Night Shots on Film

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jamesv

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James
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For a while now, I have wanted to dive into film photography, mainly out of curiosity, partly for the challenge. I have been shooting digital for four years now, for the first two on a point and shoot and for the last two on a Fuji s6500fd. The instant gratification was good, until I viewed my pictures close up. On a recent trip to London, I found that there were clear problems. Firstly, the noise from the sensor was unacceptable, even on iso 100 (exposure time of ~15 sec). This is understandable; it's not a particularly expensive camera. The second problem was that the camera had difficulty focussing under low light.

So could anyone offer any advice on shooting film at night? Would the results on a low iso film be better than those on my digital camera (I would imagine so)? To be honest, I have hardly any knowledge of shooting film (haven't used a film camera since I was about 10), and I'm guessing that night time is probably not the greatest time to start, but as I said, I like a challenge.

The first problem is film. What is the best film to use for the job? There are so many options and choices available. I read that slide film is best, Fuji Provia has been reccomended on several websites. However, I have a couple of points. Processing seems to be difficult, and if I accidentally overexpose the film (likely, since its the first time I have used it), it sounds like I could loose everything. Also, I have no way of viewing my results (no projector). I read that slide film could be printed, but it is expensive (and I'm on a tight budget). Would negative film be best to go for, and which film should I buy?

I'm guessing the type of film I shoot depends on what I'm shooting. When I was in London, I went for light trails from cars, so I'd like to try that again, it was good fun and gave some nice (but noisy) results.

Second, getting the exposure right. I'm a bit unsure of how the lightmeter in a camera works (if someone could point me in the direction of an article, I would be greatful), and whether they are any good at night. If not, how do I judge the exposure? Also, what are the problems with reciprocity (probably going to have exposures greater than 30 sec), and how can I find out how much exposure time to add or take off, depending on the film?

I think thats all, sorry it's quite a lot, but I really want to get this right (probably won't happen first time though). Thanks for your time and any answers given, its greatly appreciated (y).
 
Good post, iv'e been thinking of doing this myself but not knowing how to do it iv'e left it alone, i'll be very interested in the answers.
 
What sort of camera are you using? I would suggest that the best way to meter for a night exposure is to take a digital camera

1) Put digi cam into manual

2) take a shot, look at the exposure/histogram and check its exposed correctly, if not, lengthen the exposure until it is right.

3) So, if your digicam says 1 minute f2.8 iso 800, for example, and you have iso 100 film and want to use f16 for depth of field then that works out as 8 stops difference (f2.8 to f16 is 5 stops and iso 800 to 100 is 3 stops) so 10 minutes x 8 stops is 256 minutes. Or about 4 and a quarter hours.

4) account for reciprocity. I've never dealt with colour film for long exposures, only black and white. But if you go to the manufacturers website, they normaly have a pdf that tells you how much to correct the exposure. Fuji Acros has the best reciprocity of all the black and white films, kodak and ilford some of the worst.
On average, you will be looking at maybe 1 or 2 stops of compensation. so in our example above, this becomes 8 or 16 hours!!!!!!!!!

If you're shooting in an urban environment, you are unlikely to encounter exposures this long. 1 minute was just easy for me to work out :D

As for film, Fuji Acros 100 for B&W and fuji Provia or 64T for colour slide. with colour neg, you will need to do some googling to find out. Best thing to do is get out and experiment!

Colour neg is cheap to dev and print at the local lab.

Slide is expensive to dev and will need to be scanned really or printed.

Black and white is expensive to dev at labs, but cheap to do at home. Again, needs to be printed or scanned really.

If you are going to be doing a lot of film stuff, it is worth getting a scanner like the epson 4490. Its only about £140 and will scan all your stuff for you ;)

Any more questions?
 
jamesv said:
For a while now, I have wanted to dive into film photography, mainly out of curiosity, partly for the challenge. I have been shooting digital for four years now, for the first two on a point and shoot and for the last two on a Fuji s6500fd. The instant gratification was good, until I viewed my pictures close up. On a recent trip to London, I found that there were clear problems. Firstly, the noise from the sensor was unacceptable, even on iso 100 (exposure time of ~15 sec). This is understandable; it's not a particularly expensive camera. The second problem was that the camera had difficulty focussing under low light.

So could anyone offer any advice on shooting film at night? Would the results on a low iso film be better than those on my digital camera (I would imagine so)? To be honest, I have hardly any knowledge of shooting film (haven't used a film camera since I was about 10), and I'm guessing that night time is probably not the greatest time to start, but as I said, I like a challenge.

The first problem is film. What is the best film to use for the job? There are so many options and choices available. I read that slide film is best, Fuji Provia has been reccomended on several websites. However, I have a couple of points. Processing seems to be difficult, and if I accidentally overexpose the film (likely, since its the first time I have used it), it sounds like I could loose everything. Also, I have no way of viewing my results (no projector). I read that slide film could be printed, but it is expensive (and I'm on a tight budget). Would negative film be best to go for, and which film should I buy?

I'm guessing the type of film I shoot depends on what I'm shooting. When I was in London, I went for light trails from cars, so I'd like to try that again, it was good fun and gave some nice (but noisy) results.

Second, getting the exposure right. I'm a bit unsure of how the lightmeter in a camera works (if someone could point me in the direction of an article, I would be greatful), and whether they are any good at night. If not, how do I judge the exposure? Also, what are the problems with reciprocity (probably going to have exposures greater than 30 sec), and how can I find out how much exposure time to add or take off, depending on the film?

I think thats all, sorry it's quite a lot, but I really want to get this right (probably won't happen first time though). Thanks for your time and any answers given, its greatly appreciated (y).
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Well I'm not an expert but I found the most important thing was a torch as I couldn't see what I was doing, after trying night shots again after a long gap of about 20 years.........with digital you can experiment on the spot, but with film you have to bracket e.g 2sec, 5 sec, 10 sec etc for each shot until you get experience to roughly judge a scene
Sometimes you can get a picture in 2 secs with 200 asa e.g.
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn172/chakrata/IMG073-1.jpg
 
What sort of camera are you using?
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As far as the camera is concerned, it'll be a standard film slr (I'll either need to go out and buy one or hopefully borrow my dad's old one), with a Bulb mode and hopefully something like a 28mm lens, nothing too expensive.

But if you go to the manufacturers website, they normaly have a pdf that tells you how much to correct the exposure.
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Thanks for the tip, I'll choose a film and then check and compensate for what the website says.

As for film, Fuji Acros 100 for B&W and fuji Provia or 64T for colour slide. with colour neg, you will need to do some googling to find out.
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The main worry about using slide film was the exposure time. I have read that with colour negative, if you are 1 or 2 stops out, all is not lost, but with slide film, the 1 or 2 stops can be the difference between capturing the shot, and blowing everything. Perhaps I could start with a roll of slide film and see how they turn out, or maybe it would be a better idea to start with colour negative, and then learn how the settings change the outcome of the photo.

If you are going to be doing a lot of film stuff, it is worth getting a scanner like the epson 4490. Its only about £140 and will scan all your stuff for you
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Nice hint, I'll invest in one of these if I find myself using a lot of film. To be honest, though, it's probably not worth it for me until I do.

the most important thing was a torch as I couldn't see what I was doing,
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Thanks, I'll remember to take one. I can't imagine that loading film would be easy in the dark :).

with film you have to bracket e.g 2sec, 5 sec, 10 sec etc for each shot until you get experience to roughly judge a scene
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I'll do that too, and take note of the settings I use for each shot. Then hopefully I will find out what works and what doesn't.

The one other thing I was slightly worried about was calculating the exposure in the first place, but I suppose working with a digital camera too, that shouldn't be too much trouble.

Thanks for the advice, it's appreciated. I'll sort my self out some film and see what happens.
 
No, its great, I use it exclusively for night, it looks complicated but it isn't.
I did not copy it, or re-write it so it fitted on A4, and its not in my camera bag in any way, shape or form...:)
 
No, its great, I use it exclusively for night, it looks complicated but it isn't.
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Yeah, your'e right. I just tested it by calculating an exposure for what I see outside, pointing my Fuji out of the window, and totally ignoring/disregarding what the lightmeter said. The results weren't 100% perfect, but if I had bracketed the shot, it would have got it dead on. Good stuff.
 
I have a similar app on my phone, Ev readings for diff conditions and it will give you the third exposure variable from any 2
 
Okay I went to my local camera retailer and spoke to one of the guys in there. He reccomended Ilford FP4+ for some B&W, and said he could order in some Provia 100 stuff. I got 2 rolls of the FP4 and if I'm happy, I'll go back and get some of the Provia ordered too. I also pinched my dad's slr (with permission, might I add), which has a 28mm and 50mm lens, I'm guessing the 28mm is gonna be much more useful here, but I'll take both to be safe.

My only worry is now calculating the exposure. I read the article posted by Steve, and it all makes really good sense to me, but I went into the garden, and tried to judge the exposures myself (in the dark), and then saw what the digital camera reccomended, and I was waaaay out. I was calculating exposures of ~4 sec on paper, and the digital wanted upwards of 15 sec. This was at iso 400 on the digital, at f/11. It's probably that I'm just not too confident yet, but I don't want to end up going into London, just to get a bunch of under/over exposed shots, but it might be inevitable.

Should I listen to the digital, or just go for it, leave it at home, take the chart on the website and expose from that?
 
I always used to shoot B&W film at night. I could develop and scan it myself, and it avoids some of the problems you can get with colour C41 or E6. The biggest problem I encountered shooting colour at night was the varying colour temperature of the subjects, and with very long exposures some colour shifts. It's much easier correcting colour temperature issues with a digital RAW file. Most popular London landmarks are relatively well lit at dusk / night. My view is that B&W film is great for night photography, either Ilford Delta 100 if you want very long exposures so moving people don't register, or Fuji Acros 100 for shorter exposures. This was a shot taken with an old Canon FTbn 35mm camera using Delta 100, 3 minutes at F11, think I had a 35mm lens attached. http://www.flickr.com/photos/sbell/363665497/
If I had used Acros 100 it would have reduced the exposure to around 30 seconds with no reciprocity correction, a great film. A tripod is a must.
 
steve, why do you say the ilford gives longer times than the fuji as they are both 100 iso, or is it to do with the long exposure tables
 
For colour, you want to try tungsten film. Even if there's no lighting in shot to correct, it intensifies the blueness of the sky.
 
david1701 said:
steve, why do you say the ilford gives longer times than the fuji as they are both 100 iso, or is it to do with the long exposure tables
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Ilford and Kodak B&W films have poorer reciprocity characteristics than Fuji's Acros 100. Reciprocity failure is where the box speed or ISO of a film becomes less with extremes of short or long exposures. For instance, using Ilford FP4+ as an example, once exposures go over 0.5 second, additional time has to be added to the metered exposure. 30 seconds metered becomes 155 seconds by utilising Ilfords data.

Compared to Ilford's 0.5 second, Fuji Acros 100 allows you to shoot up to 120 seconds with no correction, then only an extra half stop up to 1000 seconds, very easy to calculate. This is why it's a favourite of night photographers shooting film.
 
Okay I get you with the reciprocity stuff, and I looked at the chart on the pdf file on the Ilford website, but it doesn't seem very accurate. Does it matter if I'm a few seconds out on the exposure, or do I need to bracket like crazy (which I'll probably be doing anyway)?
 
***Does it matter if I'm a few seconds out on the exposure***

Well not, if say you are over about 15 secs.....if you get a print or CD, the lab machine will compensate anyway and for even serious errors, so you will end up with something.
 
steveb said:
Ilford and Kodak B&W films have poorer reciprocity characteristics than Fuji's Acros 100. Reciprocity failure is where the box speed or ISO of a film becomes less with extremes of short or long exposures. For instance, using Ilford FP4+ as an example, once exposures go over 0.5 second, additional time has to be added to the metered exposure. 30 seconds metered becomes 155 seconds by utilising Ilfords data.

Compared to Ilford's 0.5 second, Fuji Acros 100 allows you to shoot up to 120 seconds with no correction, then only an extra half stop up to 1000 seconds, very easy to calculate. This is why it's a favourite of night photographers shooting film.
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cunning, thats what I thought


oh and a few secs on a 2 hour exposure matters a lot less than a few secs on a 2 min exposure ;)
 
Well not, if say you are over about 15 secs.....if you get a print or CD, the lab machine will compensate anyway and for even serious errors, so you will end up with something.
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oh and a few secs on a 2 hour exposure matters a lot less than a few secs on a 2 min exposure
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I think I'm getting the idea here. I re-checked the exposure table on that website, and I think I may have calculated the exposure incorrectly. Having re-read the majority of the article, I think I judged the amount of light incorrectly on the exposure value scale. Not a major issue, but if I bracket like crazy (say 3 stops either way), I think I ought to get something useable, no? Perhaps the lightmeter on my digital will be of some use. I can see how this gets expensive, but it sounds like fun too. I can't wait to try these rolls of film out.
 
***but if I bracket like crazy (say 3 stops either way), I think I ought to get something useable***

That's the way I have done it in the past until you get experience, of course if you can get away with say setting your lens at say F4 you can cut down the secs.

My B/W shots taken about 40 years ago, I was so pleased at the time...but the important thing is to enjoy what you are doing and don't give up because of fantastic night pics on forums or flickr that you think you could never achieve.
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn172/chakrata/img373.jpg
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn172/chakrata/parl.jpg
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn172/chakrata/horseguards.jpg

Btw is there any reason why you couldn't use a digital at the same time on a subject play around till you get a promising shot with exposure..then transfer the settings over to a film camera, bracketing either way?
 
excalibur2 said:
Btw is there any reason why you couldn't use a digital at the same time on a subject play around till you get a promising shot with exposure..then transfer the settings over to a film camera, bracketing either way?
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digi won't need react the same way to long exposures - same as different films react differently

hell digi might even be linear :D

and linear is sooo cheating
 
You can use a digital camera as a sort of polaroid affair. Even better, you can crank it up to to something ridiculous like 6400 iso. From there you can calculate the correct exposure by using some simple maths and the reciprocity calcs for the film.

I did explain this in my first post.
 
Gandhi said:
3) So, if your digicam says 1 minute f2.8 iso 800, for example, and you have iso 100 film and want to use f16 for depth of field then that works out as 8 stops difference (f2.8 to f16 is 5 stops and iso 800 to 100 is 3 stops) so 10 minutes x 8 stops is 256 minutes. Or about 4 and a quarter hours.

QUOTE]

could you clarify this please, if the digicam says 1 minute f2.8 iso 800 and your using iso 100 film at f16, the difference is 8 stops then why is it 10 minutes x 8, should it not be 1 minute x 8

Excuse me if i've missed something
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Gandhi said:
You can use a digital camera as a sort of polaroid affair. Even better, you can crank it up to to something ridiculous like 6400 iso. From there you can calculate the correct exposure by using some simple maths and the reciprocity calcs for the film.

I did explain this in my first post.
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Indeed you did, as film users are outnumbered here your first sentence suggested to me (my stupid mistake) to use a digital camera for night shots (me thinking don't bother with a film camera), so I didn't read on.
 
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