Newbie needs advice ...UPDATE using advice received

[Asha]

Shot at 2011-12-18

Took myself off today to have a go at some motocross shots.

Have only tried this once before sometime ago and was very dissapointed with the results not least of all as I had no idea how to pan.

I have learnt a little since then but have a long way to go.

The location is never in sun and the lighting calls for a fast lens hence i used my niftyfifty for this particular shot.

For me, I'm reasonably pleased with it but it lacks sharpness ( admittedly I'm comparing to other superb motorsports shots that I've seen on TP)

I'm not sure if it's the panning , the focussing or the shutter speed that has let me down..... If it's the panning then I guess practice makes perfect. If its the focusing then what do I do as I tried both manual and auto and got pretty much similar results. If it's the shutter speed, then I realise that I could up it by increasing the ISO but the D80 tends to throw quite a lot of noise in its images after 400.

Any offers of help much appreciated...I may put some more pics up later.

 

[Asha]

Shot at 2011-12-18

Here's another!

 

[pete.rush]

It depends what subject you are photographing, what speed the subject is travelling at, what lens your are using and getting the right shutter speed / aperture to match to create the right motion blur. shutter speeds of 1/30 1/60 or even 1/125 aren't easy to get right. So apply the 1 over focal length rule explained below.

A common rule of thumb for estimating how fast the exposure needs to be for a given focal length is the one over focal length rule. This states that for a 35 mm camera, the exposure time needs to be at least as fast as one over the focal length in seconds. In other words, when using a 200 mm focal length on a 35 mm camera, the exposure time needs to be at least 1/200 seconds-- otherwise blurring may be hard to avoid. Keep in mind that this rule is just for rough guidance; some may be able to hand hold a shot for much longer or shorter times than this rule estimates. For users of digital cameras with cropped sensors, one needs to convert into a 35 mm equivalent focal length.

That will help with setting up the right shutter settings.

Now, Panning is a technique which requires mastering over time, its not something that you can instantly do and repeat. It require training you body to become familiar with the motion, thus it become almost automatic. What this will achieve is a smooth pan, something that is not easy to master.

Pick up the subject early, focus and pan with the subject, take them image when subject fills 2/3 of the frame, continue the pan after the shot, try and avoid stopping the pan or jerking at the edge will also aid in good results.

You are able to capture pans at slower shutter speeds, but to get everything right in the shot takes practice and a very smooth pan movement, taken at 1/100sec, but generally, I'm taking shots at 1/200 or 1/320 sec because of the speed of the bikes and slightly slower for cars....

1/100 sec

1/320 sec

or even 1/640 sec, but still generate motion blur

As for a tripod or monopod, it depends on your lens. Mainly used for the larger lenses like the 300. 400, 500mm primes due to weight, you don't need support for a 70-300mm lens.

Feet position is important to give you a base from which to pan you body, as describe above, you then need to pick the action up early, panning with the on coming bike/car, then when it fills 2/3 screen start to take your 2 -3 images, recompose and take the next shots, remembering to continue the motion after taking the shots, that's also very important.......

Fire single shots not a burst, bursts are a waste of time for a plain old panning shot. Yes you might miss the moment when Elvis and ET climb out the sun roof and roof surf around the track to the sound of the Beach Boys, but... Concentrate on getting your timing right.

Don't shoot into the sun. That amazing corner you (and everyone else with a camera) has discovered where the cars/bikes come inches away from your face is worthless if you are shooting into the sun. Try to work out if/when the sun will have moved off and come back then.

If it is a bright sunny day, consider using a 1 or 2 stop ND filter to get the shutter speed down. Not a problem normally at 1/250th, but as you slow it down you will have problems.

Slow(ish) pans don't work if the vehicle is not on smooth ground. Its generally rubbish for non-tarmac racing as the bumps blur the subject.

Practice. Lots. Post your results up in the motorsport section on here and let everyone else give you some help - the motorsport section is pretty friendly!

 

[Asha]

Wow thank you Peter for that informative reply.....very helpful.

It is probably going to be new year before I get a chance to shoot this location again but I will be putting some of your advice into practice.

I tend to be a bit of a slow learner but once i get the hang of something, generally I master it well!......I could try practicing with the traffic on the promenade here but I think I'll get questioned as to what I'm doing!!!! lol

 

[mongrel]

Asha, Pete has given some excellent advice.

One of the chaps I shoot alongside at the British Superbikes is absolutely awesome at panning, I would take years of practice to get half as good as him. He said to me that his best panning shots are 1/15 maximum!!!! I can't get anything sharp anywhere near this! As Pete says, practice, practice, practice.....

here's one of my few half decent efforts! shot at 1/500 It's not perfect but Hicky is doing 160mph+

Cheers

 

[Soupz]

Well these guys have given you some excellent advice there, good read even for myself. All i can say is that your second shot would look great with the dirt at the bottom cropped off.

 

[jim_j]

Great advise from everyone, I would also add that you need to stop down the aperture. I see both were shot at f2.2 which will give an extremely shallow DoF, I used to aim for f8 upwards depending on the light, and just to reinforce the good advice - you must carry on panning after the shot.

 

[arwesa]

Im not into motorsport photography, however I can see a parallel between panning for photography and shooting, and as has been mentioned stance must have a part to play.

In shooting, if something is crossing you, you face your body towards the kill zone and wind/twist back to the point you are going to pick up the target, then swing through as it crosses you, maintaining lead and taking the shot where you planned. this means at the critical point your body will be balanced and you have the ability to swing through maintain your lead and kill the target... to me panning for photography must be exactly the same.

 

[Asha]

Well these guys have given you some excellent advice there, good read even for myself. All i can say is that your second shot would look great with the dirt at the bottom cropped off.

Thank you. I have other shots with the riders in the ar like this but most do not have the ground in them. I posted this one thinking that the ground gave perspective to the height that the rider had jumped but i can see that it does kind of dominate the picture.

AmI better trying to include some ground or simply focus on the rider in the air??

 

[Asha]

Great advise from everyone, I would also add that you need to stop down the aperture. I see both were shot at f2.2 which will give an extremely shallow DoF, I used to aim for f8 upwards depending on the light, and just to reinforce the good advice - you must carry on panning after the shot.

Yes another mistake on my part as I thought I needed a fast shutter speed to capture the shot and with light being poor I opened the aperture toget the exposure as against raising the ISO (and noise) further.

Now thanks to the help from you guys I realise I can stop down a little and slow up the shutter speed

 

[Asha]

Im not into motorsport photography, however I can see a parallel between panning for photography and shooting, and as has been mentioned stance must have a part to play.

In shooting, if something is crossing you, you face your body towards the kill zone and wind/twist back to the point you are going to pick up the target, then swing through as it crosses you, maintaining lead and taking the shot where you planned. this means at the critical point your body will be balanced and you have the ability to swing through maintain your lead and kill the target... to me panning for photography must be exactly the same.

This is very interesting as I used to clay pigeon shoot as a young man so I understand fully what you are saying....not forgetting the fact of having to be ever so slightly ahead of the target when actually firing not unlike what Peter said about firing the shutter when the rider is 2/3 into the frame.

 

[Asha]

Asha, Pete has given some excellent advice.

One of the chaps I shoot alongside at the British Superbikes is absolutely awesome at panning, I would take years of practice to get half as good as him. He said to me that his best panning shots are 1/15 maximum!!!! I can't get anything sharp anywhere near this! As Pete says, practice, practice, practice.....

here's one of my few half decent efforts! shot at 1/500 It's not perfect but Hicky is doing 160mph+

Cheers

"Half decent shot"....I would be well pleased with that.....I do have the advantage that the location is very much "open" and railings/ barriers only pose a minimal obstacle so the potential for some cracking shots is there...Just need a decent photographer!!!

 

[Asha]

1.

Shot at 2011-12-20

2.

Shot at 2011-12-20

3.

Shot at 2011-12-20

Going on what was said by Soupz about cropping the dirt from the bottom of the pic, I'm wondering now which out of these 3 examples are composed the best ( ignore the quality..this is simply to see wether more ground is better or not)

Personally to me it is obvious that te rider is in the air but at what height....No 1 gives a vague idea, No 2 is more definitive as the ground is in the shot whereas No 3 somehow looks like the rider has been "superimposed" onto a white sky background..............which composure is going to work best do you think?

 

[kevstar]

Hi Asha some great advice been given but out of the last post I think No2 is composed the best I have a 50mm lens and found it quite hard to get a good shot with motorsport. I 'm using a 18-250 lens at the moment but looking into a 70-200 F2.8 or F4 lens some very shape photos on here using those lens.

 

[Asha]

Hi Asha some great advice been given but out of the last post I think No2 is composed the best I have a 50mm lens and found it quite hard to get a good shot with motorsport. I 'm using a 18-250 lens at the moment but looking into a 70-200 F2.8 or F4 lens some very shape photos on here using those lens.

lol I'm presently on the hunt too for similar F/2.8 lenses ...zooms or primes ....
Had a couple of responses regarding that on my other thread ( (http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=371864 ) but yet to take a plunge ....No immediate rush as plenty to learn in the meantime however if a decent buy comes up ........

 

[desantnik]

Lenses... you need something that is fast, really fast.

The "nasty fifty" is unlikely to deliver... not "impossible", just unlikely.

 

[Mentalblock]

I don't think it's been said, and I'm not sure it's what motor sports toggers do, but does your camera have a continuous focus mode so it stays focused on the image as you pan, rather than hunting for the focus point when you want to press the shutter?

 

[desantnik]

Da! Continuous focus mode, track your target with AF running... choose your moment.

 

[Asha]

I don't think it's been said, and I'm not sure it's what motor sports toggers do, but does your camera have a continuous focus mode so it stays focused on the image as you pan, rather than hunting for the focus point when you want to press the shutter?

Yes it does but I'm not sure that it focuses as fast as the bikes move...i was under the impression that often it is best to set a specific locationn for taking the shot, manually focus for the bikes to be in shot at that particular point then pan with them ....obviously they are out of focus initially but come into sharp focus at the preset location.
Perhaps i am a million miles off with this ..if so then do please correct me!

I have actually attempted both continuous auto focus and manual focus.
I really think the primary problem is my panning technique...I won't know until I get a chance to practice more

 

[Bobby G]

Loads of good advice from the forum Asha.

Peter makes a good point regarding panning for off-road & track, as track movement tends to be mostly horizontal whilst rally & moto have a whole lot more of everything...! My personal preference therefore is to shoot faster for off-road panning as there's other factors such as dust & muck which convey the impression of speed. These were shot at 160th & 100th though, so it can be done, but you will get a lot of rejects.

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Continuous focus & shooting modes are something I use all the time BUT, I learned the way you described; by picking a set point and hitting a single shot as the subject passes. And I still think it's a good way to practice the panning technique. I also use manual exposure as it stops the sky being blown out.

Practice though is the key but keep posting to get feedback...!!

 

[Asha]

Thanks to you guys and all your advice, I took myself back to the motocross yesterday.
This is the best (sharpest) result :

Shot at 2012-01-09

Please give your comments, advice, crit etc ....I have many many others which are more action filled but not the same quality that I wish to share and try figure where I went wrong with them.
This particular shot was shot F/8 1/100 sec 80mm

 

[Asha]

For example what mistake did I make with this one?

By null at 2012-01-09

Part of the bike is sharp ( front of engine behind the front wheel) but everywhere has various amounts of blur.......was shot at F/13 1/80 80mm so the shutter speed was practically the same as the previously posted shot.
Was it my panning at fault or did I need to increase the shutter speed?

 

[jim_j]

Hi Asha, definitely a lot of improvement, imho the problems you describe in the second shot are probably more to do with the angle the rider is approaching at, whereby the focus will be constantly changing. The first is almost parallel and will give you a longer focus window.
Probably higher ISO to allow for faster shutter speed would have been beneficial.

 

[MattyW]

Salut Asha,
Very good to see some shots of somewhere I drive past every day (if it is the track I am thinking about between Menton and Sospel.) I have been meaning to go there to take some shots every weekend for about a year now, but still haven't managed.
To me it looks like it is harder to pan and catch sharpness, as they are moving on more than one plane, I have had much more success with track events than rally or ice racing events, which i think is partly due to this.
I much prefer the composition of your first shots, but your technique seems to be better in the second batch. It seems like a bit more practice and combining the two will help you to get some real winners if you keep at it.
If it is the track I thought of, are they preparing for some bigger event soon, as it looks as though it has been built up a bit better over the past few weeks, and more banners are appearing.
Good luck with the progress mate! If I get myself together I might head down this weekend to have a crack, I have never shot motox before, and I need all the panning practice I can get before the Monte Carlo in 10 days.

 

[Asha]

Hi Asha, definitely a lot of improvement, imho the problems you describe in the second shot are probably more to do with the angle the rider is approaching at, whereby the focus will be constantly changing. The first is almost parallel and will give you a longer focus window.
Probably higher ISO to allow for faster shutter speed would have been beneficial.

Thanks Jim.....The improvement has only come thanks to TP members like you!
A lot of the photos looked pretty good on the camera screen but turned out not to be upto scratch when viewed on my computer.
To actually get one out of the many I took that was sharp with a reasonably blurred background did make me feel kinda good.
Ineed lots of practice!
I didn't want to lose the effects of movement by making the shutter speed too fast.
I know it has been mentioned about off road panning can be more challenging because of additional movements other than from left to right ( or vice versa)...;I suspect the only way around that is to increase the shutter speed.
I have a few others that composition wise i'm very pleased with ( Actually timing the shot to get the subject fully in the frame is one part of panning that i apear to have mastered quickly) ......If only they had come out pin sharp!
Sadly ImageShack has crashed so will try upload them ater.

 

[ernieh]

Nice shot, taken at the 'right' time and with good potential! I'm no expert, but looking at the shot I think the problem is that there is a pivoting movement with the engine area as the pivot. That being the case, panning is not the problem but rather a higher shutter speed is needed to take out the blur due to vertical movement.

There also seems to be some flare in places. Assuming you were using a lens hood, was there a filter on the lens?

Maybe somebody else will offer more constructve comment!


Ernie

 

[Asha]

Salut Asha,
Very good to see some shots of somewhere I drive past every day (if it is the track I am thinking about between Menton and Sospel.) I have been meaning to go there to take some shots every weekend for about a year now, but still haven't managed.
To me it looks like it is harder to pan and catch sharpness, as they are moving on more than one plane, I have had much more success with track events than rally or ice racing events, which i think is partly due to this.
I much prefer the composition of your first shots, but your technique seems to be better in the second batch. It seems like a bit more practice and combining the two will help you to get some real winners if you keep at it.
If it is the track I thought of, are they preparing for some bigger event soon, as it looks as though it has been built up a bit better over the past few weeks, and more banners are appearing.
Good luck with the progress mate! If I get myself together I might head down this weekend to have a crack, I have never shot motox before, and I need all the panning practice I can get before the Monte Carlo in 10 days.

Salut,
Yes it is circuit just a few kms out of Menton toward Sospel.
Don't know if they have some larger event coming up ..to be honest I didn't get to ask anyone..I was too busy practicing panning skills!! lol...
Hoping to get back again this coming sunday .....about 10.30am seems about best for light through to early afternoon but bear in mind they stop for a good hour or more for lunch ...also saves freezing to death once the sun drops over the hills at about 14.30 !! lol
Maybe see you there if you get chance...by the way, congrats on your recent engagement....

 

[Asha]

This has got to be my favoutite of the day :

Shot at 2012-01-09

By the way all these images are the jpegs straight out of the camera...I wanted you to see them exactly as shot so I could receive help based on the original shots

 

[MattyW]

i might try and drop down on sunday, its bloody cold in this valley, nothing like your coastal temps. I have done a bit of motorsport photography, so might be able to offer some tips and advice, but my skills are definitely not "up there" and you seem to be progressing pretty well if this thread is to be believed.
Thanks for the congrats, If i make it down on sunday, I'll look out for any dirty Nikons....

 

[mrgas]

some good shots there !!

panning is a nightmare for off road shots because of the vertical movement of the bikes due to the uneven surface they are on

I tend to use a faster shutter speed to freeze it a bit, you still get a sense of movement due to the mud and dirt etc getting thrown up

 

[Asha]

i might try and drop down on sunday, its bloody cold in this valley, nothing like your coastal temps. I have done a bit of motorsport photography, so might be able to offer some tips and advice, but my skills are definitely not "up there" and you seem to be progressing pretty well if this thread is to be believed.
Thanks for the congrats, If i make it down on sunday, I'll look out for any dirty Nikons....

if this weekend holds the same as last then it was quite warm on that particular corner Matt....I was even able to take my jacket off and I feel the cold very quickly....nonetheless be sure to wrap up...hope to see you there....look for a silver honda swing scooter parked on the bend.....I'll know when you're there ...I have a sixth sense thaty picks up on Canon users !!! lol

 

[Asha]

some good shots there !!

panning is a nightmare for off road shots because of the vertical movement of the bikes due to the uneven surface they are on

I tend to use a faster shutter speed to freeze it a bit, you still get a sense of movement due to the mud and dirt etc getting thrown up

seems the faster shutters speed is the way to go ...will be trying next week

 

[Asha]

One for you Matt ...I think you might prefer this composition

Shot at 2012-01-09

 

[Asha]

Needed more length for this shot ...some superb shots to be had!

Shot at 2012-01-09

 

[Asha]

Shot at 2012-01-09

There were a couple of nasty falls too this time.. fortuanatley no injures but sadly i missed the shots....This was the first outing in 3 weeks due to xmas etc and many riders really "threw" themselves about!

 

[Asha]

Nice shot, taken at the 'right' time and with good potential! I'm no expert, but looking at the shot I think the problem is that there is a pivoting movement with the engine area as the pivot. That being the case, panning is not the problem but rather a higher shutter speed is needed to take out the blur due to vertical movement.

There also seems to be some flare in places. Assuming you were using a lens hood, was there a filter on the lens?

Maybe somebody else will offer more constructve comment!


Ernie

No i wasn't using a filter, just the lens hood......good point actually, don't think i have a 77mm CPL...aargh!

Good point about the pivot point being the engine...It does seem to ne agreed that a highr shutter speed will help ( maybe aleviate) the blur problem.

Watch this space for next weeks update!

 

[desantnik]

Yes, as others have said, non-uniform multi axis subject movement is a problem - its a problem with ALL panning to be honest.

Even tarmac race circuits aren't smooth and acceleration and braking also cause vertical movement in cars and bikes.

In MX the rider is moving the bike around all the time too - even when in the air. Some riders more than others and it tends to be the more experienced who don't waste time in the air.

One other tip - the smaller the panned subject is in the frame, the easier it is to pan - this is due not only to the small amount of angular movement that you follow to take the shot but also because a smaller subject has less detail, so more likely to look sharper...