical! How I have treated that subject, and what I have revealed about the subject as 'shown', other than what the carbs look like, and where the necessary ports are to be found, is pretty redundant; 'intended' interest is in answering the question asked, not in any interpretation or artistic merit! May or may not be there, but it isn't 'important', unless it was the intent.

If I am taking photo's purely for aesthetics; to hang on the wall, and pleasantly decorate a dentists waiting room, and maybe entertain and distract the patients terrified of being called in, making them wonder exactly what it is the photo is of; probably doesn't matter whether its an oily tappet from a 1954 Matchless Motorcycle, rendered into abstract to show the complicated helix of the thread form and the colour play in the oil rainbow, or the steering hub of a 1989 Bimota, lit to emphasise the fantastic form and machining patterns of cutting it from a solid piece of billet aluminium, or cropped artistically in order to establish a phallic analogy!!! Might make a subject with no inherent interest as shot, 'more' interesting to some viewers; but the interest still remains in the 'subject' as shown.

"Subject" is the beginning and the end, in no instance does it pale into insignificance, and suggestion that merit of a photography is to be found, whether entirely or significantly, in the 'interpretation' and treatment of the subject, only gains any significant validity when applied to 'Art' photography and aesthetic exercises; it is NOT true of all photography.
 
Pop over to the Film & Conventional section to say hi - show us your shots when you've processed your first roll! :)

better still, have this thread moved there by a passing staff member...

Oh, look, it's already happened... ;)
 
****if the SUBJECT doesn't interest anyone... why bother? No one will find it 'interesting'***

Hey I'm not a pro and take shots that please me or my family or sometimes friends.....if other people like them I consider it a bonus. :rolleyes:
 
Hi guys and girls,

This weekend I purchased a Pentax ME Super, a Pentax 50mm M f1.7 and a few rolls of Ilford B&W ISO 400 film. I want to try out film photography as I believe that along with the aesthetic qualities of film, it will also enhance my digital photography by taking me back to ensuring that everything is right in-camera first time by taking more time to think about the basics on every shot.

However, aside from using parents’ very basic film cameras back in the 90’s (and having nothing to do with the development of said images), I have literally no experience working with this medium. I have spent the last few days looking online for advice and tips and spent some time looking through the manual for the ME, but any help would be greatly appreciated both in terms of the photography aspect and also where/how to get the film developed as unfortunately darkroom equipment is out of budget for now!

Thanks in advance

Andy

Didn't manage to read all of Mike's post, but in part he seemed to be saying you would do better with a different camera, larger negs etc. In one sense that's right, perhaps, but for getting into film the kit you've got is nice and simple and good quality; it shouldn't get in your way.

There's a sticky resources thread above, and one of the thread's it links to is this one:

https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/first-film-camera-ever-or-for-many-years.481985/

There might be something in there that's useful. There's another thread about developing:

https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/tutorials/film-developing-in-the-uk.99/

... but it's very long. The TLDR bit is mainly in the first post, plus the handy cost comparison widget linked from that post. It makes a difference what sort of film you have bought; Ilford sells two very different types of 400 ISO film. HP5 and Delta 400 are "classic" films, the sort that can be easily processed at home (many folk on here do that), although not worth it for just a couple of films. However, not all the places you can get film processed these days will do classic B&W (or only by sending it out); Boots, Snappy Snaps, ASDA etc are in this category. The other Ilford ISO 400 film is XP2, which is a black and white film based on colour film chemistry (C41). Almost anywhere will process those, but they are a bit harder to do at home. I'd suggest Filmdev for either, personally.

Good luck, and as Charlotte says, we'd love to see what you come up with! :):):)
 
Semantics & division of 'subject', between the one 'shot' and the one 'shown'.
Subject 'shown' is still where the viwer has to find the interest; whether that is provided by an abstract interpretation, offered purely for aesthetic appeal, or straight 'record' of scene, or a technical illustration.

Hardly, Mike. The photograph is what's shown, and the subject (considered as an external object) may be scarcely recognisable. If all you're saying is that a photograph that someone finds uninteresting won't interest them, it's rather tautological. If you're saying that the external object in front of the lens always looks like that in the photograph, then I disagree.

If I am taking pictures of a motorbike show, recording what was on display. Interest is significantly in the subject shot; Any interpretation of that subject may make for a more or less pleasant picture to be shown, but the interest remains significantly in the subject as shot; and I wouldn't expect any one not interested in motorbikes, or even the sort of motorbikes on display, to be particularly interested in them, no matter WHAT interpretation I might try and add.

We'll never agree on this. I have no interest at all in peppers; but Edward Weston's photographs of them have a great interest. My interest isn't at all in the subject per se; it's what the photographer has revealed that I never saw there. Cedric Wright's comment to Ansel Adams "why didn't I see that?" when viewing the image Ansel Adams had made from a patch of ice and a cliff expresses my point. An inherently uninteresting subject can be raised to an interesting photograph by the photographer.

But I'm out now - this is all way off topic.
 
By the way I didn't mean for this thread to cause any kind of conflict, I fully appreciate that film and conventional is a huge area and I am merely dipping my toe in but thank you all for your advice, as soon as my first film is completed and developed I will let you see (as long as it is somewhat legible!)
 
F&C folk generally aim to be inclusive and supportive, Go Andrew!

What Chris Said!

Welcome Andrew, film is a great and addictive medium, there are lots of folk in this part of the forum that will offer advice, assistance and comradery . Look forward to seeing your foray into film!
 
taking me back to ensuring that everything is right in-camera first time by taking more time to think about the basics on every shot.


:agree:
 
Took my first 9/10 shots today, can't wait to finish the roll to get it developed!

One of the 'problems' for me with film, is the urge to finish a roll quicky so I can get it processed and see the results! :)

Good luck with the pictures. I've recently started shooting film again over the las few months, and I enjoy it a great deal. Technically, my shots are worse than what I could get with my digital camera, but there's something there with film in terms of the way it looks, the anticipation of seeing the results for the first time and, dare I say it, the more 'real' and physical sense of a strip of chemical-coated plastic sat in the camera capturing the images when you press the shutter release and then wind on the shot (as well as the actual act of loading and unloading the film itself). Digital has the upper hand in terms of advantages, but I find shooting film a more luxurious and pleasurable experience for some reason.
 
One of the 'problems' for me with film, is the urge to finish a roll quicky so I can get it processed and see the results! :)

Good luck with the pictures. I've recently started shooting film again over the las few months, and I enjoy it a great deal. Technically, my shots are worse than what I could get with my digital camera, but there's something there with film in terms of the way it looks, the anticipation of seeing the results for the first time and, dare I say it, the more 'real' and physical sense of a strip of chemical-coated plastic sat in the camera capturing the images when you press the shutter release and then wind on the shot (as well as the actual act of loading and unloading the film itself). Digital has the upper hand in terms of advantages, but I find shooting film a more luxurious and pleasurable experience for some reason.

Excellent and would just add that we are not a bunch of dinosaurs here as many\quite a few also use a digi camera...probably best known as "horses for courses". I'm one of the few dinosaurs as all I have is an old half working digi compact for quick shots of gear..h'mm and even haven't used my old mobile yet to see what a shot is like :rolleyes:
 
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One of the 'problems' for me with film, is the urge to finish a roll quicky so I can get it processed and see the results! :)
I rather enjoy the 'forgotten fiver' effect, these days; you know like finding the forgotten fiver in jacket pocket:
You know what it's like, when you see 28 in the counter window, and think... "Oh! What can I find to use those last few up on?" NOT doing so and leaving the film in the camera, '"'Cos it'll only sit in the fridge for a month or more until I have three or four rolls to make it worth mixing up some chems...."
So, I save the frames and put it back in the bag, and take it home.... Of course next time, I will probably take a different camera.... so I wind up with three or four all showing 28 or 29 in the window, and even if I do finish the roll, it sits in the fridge, 'cos I only have a few frames on the roll in the other camera... may as well wait until that's finished and do 'em all together.....

A year or two later.......

I get a lot of forgotten fiver 'surprises':LOL:

I have actually completely forgotten what I have shot on the roll in the Konika in the last couple of years!
 
Good luck Andrew and hope you're enjoying your Pentax ME so far. I've read some good posts on your thread here. It's always inspiring here, reading what it is that makes people pick up a camera and take a picture. And, reading about what kind of photographer they are (trad/digital/hybrid ... 35mm, med/large format etc etc). It made me think about a few things to do with my own analogue journey. I think anyone taking up or trying out analogue after shooting digital is bound to end up enriching their craft.

From my own experience of returning to film photography recently from a decade of predominantly digital work, the emotional connection I've felt with analogue photography (compared with my increasing indifference to my digital imaging) has put everything which includes any elements of traditional photography into a completely different league for me. I find myself more and more interested in the sheer alchemy of film/traditional darkroom techniques. I include in that the hybrid techniques of shooting film then scanning it for use. I always knew I liked analogue cameras, the old manual lenses and all the rest of it. That was often an appreciation of mechanical craftsmanship I think. And, their longevity. It frustrates me how short lived my digital cameras have been, although I know I have used them a good deal more than my film cameras. I guess it's like buying a laptop or a phone. Even it does still work after five years, it will feel clunky to an extent. A film camera that's 20, 30, 40 years old will just feel like it's getting better and better very often.

But what has surprised me is just how little I actually ever knew about analogue photography back in the days before I switched to digital. Admittedly, it was only ever an occasional pastime then and it it was digital photography that allowed me to start to use photography as a way of earning a living (in part ...). But I realise now that my earlier pre-digital photography hadn't even scratched the surface of film (so to speak ... I try and be careful never to do that of course!). Now I want to learn all I can and I have a feeling that my emotional response towards the well crafted analogue image will grow and grow the more I immerse myself in the many available processes. I enjoy reading about and and learning from all the others here who already know their craft and also hearing from those are finding it now for the first time, or who are coming back to it. Most of all, I like seeing how people are seeing the world around them and how (and why) they are responding to it photographically. Analogue feels to me like it makes that whole response deeper and more enjoyable. Long may it continue.
 
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Here are a few of the shots from my first ever roll of film! There were quite a few that weren't keepers but I have learnt a lot from that first roll by trying it out in different ways to try and get a feel of how the camera performs in different situations. Next I'm going to try a colour film to experiment further but I'm absolutely loving it so far!
 
Great set for a first roll, Andrew. I love the first one, wonderful expression and you've managed to create some lovely "pop". The last is excellent, too.
 
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