Newbie needing advice before buying

Peter69

Peter69

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Peter
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Hi, This is my first post and I'm seeking advise.

With the hope of not starting another Canon v Nikon type arguement, I'm looking for my first DSLR.
My photo interests are snap, landscapes, sports & wildlife. I want the facility to take HDR images.
Sports images will be surf, ski etc. I will be about 100m from the action and in poor light i.e. night water ski jumping.

I was thinking the D5100 as it has good low light capabilities and is reasonably priced with a 55-105 lens. Slightly cheaper with a 18-55 lens

I've looked at my current photos over the passed 2 years and most were taken with focal lengths of 20-90mm (35eq). and then a jump to +200mm.

The other camera I was looking at was a 650D but its quite a bit more.

Advice on which body and lenses would be much appreciated. Everything has to be on a budget but I would rather save and wait for the right bit of kit.

Thanks
 
The D5200 was suggested here for someone that had considered the d5100 and canon 650d.

I have no experience of Nikon as I'm a Canon user, nor have I used the 650d other than very briefly in a store.

Saving for the best kit is a good idea, but while you're doing that you could be using soemthing that you can afford right now!

Getting kit that's good for photos of fast moving subjects in poor light from that kind of distance isn't cheap, as it requires a fast lens and good high iso performance from the camera.
 
Hi Peter

Camera Price Buster is worth a look for prices of different options of bodies / lenses and their cost http://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk

Do you know anyone who has a DSLR ? Can you have a play with theirs and see how you get on with it ?

The bodies you've mentioned are good and will certainly perform well, there isn't much of a benefit of 1 over the other, it is very much a personal thing, what 1 person likes another won't - bear this in mind when reading reviews / recommendations etc.

If you can, try to get to a shop and have a play with both makes, see which feels the most comfortable in your hand, see which buttons fall right for you, see who's menu system feels the most intuitive...

Lens wise, I would certainly get the 18-55 kit lens, Canon wise, the Canon 55-250IS is a belter of a lens, esp for the price and would fit very nicely with the 18-55IS kit lens. Then you start spending serious money and join the rest of us - Broke :lol:
 
I think the d5100 would be a good option but it all comes down to budget. More mp can produce more noise at higher iso's so the d5100 might be a better low light performer than the d5200. However with the 24mp you have the opportunity to crop pictures more which could come in handy with shooting water sports.
 
Thanks for the help guys.

I've played in store with quite a lot up to d300 & £60d. I don't like the full frame cameras as they didn't fit comfortable in my hand.

Both Nikon ans Canon's buttons are ok for me as I haven't trained my hands yet but didn't have to go feeling around for either.

As always I want the 650D's HDR capability or bracketing range of a 6D and 650D's touch screen in the D5100 body with the D5100 sensor. Anyone got a screwdriver and soldering iron?:)

The bigest lens I can afford atm is the Sigma 70-200 f2.8. I'm hoping this with the D5100 low noise high ISO will give me what I want. Would the 900 flash help?

Any other suggerstions for my bag? I'm thinking wide angle fast lens, flash & bag.

And what starter filers, if any would I need for landscapes. The blue haze I get is really annoying and PS only goes so far to remove it.

Thanks again guys. Shopping tomorrow.:thumbs:
 
Surf, ski (snow and water)? IMO, you'd be best off with a system with good weatherproofing and IIRC, Pentax offer the best VFM in that respect.

At a guess, what you want to shoot will be at the very limit of almost any flash's effective range, so I would put that money towards lenses instead. In fact, at 100m range, the waterski jumper may barely even see the flash let alone be illuminated by it (unless the flash is mounted on the jump...)

I see that you already seem to know about and understand a little of crop factors and 35mm equivalence, so remember that Nikon, Pentax and Sony (IIRC) crop bodies have a crop factor of 1.5x and Canons 1.6x (in most consumer cases - some Canon pro bodies used to use a 1.2x crop IIRC), worth taking into account when looking for apparent reach.

Oh, welcome to TP by the way!
 
Nod said:
At a guess, what you want to shoot will be at the very limit of almost any flash's effective range, so I would put that money towards lenses instead. In fact, at 100m range, the waterski jumper may barely even see the flash let alone be illuminated by it (unless the flash is mounted on the jump...)
Click to expand...

:$ oops, school boy error. 100ft/ 30m.

I was thinking thinking SB900. Nikon think it will do the job if I use a faster iso. But the SB700 is cheaper with cashback & I'm tight.

I did look at the Pentax. I hope not to get wet myself nor the camera & I'll be too poor to go skiing after buying this lot.

Looking at Park Cameras. £419 D5100 18-55 + £144 nikon 55-200 + bag + spare battery + maybe £369 10-20 sigma or £249 Sigma 50 f1.4 + maybe SB700 flash £229.

Procamerashop for Sigma 70-200f2.5 £570

Sound about right???
send donations to cameras and stuff help (CASH for short :D )
 
The problem I see with any of the camera's you've mentioned and yes in terms of ISO performance the D5100 is probably better than the canon at the higher ISO range 3200-6400, but I have reservations that you will achieve anything worth while because of one of the subjects you want to photograph, i.e. action photography in low light situations, I just don't think you'll achieve great results with the D5100 because when they test these camera's ISO performance, they use static objects rather than moving ones and if they did a test on a moving subject in low light, I think the camera's performance to track the subject at higher ISOs would suffer, that's why you pay £2500-5000 for the pro bodies because their low light performances are lightyears ahead of the comsumer models.
 
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Peter69 said:
Thanks for the help guys.

I've played in store with quite a lot up to d300 & £60d. I don't like the full frame cameras as they didn't fit comfortable in my hand.

Both Nikon ans Canon's buttons are ok for me as I haven't trained my hands yet but didn't have to go feeling around for either.

As always I want the 650D's HDR capability or bracketing range of a 6D and 650D's touch screen in the D5100 body with the D5100 sensor. Anyone got a screwdriver and soldering iron?:)

The bigest lens I can afford atm is the Sigma 70-200 f2.8. I'm hoping this with the D5100 low noise high ISO will give me what I want. Would the 900 flash help?

Any other suggerstions for my bag? I'm thinking wide angle fast lens, flash & bag.

And what starter filers, if any would I need for landscapes. The blue haze I get is really annoying and PS only goes so far to remove it.

Thanks again guys. Shopping tomorrow.:thumbs:
Click to expand...

I'm not very clued up on Canon. What can the 650d do HDR wise the d5100 can not do? A lot of people get pretty bored of it pretty quickly (such as me) so i wouldn't worry too much.
 
rjbell said:
I'm not very clued up on Canon. What can the 650d do HDR wise the d5100 can not do? A lot of people get pretty bored of it pretty quickly (such as me) so i wouldn't worry too much.
Click to expand...

Basically bracketing, the ability to take 3 images of the same scene at different exposures by the camera. Thats how a HDR image is created, combining several different images at different exposures using a programme like photomatix.
 
I would steer clear of the in-camera hdr processing I have always found it does some very odd stuff with your images.
If your looking at playing with hdr all you need to do is take exposure brackets then combine them on the PC and tone map them using a dedicated piece of hdr software, photomatix seems to be the standard, however I'm not a big fan of it, and prefer dynamic hdr or niksofts software, that's just a personal opinion though
 
pete.rush said:
Basically bracketing, the ability to take 3 images of the same scene at different exposures by the camera. Thats how a HDR image is created, combining several different images at different exposures using a programme like photomatix.
Click to expand...

Yes i know all this, but you can do this on the d5100 as with most modern dslr's. I was thinking they work talking about a specific feature the 650d has that others don't.
 
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rjbell said:
Yes i know all this, but you can do this on the d5100 as with most modern dslr's. I was thinking they work talking about a specific feature the 650d has that others don't.
Click to expand...

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D5100/D5100A.HTM

The D5100 is also Nikon's first SLR to include in-camera high dynamic range (HDR) imaging capability. A single press of the shutter release captures two shots, with the first intentionally underexposed, and the second overexposed. The two are then combined in-camera to yield a final exposure with much wider dynamic range than is possible in a single exposure

But by all accounts the results ain't great

The Nikon D5100 also offers three frame exposure bracketing, with a step size between exposures of up to 2 EV..
Click to expand...
 
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the 650D shoots 3 frames and outputs in raw. The D5100 uses 2 images and outputs jpeg only. Also the 650D has a 5fps v 4fps.

At present I merge with PS CS6 and adjust the tone with Photomatrix. I use upto 7 frames. of course this might not be needed as the D5100's 13ev dynamic range has to be higher then my Samsung WB500.

There is no way I can streatch to a full frame unless they work with no lens!
 
pete.rush said:
The problem I see with any of the camera's you've mentioned and yes in terms of ISO performance the D5100 is probably better than the canon at the higher ISO range 3200-6400, but I have reservations that you will achieve anything worth while because of one of the subjects you want to photograph, i.e. action photography in low light situations, I just don't think you'll achieve great results with the D5100 because when they test these camera's ISO performance, they use static objects rather than moving ones and if they did a test on a moving subject in low light, I think the camera's performance to track the subject at higher ISOs would suffer, that's why you pay £2500-5000 for the pro bodies because their low light performances are lightyears ahead of the comsumer models.
Click to expand...

At the end of the day it's easy to create a HDR image even with one image, but I think you're blinding the whole issue with HDR capabilities of these cameras.

One of the main challenge the OP what to use either of these cameras for is there performance in low light on moving subjects and personally I don't think either model is capable of doing this to any degree of success.

As for the other photographic subjects the OP wants to photograph, either model would cope reasonably well and both cameras can bracket 3 images.
 
Peter69 said:
the 650D shoots 3 frames and outputs in raw. The D5100 uses 2 images and outputs jpeg only. Also the 650D has a 5fps v 4fps.

At present I merge with PS CS6 and adjust the tone with Photomatrix. I use upto 7 frames. of course this might not be needed as the D5100's 13ev dynamic range has to be higher then my Samsung WB500.

There is no way I can streatch to a full frame unless they work with no lens!
Click to expand...

Oh right, that is a good feature if you shoot a lot of hdr i can see why thats tempting you.
 
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Now I am confused :thinking:

I've just been advised to buy the body and a Tamron 18-300 (270?) lens. The reasons given are
The Tamron is better built then the 2 Nikon Lenses (18-55,55-200), It has a metal coupling/thread and front glass instead of the Nikon plastic thread and lens.

Also it was demonstrated as producing much better background colours.

(intersting shop though, as he wouldn't give me a price for the D5100 as he said I need a D3200)

I've read some reviews but not sure if this advice is correct for my needs (nikon twin lenses are £169, Tamron is £370)
 
Peter69 said:
Now I am confused :thinking:

I've just been advised to buy the body and a Tamron 18-300 (270?) lens. The reasons given are
The Tamron is better built then the 2 Nikon Lenses (18-55,55-200), It has a metal coupling/thread and front glass instead of the Nikon plastic thread and lens.

Also it was demonstrated as producing much better background colours.

(intersting shop though, as he wouldn't give me a price for the D5100 as he said I need a D3200)

I've read some reviews but not sure if this advice is correct for my needs (nikon twin lenses are £169, Tamron is £370)
Click to expand...


This is the sort of salesman that's getting all the shops shut down. The tamron superzoom will not be better than the 2 nikon lenses, and if you feel 16mp is enough for you then go with the d5100. The d3200 has no bracketing at all which is one of your main criteria, but surprise surprise like the tamron lens he recommends its more expensive. Seems like they guy didn't listen to you al all, just after your money.
 
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For the figure you put up of the D5100 & kit lens, I'd say switch to the Pentax K30 (far better low noise performance) or a pre-owned K5 or D7000, if you must have one of the two big brands.
Don't overlook the Tokina 11-16mm as an alternative to the Sigma 10-20mm.
If you ventured into Pentax territory, you've the 40mm f1.4 Ltd for a slightly wider portrait.

If speed is of the essence, then a Sony A57 is good on the noise, but with 11fps, may be the better option over the K30's 6fps/K5's 7fps, and whatever the D7000's is (6fps?)
 
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Hi Peter

Night water ski jumping sounds like a blast to do but challenging to photograph, especially from 100m away !

To do this you are going to need a decent body with fast, long glass. I have no idea of the lighting in such situations but from shooting floodlight football I think you are going to struggle without getting a seriously good body plus glass. I may be wrong but think the cheapest way to do this is with a Canon 7D (or Nikon equivalent ?) plus Sigma 120-300f2.8 os.

I cannot see a less good body/lens combination giving you the AF ability, frame rate and shutter speed you are likely to require.

Good luck with your choices !

Best wishes.

Gary
 
PJ S said:
For the figure you put up of the D5100 & kit lens, I'd say switch to the Pentax K30 (far better low noise performance) or a pre-owned K5 or D7000, if you must have one of the two big brands.
Don't overlook the Tokina 11-16mm as an alternative to the Sigma 10-20mm.
If you ventured into Pentax territory, you've the 40mm f1.4 Ltd for a slightly wider portrait.

If speed is of the essence, then a Sony A57 is good on the noise, but with 11fps, may be the better option over the K30's 6fps/K5's 7fps, and whatever the D7000's is (6fps?)
Click to expand...
the d5100, d7000, k30 and k5 all have the same sensor. It is said that pentax has squeezed a little bit more out of the sensor in terms of iso performance, but its not far better. Infact dxo figures show the d5100 as a better performer than the k30, but by such a tiny amount its not worth mentioning.
 
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As does the Sony A57.
I was going by the DPReview comparison graphs, from memory, so maybe 'far' was too strong an adjective.
 
Peter69 said:
Now I am confused :thinking:

I've just been advised to buy the body and a Tamron 18-300 (270?) lens. The reasons given are
The Tamron is better built then the 2 Nikon Lenses (18-55,55-200), It has a metal coupling/thread and front glass instead of the Nikon plastic thread and lens.

Also it was demonstrated as producing much better background colours.

(intersting shop though, as he wouldn't give me a price for the D5100 as he said I need a D3200)

I've read some reviews but not sure if this advice is correct for my needs (nikon twin lenses are £169, Tamron is £370)
Click to expand...

If you do a comparison of the D3200 v D5100 then there are some advantages to the D3200 (being the newer camera) especially on shutter lag (i.e. the time its takes to open and close the shutter before refocusing when you taking multible images), OK its only 9 autofocus points v 11, ISO range is 12800 v 25600 and MPs 24 v 16, but very much the same in all other aspects.

But neither camera would perform very well under low light and moving subjects.

The D7000 has a much better autofocus system for your action photograph but has similar ISO performance to the D5100.

As for lenses, for your action photograph, the faster the better. For low light situations, the minimum requirement would be a f2.8 lens, but most sports photographers tend to use the faster primes like the 135mm or 200mm lenses.

The hyperzoom lens are aimed at people who used a P&S and have moved to a DSLR and hate changing lenses even though they've bought into a system that you use the right lens to capture the best image. Theses lenses promise the one lens solution, but deliver very average performance (happy snapper holiday shots) and definitely won't be any good for action photography in anything other than perfect conditions.

As for the comparison between the nikon 18-55 + 55-200 v the tamron 18-270 the salesman probably right interms of their performance, the 2 nikon lenses are aimed at the budget users. You would definitely be better off getting the sigma 70-200mm f2.8 you mention earlier in the thread rather than the 55-200mm.

But I stress again for the LOW LIGHT ACTION PHOTOGRAPHY none of these options (D3200, D5100, D7000 or Sony A57) will only give you a degree of limited success.
 
Thanks for all your advice.

Taking the night jump photos is only a very small section of what I want to photograph. I could only find f2 telephoto lenses and they were megabucks. The only reason to buy the nikon 55-200 is its light and only £100.

If any one has a 32/100flash and long fast lens I would be interested in seeing what results in gives at 100ft
 
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For information on the Night Jump shots I obtained a suitable exposure (if that is the right term) with my point and shoot with these settings:
1/15" f5.8 ISO 800 229mm (35eq) cropped by 1.74 (no flash)

By Curt's calculation (an excel exposure calculator I use) this could be 1/125" f2.8 iso1667
Which I guess is pushing the iso.

I've read a rule of thumb of shutter speed = 1/focal length?

I tried to upload the image but no luck :(
 
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