New to film, any help appreciated

chocky

chocky

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Si
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So, digital is boring me now. Lost that loving feelin but i really dont want to fall out of love with photography (the cost, the sheer amount of kit, you all know what im talking about, since i play golf as well, which itself is an expensive hobby somethings gotta give) so ive decided to have a pop at film togging.

Nowthen, i dont know much... scratch that i dont know a thing about film cameras/film so here i am. Im after a couple of cameras (one for me one for the mrs but they need to be the same) that are quite cheap and preferably as basic as can be had with no battery help (other than for the lightmeter i guess), this isnt essential it would just be cool to not have to worry about charging/changing batteries. Id like them to have plenty of character as im not after a flawless photograph, thats just boring in my eyes and wont awaken my senses. Lenses needed as well i guess :D but the main point of the excercise is cost, no particular budget i would just prefer cheap. Later on im more than happy to spend as much as needed on film but for now i just want to learn this awe-inspiring skill.

Since ill just be starting out ill obviously need some film but ill no doubt be making plenty of mistakes to start with so some cheap 'starter' film would be cool. If anyone could recommend me the camera(s) and film that would be much appreciated.

Also, what do i need to look out for when looking at used film cameras? Any potential defects or worn parts that are common?

Moving on... Im guessing that film photography is no easy task to learn. For those of you have used both film and digital, is film as enjoyable and rewarding as im expecting it to be? Im after something where its literally just me and the camera. No expensive tripods or L lenses or whatever, just back to basics where i can rely on skill and creativity or is that just my unwarranted sense of nostalgia? Either way i feel more passionate about film than i ever have about digital and ive not even tried film yet, kinda doesnt make sense to me but ive got to try.

And last (but not least), if anyone knows of any guides/tutorials/sources of learning for film photography id also appreciate it :). Apologies for the worlds longest post but i want to make sure ive covered most if not all bases :D

Thanks in advance and all the best to all (y) (please bear with me in responding to posts btw, i work nights so sleep during the day)

Si
 
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Hi Si, it might be an idea to start out with a couple of cheap rangefinders. No need to worry about changing lenses and eg the Voigtlander CL's don't need batteries. They also produce very nice images.

This is a Voigtlander C for which you need a seperate rangefinder but the CL's are built in.

Vito-C by andysnapper1, on Flickr

Heres an image taken with the above camera

Cardiff-Bay-Statues by andysnapper1, on Flickr

As to film take a look at 7 day shop, AG photographic, Mailshots or Silverprint or for really cheap stuff Pound shops quite often have £1 a roll stuff which is fine for a trial.

If you don't fancy a rangefinder and I see you shoot Canon, some of the old entry level Canon film SLR's are available at very reasonable prices but I'm no expert as I'm over on the darkside.

I'm sure you will get many more helpful answers before the end of the day and welcome to the world of the past.....(y)

Cheers

Andy
 
Whoah, thats one gorgeous camera. Love the look of it. Much prettier than todays monstrosities. Thanks for that though :) Nice to see i can dirt cheap film to play with :) How much could i get a good copy for? Theres one on ebay with no bids @ £10 but sounds like its pretty naff condition.

Please forgive the ultimately noobish question but whats the difference between a rangefinder and an SLR?

Thanks again :)
 
first a little bit of reading about rangefinders v slr's
http://www.photozone.de/slr-vs-rangefinder

personaly for a first film camera i'd go for an slr ,,with a 50mm lens on the front .
theres quite a few to look for ,,pentax, nikon ,olympus, canon ,minolta ,etc i use nikon fm's
040_800x600_.jpg

most film cameras have light seals around the door and doorhinge ,and a small piece of foam under the mirror that acts as a damper ,these can go off and need replacing , but its not a hard job just a bit time consuming ,some need batteries to fire the shutter others only to work the light meter ,but i think that using film makes you think more before you push the button ,
 
You probably know that an SLR (Single Lens Reflex) has a mirror in front of the shutter that reflects the view through the lens up into the viewfinder via a pentaprism/pentamirror allowing you to compose and focus?

A rangefinder works differently in that theres no mirror and you don't look through the lens, you look through a viewfinder that has a rangefinder in it, basically you focus the rangefinder until the two images are perfectly on top of one another. If the rangefinder is coupled then it also focuses the lens, if not then you read off the distance the rangefinder is focusing to and tranfer it to the lens. The one above on Andy's camera doesn't have built in rangefinder, only a viewfinder so its uncoupled.

Personally for your requirements I would get a tried and tested model such as Pentax Spotmatic or a Spotmatic F in that they only use a battery for the metering and there are tons of good M42 lenses about for good prices.

The advantage of the Spotmatic F is that it allows open aperture metering (usually with M42 cameras you have to use stop down metering) with the brilliant SMC Takumar lenses but unfortunately not with other lenses (except Tamron Adaptall 2 lenses with an ES mount).
 
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Spot on, thanks both, understand it now :) Again, that pentax is stunning. The coupled rangefinder sounds appealing though but i think id probably prefer an SLR.

Any idea what sort of budget id have to set aside (for both an SLR and a rangefinder, and maybe also a coupled rangefinder)?

God i love these forums :)

Cheers again
 
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Si, the Voigtlanders with an in-built rangefinder tend to go for £25-£35 quid or a bit more depending on the model. As to an SLR well I picked up a fully working, cosmetically lovely Nikon F401 for 99p a few weeks ago. So if you're looking on the bay it depends on luck really. Have a look at Ffordes website they have a lot of good used SLR's at a reasonable price and they are very helpful and knowledgeable.

Andy
 
In case it wasn't clear above, both the Pentax models that I mentioned above are SLR's not rangefinders.
 
I'll go through your post step by step. Many people do pick up film when they feel they have lost something shooting digital only, and you wouldn't be the first who ended up doing so. Many of those people end up shooting film & digital together, we get the best of both worlds from each platform.

There were a whole myriad of cameras that fit your category, there were hundreds of manufacturers producing cameras - now it's mostly Canon and Nikon in the DSLR field, but with SLRs you have Nikons, Pentax, Canon, Olympus, Yashica, Minolta and many more, all excellent cameras. There are many battery independent cameras, and it's a great way of working: just sheer engineering. My ~54 year old Yashica Mat requires no battery at all, and it's wonderful not needing any reliance on it.

There are many excellent film cameras that can be had on a budget, do you have a firm budget? If you do, I'd try and include a CLA - clean, lube and adjust or a service in layman's terms, which means at the end you'll get a camera that has been fully overhauled and as it came out of the factory. It isn't essential, many cameras are still mechanically fine, but the peace of mind and the cleaning does most cameras some good. Imagine if you went without a wash for a while... (y)

Starter film - Poundland often stocks some cheap Kodak film, if you are lucky your local one may stock UltraMax 400 which is meant to be pretty reasonable, or if you are less lucky ColorPlus 200 (I have 2 rolls sitting here next to me, waiting to try). But if you want to have some test rolls, £1 a film takes a lot of beating.

I wrote a post in a recent thread detailing almost everything that you'd want to know about when buying a film camera - light seals can be an issue BUT that shouldn't be a dealbreaker, since they can be replaced by yourself without too much skill (if I can do it...!). Some more serious stuff would be a deal breaker though - if the film winding mechanism isn't smooth and appears like it might be on it's last legs, and so on. Unfortunately, only experience with cameras over time can help you to know whether you have a duff or nice camera in front of you, so I can only try to help verbally. But you know, if it's in bits in front of you and looks like someone used it to hammer nails, maybe one to avoid (that said, my Nikon looks like it was used in the construction industry for sometime and it is still mechanically perfect).

Film photography is unbelievably easy, arguably even easier than digital because you don't have to mess with menus, white balance, ISO (the ISO is fixed for the film you use, so you can't change it) and ensuring your memory card is formatted and so on... please please don't think it's difficult or a massive difference, because it's still setting aperture and shutter speed to record onto a sensor of sorts, it just happens that the sensor in question is a film emulsion rather than a bit of silicone. Just you and the camera - make sure you buy a camera with a prime lens then, since that's usually the best way of simple photography. Back in the day, most film cameras came with prime lenses as their kit lenses, none of this short range small aperture zoom stuff. 50mm f/1.8 were often a common kit lens for most cameras.

Tutorials, there were none that I remember using specifically since it really is still photography - there's surprisingly little difference, it's just a different way of working and a different way of capturing the images really. I thoroughly enjoy shooting with all metal, all manual cameras though.

I hope this alarmingly lengthy reply is helpful!
 
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Si,

I have read you post with a great deal of interest and I will now set aside to art of film development and processing, I let the pros do that.

I would say to you this, If you are proficient with digikal photography then you will have the know how for film it is the same the only difference is the process.

Switch your digikal to manual and apart from maybe a light meter there you go film work.

I have tried to simplify this to show you that it is easy as pie, well almost.:)
 
donutagain said:
first a little bit of reading about rangefinders v slr's
http://www.photozone.de/slr-vs-rangefinder

personaly for a first film camera i'd go for an slr ,,with a 50mm lens on the front .
theres quite a few to look for ,,pentax, nikon ,olympus, canon ,minolta ,etc i use nikon fm's
040_800x600_.jpg

most film cameras have light seals around the door and doorhinge ,and a small piece of foam under the mirror that acts as a damper ,these can go off and need replacing , but its not a hard job just a bit time consuming ,some need batteries to fire the shutter others only to work the light meter ,but i think that using film makes you think more before you push the button ,
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Learn something everyday...never knew there was a FM3 :)
 
Lots of great advice, just one little bit i'd add...

don't get too bent out of shape about film cameras with batteries. It's not like a Digital SLR where the batteries run everything, and therefore are huge rechargeables. Batteries in film cameras fall into a few categories.

1) small button cell batteries that just power the lightmeter. Occasionally hard to source the originals, as they were mercury cells, and Health and Safety has rightly decided that this was a no-no. There are usually adaptors to allow modern batteries, or in some cases you can get the cameras re-calibrated to cope with the higher voltages of modern cells. Either way, they last AGES - read 2-3 years for a cell, and if you're worried about it, gaffa tape a spare on onto your camera strap - you won't even notice it's there. Even if the battery dies, generally, you'll be able to continue shooting, as all the shutter release gubbins will be clockwork rather than motorised.

2) small conventional batteries. Common in the slightly more modern cameras with electrically controlled shutter releases, these use batteries similar to the ones in remote keyfobs. Cameras using these cells, use them to control the metering and occasionally certain P/A/S/M modes. A prime example would be the Canon A-1. Again, you may need to replace the battery when you purchase the camera, but the battery will last ages, provided you remember to switch the camera off when you finish shooting. When the battery does die though, you'll have a brick - same as the digital, so you WILL need to carry a spare cell with you - again gaffa tape and your camera strap will serve you right.

3) Full automated cameras. These are sort of the last gasp of 35mm cameras - for example the Canon EOS-3, Nikon F5. They use modern glass - full AF, PASM modes, you name it, and are pretty much the same as shooting a modern DLSR apart from you've only 36 frames to go at. These cameras run on either Large Lithium batteries, Dedicated rechargeables, or a big bunch of AA batteries in a grip/motordrive similar to DSLR's. As an example - my EOS-3 runs on a 2CR5 lithium battery. In the manual, it states that the battery should be good for around 50 films - 1800 frames. This can be seriously reduced however if you regularly use IS/VR lenses. The motors in the image stabilisers can chew through batteries quite a bit quicker - I think I killed my last battery in around 15 rolls. I now use a grip and AA rechargeables if I'm going to be using the 70-200 L IS :LOL: Again - it's housebrick time if the battery dies and you've not got a spare on you. Keep one/two in your camera case. If not, you'll regret it.
 
One of the most sophisticated cameras made, that you can buy for peanuts and no one likes it because it's ugly is the... drum roll....Canon T70... tough, reliable, runs on two AA batteries, built in winder, "safety shift" for when you have cocked up the aperture setting (i.e. exposure) etc etc etc and who cares if you drop it or lose it.

http://www.mir.SPAM/rb/photography/companies/canon/fdresources/SLRs/t70/index.htm
 
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TheBigYin said:
I've also been looking around up in the Mod's garrett accomodation, and I've found the cupboard where they keep the ban-hammer... so "divvna tak the pish" :LOL:
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If I were to take the **** you would know.:cool:
 
excalibur2 said:
One of the most sophisticated cameras made, that you can buy for peanuts and no one likes it because it's ugly is the... drum roll....Canon T70... tough, reliable, runs on two AA batteries, built in winder, "safety shift" for when you have cocked up the aperture setting (i.e. exposure) etc etc etc and who cares if you drop it or lose it.
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Surely this doesn't meet the 'no battery help' criteria?
 
Amazing!! So much here to help me, thanks so much to you all :), i would quote you all but the post would be far too long :D Thanks again team, knew i could rely on you lot :)

The Voigtlander for £25-£35 is sounding awesome, beautiful camera as well so that helps. Think id still prefer an SLR though but the Nikon FM3 is far too expensive for me atm (especially considering id need two of them) but the pentax spotmatic F and Nikon F401 are probably up there with the voigtlander at the top of the list i think.

@freecom - Na no real top end budget just dont want to spend a lot, but i think id be happy doing the CLA as well, how much would that usually cost and where would i go for such a service? How often would that need doing as well?

Also, finally, im not hugely bothered about a battery being present or not, i just think id like to keep it simple and basic. Id be happy with a couple of AA's or something as ive got loads of eneloop rechargeables anyway so no extra cost there so the Canon T70 is sounding pretty sweet as well. Not bothered about it being ugly as it does what is needed, its more about the fleshy organic thing behind the camera that the camera itself though but i think the T70 has plenty of character about it so id be happy with that but admittedly its not as high on the list as the others mentioned above due to the amount of features, would prefer simple and basic leaving it down to the photographer to get it right. Anyone can take a good picture on a digital SLR so id prefer to be able to learn the skill itself and potentially take some outstanding photos (although i do realise this will take some practice) and im even considering taking it to a wedding im attending next march :) ... that is instead of my dSLR :) not sure if thats wise though, might leave my dSLR in the car just in case lol.

Any more recommendations?

Thanks again all, youve been very helpful as usual :)

Si
 
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Miles Whitehead - website here - does a CLA for £40-50, which isn't bad considering it requires a full strip down of the camera for adjustment. Once CLA'd, you probably would have a camera for decades to be honest, as long as all the parts are mechanically still good. It's difficult to say because of course these things depend on usage, on the environment they are stored and used in, but there's no reason why the vast majority won't last for decades; after all, they have already been going pretty strong for the first few decades of their lives before you bought them!

Recommendations? Personal preference, but avoid the T70 and T90 - too much electronics, too much possibility of failure, LCDs have a limited service life and they have far too many maintenance problems to be worth it. Also horrid plastic...

Nikon F2/F3/FM2/FE2/FM/FE
Pentax MX/LX/KX/K1000
Canon F1
Olympus OM1/OM2/OM3/OM4
 
freecom2 said:
.......but avoid the T70 and T90 - too much electronics, too much possibility of failure, LCDs have a limited service life and they have far too many maintenance problems to be worth it. Also horrid plastic...
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ermm so you reckon after about 30 years from new, my two T70s are going to explode soon :eek: :LOL:
 
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excalibur2 said:
ermm so you reckon after about 30 years from new, my two T70s are going to explode soon :eek: :LOL:
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If you have personally kept them and used them and stored them properly since new, then that's a different situation - in OPs case, and for most of us, we'd be buying them with 30 years baggage of potential bad storage and potential haphazard previous owners. You may have strived and be proud to have kept them in good nick, but that doesn't mean that an eBay T70 is going to be the same; far far from it. In a camera which relies on electronics, that makes it more of a risk than a camera that is purely mechanical. If I bought a T70/90 and say an Canon F1 or Nikon FM2, I know which one is more likely to come through the door fully functioning.
 
freecom2 said:
If you have personally kept them and used them and stored them properly since new, then that's a different situation - in OPs case, and for most of us, we'd be buying them with 30 years baggage of potential bad storage and potential haphazard previous owners. You may have strived and be proud to have kept them in good nick, but that doesn't mean that an eBay T70 is going to be the same; far far from it. In a camera which relies on electronics, that makes it more of a risk than a camera that is purely mechanical. If I bought a T70/90 and say an Canon F1 or Nikon FM2, I know which one is more likely to come through the door fully functioning.
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My two Canon T70s were bought separately on ebay two years ago, I sorta got them as extras, but now are the ones I use most out of my umpteen film cameras. To get the "full" pleasure of film (with one camera) it has to be a Canon (or Pentax) ONLY because:- many of the lenses are easy to get and fairly cheap also I can use any screw lens made and often use the VG metering on my T70 for my Pentax, Meyer, Helios etc screw lenses.
 
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Hi

I was in a very similar boat a couple of months ago. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my DSLR but now, after ten years, I am an avid film user also! I also have a bit of a problem wherein I am addicted to Ebay now :)

Anyway. I now own a LOT of film cameras and I use most of them daily. The three that get the most use and that I highly recommend are:

Minolta X-300 - Got this for less than £20. Came with a gorgeous 50mm prime and a 70-210mm zoom. It is such a lovely thing. Takes two of the tiny fob type batteries for the meter but they are very cheap from Jacobs here in town so I always have spares.

Voigtlander Vitomatic 2a - A gorgeous little German camera. No batteries and takes lovely photos.

And of course, Olympus Trip 35. I love it. It is ace :D
 
@freecom - awesome thanks for that mate Bookmarked that one :) Looking at the olympus's atm damn they are nice :)

@Andy - Thanks for that andy will have a peruse of that when i get home tomorrow :) (my mobile broadband isnt agreeing with the website for some reason).

@Norters - Yeah i dont think ill be ditching my my digital any time soon but i wouldnt mind to have a film as my number 1 go-to camera. The two that you listed.... i think im in love with that x-300 :) How easy is it to get lenses (what mount is it?) for it?

Thanks again all :)

Si
 
I am no expert but some kind soul on these boards informed me it takes MD lenses. They are plentiful on the Ebay although I keep losing in my attempts to win a 28mm. I am currently the winning bidder on a couple but I know I won't win!

Jacobs here in town also have some lenses pre-owned but the prices are a bit on the silly side.
 
thats nice. Just been lookinga t one of them at london camera exchanges website. Im thinking its top of my list atm. prices seem reasonable aswell (approx £50 with a lens of some sort)
 
I think I got lucky with the price tbh. To say I was happy nobody else bid after me is an understatement! It's a lovely camera, and with the 50mm attached it's nice and light.
 
@wallboy - how much did you get it for if you dont mind me asking?
 
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chocky said:
thats nice. Just been lookinga t one of them at london camera exchanges website. Im thinking its top of my list atm. prices seem reasonable aswell (approx £50 with a lens of some sort)
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its a good camera, i used it mainly for family shots of the kids growing up,(did i say kids growing up LOL), i will carry on using it for fun factor good luck in choosing your camera (y)
 
never been a huge film follower, but I find myself dipping my toe in now and again.....just gor a Ricoh KR5 Super with XR rikenon 50mm for £16 +del :)
 
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With film cameras what matters is the lens, the body is basically just to block/unblock light from reaching the film when you press/depress the shutter. What body you get should be decided on the functions (aperture priority, meter, etc) and the condition. You can pick up a used nikon fe (it relies of batteries to operate the shutter, but can work at 1/90 without) with a decent nikkor lens for pretty cheap.

(apologies if anyone's already said any of this, I've had no time to read most of the other comments)
 
TheBigYin said:
I've also been looking around up in the Mod's garrett accomodation, and I've found the cupboard where they keep the ban-hammer... so "divvna tak the pish" :LOL:
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Just make sure you don't ban yourself :nuts:
 
cowasaki said:
Just make sure you don't ban yourself :nuts:
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It's okay Darren - despite working with computers a fair bit, I've always been quite practical - could always saw wood without cutting myself, and I've a fair idea of what end of the hammer to hold, to knock in nails without hitting my thumb. ;)
 
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