nightmare wedding

big soft moose said:
would you think the caterer was having a laugh if they wanted payment before you'd eaten a meal, or the baker before you'd cut the cake, or the DJ before you'd heard a song ?

Do you think amazon are having a laugh when they take payment before your goods arrive ?
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If the prepayment before the day included print and album costs I'd think the photographer was taking the p***. But I would expect to pay for them after the selection viewing and before the order was placed with the printers. Perhaps the pro's could clarify exactly what is normally being paid for upfront as that might make it easier to understand.

I'm self-employed, and I always leave a completion stage on the invoicing schedule. It's never so much that I'm left out of pocket, but it is both a reminder that I need to finish the job to the clients satisfaction and a mark of trust in the relationship. But I am dealing b2b and the nature of contracts is perhaps better understood in that market.


But back to the OP, the professional is supposed to bring the professionalism to the assignment. Saying that you ***ked off doesn't sound professional.
 
I'd usually charge full fee before the day except print and album costs which would depend on what was being ordered later (although tbh I mostly just did a package deal with all hi res on cd included in the price because I can't be arsed to faff about with prints and upsell and such )
 
PSILVERMAN said:
So if its not covered in your contract then your contract is sadly lacking as you now know. Why you didn't say something to the other photographer quietly on the side is a mystery to me and others evidently. I think it's now a case of damage limitation if this is at all possible. I don't even know how you're gonna go about this to be honest. Others may have some ideas for you, please tell me you're insured.
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Why is the the insurer responsible for the crap attitude? (OK sounds like the 3rd was being awkward - but that's an uninsurable event - given the pro and his team did not deal...) No case for PL / EL/ PI.. pretty much sure no one insures for incompetence..

Now pretty sure this is either a wind up or a wannabee.. if i were to lead shoot (ended up once, when i sussed the lead didn't have the gear to do a reasonable job - and was sweating my balls off, and never again - no-one on here!!) I ended up having to do it all... which included setting up some shots and letting uncle bob's shoot over me.. (not saying what i did was right or not, but put on the spot by a mate... and his main body was a 20d.. nothing wrong with a 20d, but don't get too many pro's turn up with that as a main... ok he was aiming at the bottom end of the sheffield market..
 
Alastair said:
If the prepayment before the day included print and album costs I'd think the photographer was taking the p***. ...
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But like Pete said, most of us offer packages that mean you save money by buying up front. Your choice, but if you can save a couple of hundred quid by paying up front, would you do it? And is it really taking the p**** if you're making a saving?
 
Alastair said:
If the prepayment before the day included print and album costs I'd think the photographer was taking the p***. But I would expect to pay for them after the selection viewing and before the order was placed with the printers. Perhaps the pro's could clarify exactly what is normally being paid for upfront as that might make it easier to understand.

I'm self-employed, and I always leave a completion stage on the invoicing schedule. It's never so much that I'm left out of pocket, but it is both a reminder that I need to finish the job to the clients satisfaction and a mark of trust in the relationship. But I am dealing b2b and the nature of contracts is perhaps better understood in that market.


But back to the OP, the professional is supposed to bring the professionalism to the assignment. Saying that you ***ked off doesn't sound professional.
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Hi Alastair, it's done this way because the nature of wedding photography is vastly different to business to business agreements and transactions. There is a far greater level of risk for a wedding photographer, because he or she has set aside a big chunk of their time to prepare, photograph, process, deliver, and administer a wedding day - it can be a couple of weeks work for some full service photographers. If the client were to change their mind at short notice then there is probably no chance the photographer will find another client for that period and consequently may not be able to meet their living costs that month. Then there is the matter of guest photographers at the wedding and the many money-saving attempts that wedding couples are now becoming adept at - such as retaining the photographer but potentially deciding not to pay for their services after the fact because Uncle Bob can provide some vaguely acceptable snapshots.

There are quite a few photographers who are prepared to work on an à la carte basis whereby the client covers the photographers time and overhead for the photography and will then choose and purchase their products later on. I see nothing wrong in principle, but again it can be risky for the reasons I've just set out. It's also the most expensive option for the client - packages are what they are because they represent a good discount over individual list pricing, and therefore incentivise the client to pay in full beforehand thereby giving the photographer the security they need in order to confidently carry out the work. EDIT: Phil got there before me!

I think you have to be a working photographer to fully appreciate why things need to be done in this way, and why you cannot readily compare wedding photography with other services. If wedding photographers undertook their work based on a nominal deposit then they would spend the bulk of their professional lives chasing nonpaying clients.
 
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Phil V said:
Yes indeed we do, it's not universal, but as near as dammit.

From this I conclude:

You're not a wedding photographer

You've not hired a wedding photographer.
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Twenty three years ago, and the photographer along with the car hire hire and DJ all got paid after the wedding - their terms.
I would not dream of paying a tradesman for a job (in full) until satisfactory completion of the task, but as I have pointed out in other threads and posts, it does seem that there are more people trying pull scams nowadays, so I can see where you are coming from.
 
Lindsay D said:
I think you have to be a working photographer to fully appreciate why things need to be done in this way, and why you cannot readily compare wedding photography with other services. If wedding photographers undertook their work based on a nominal deposit then they would spend the bulk of their professional lives chasing nonpaying clients.
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Noone's talking about a nominal deposit. But it's no wonder that there are so many part-timers skimming the market when you present business terms that require full payment before the quality of the product is seen.

If anyone is spending the bulk of their time chasing payments, they're getting the wrong type of clients for the business.
 
Alastair said:
Noone's talking about a nominal deposit. But it's no wonder that there are so many part-timers skimming the market when you present business terms that require full payment before the quality of the product is seen.

If anyone is spending the bulk of their time chasing payments, they're getting the wrong type of clients for the business.
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I think that the problem is Alastair (and I was surprised that paying up front is the norm), it is impossible to tell who is a good or a bad client.
We have relations (now distanced thank God:wacky:), who are well educated, sound intelligent (until riled, when they turn into foul mouthed chavs), and are to all intents and purposes "normal" people.
They have however carried out numerous scams over the years, and seem to view it is a game, even a legitimate form of "money saving". They have no shame or sense of guilt, that their actions are leaving genuine people out of pocket, and cannot admit that they are - stealing:(
 
I feel like a broken record on this subject.

It's not a 'trade' comparison, or even a 'photography industry' one. It's about a particular market sector. Wedding photographers exist in the 'wedding' industry, where the norm is to be paid up front, plenty of us have separate arrangements for albums etc. I actually have a wedding booked for next May where the couple are making their final payment next week (their choice) their thinking being that if everything's paid for in plenty of time, they might choose to upgrade some items nearer the date.

Btw, they've saved at least £200 by booking and then settling so far in advance. And I'm not desperate for the cashflow, they just got lucky with my price rises and special offers.
 
Looks like this has gone in a completely different direction, has the OP even been on?
 
I think the op wishes he never started the thread. I think he was hoping for sympathy, what he got is a reality check. The truth can hurt, but hopefully he has read the thread and adjusted his business practices.
 
ford1 said:
nightmare yesterday had a wedding to do and was told that they had another tog doing the brides makeup ..so thought thats ok less work for me ..until she decided to try and take over the whole wedding ..getting in the way of the church pics and even waiting outside the venue then whisking them both off while i was inside doing the venue shots ..livid wasnt the word ..ive never had such a arrogant photographer just cut int shots like that ..asked her to move out of the shots and was told no i want these shots to ..i ended up saying to the bride and groom that im going until i get a text saying shes gone ..so ****ed off ..:bang:
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I'm no wedding photographer, but have shot a few and other events such as christenings [they are remarkably similar, with near as much being expected of you]

Anyway - I've had Uncle Bob and Aunt Mary types butt in front of me when I was capturing the crucial moments. I just worked around them, waited for a break in events, then politely suggested to them to not get in my way, as I was being paid for my images - they were not.

Before any event like this it might be worth asking the bride to get the word out to guests or anyone else who wants to shoot on the day, to just keep to their own space, and not get in the main photographer's way at any time.

That usually does the trick, nobody wants to upset the bride. Most times at least.

As for another shooter calling the B&G aside for shots without you ... well, the B&G should have simply said that they needed to wait for you. They hired you, they should have known it wasn't official shots without you there.

Either way, I'd have been pished off, but not walked away. I'd have had a serious word in private with the other shooter, andsaid they were in danger of ruining the wedding album ... or whatever.

Walking away just seems very wrong.
 
Betty said:
No more derailing. We need a response from the OP.
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Not likely, he's hardly covered himself in glory, and he has history of ranting and disappearing :shrug:

I think he expected some sympathy, and whilst he was getting close to that was happy to carry on the conversation. It's only when people pointed out he was partly responsible he stopped posting. It's a common enough pattern for a certain sector.
 
yeah he went wrong roundabout post 9 where he said that it was the other togs fault that his shots were over exposed and he'd told the client that she could just live with it.

IMO its the pro's responsibility to get good shots regardless of what else is going on - and I have a hard time believing that every over exposure was down to the other woman firing her flash (we all have uncle bob and his ubiquitous flash to contend with , but most of us manage to expose correctly despite it).

Come to that how hard would it have been to take the friend to one side and say 'look - you're spoiling your mates shots here' instead of going off in a huff
 
big soft moose said:
... and I have a hard time believing that every over exposure was down to the other woman firing her flash (we all have uncle bob and his ubiquitous flash to contend with , but most of us manage to expose correctly despite it).

...
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What?
I'm supposed to be exposing them properly? Why didn't you tell me this sooner :bang::bang:
 
its a cutting edge photographic technique

(edit - arse , wrong thread ;) )
 
Personally if I was the OP I wouldn't return as it can't be nice to see people slagging you off on line. It's far from ideal IMVHO and seems to have taken over the thread.

We all make mistakes and we all go off on one but does that mean we're crap or deserve a thread to turn into the likes of this?

There... I've said my bit and that's the end of my input except to say to the OP...

Hope you can move on from this wedding and crack on.
 
woof woof said:
...

There... I've said my bit and that's the end of my input except to say to the OP...

Hope you can move on from this wedding and crack on.
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I think we all pretty much do too. It was (hopefully) a lesson learned the hard way. I don't think anyone here thinks the OP is an idiot and no-one has resorted to personal insults.

It's clear the guy made mistakes and he'll learn from them, that's how we all grow surely :shrug:

But before you start to look down on the pro's here too much, how would you have reacted if it was your wife phoning and begging the photographer to return to your daughters wedding? I'm just asking because whilst it was just a few simple business mistakes, real genuine people were caught up in the middle of this. People like me and you, who've gone out to work to pay for a professional to come and take photo's, have been let down by this situation.
 
Alastair said:
...it's no wonder that there are so many part-timers skimming the market when you present business terms that require full payment before the quality of the product is seen...
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If the B & G have had a meeting with the photographer then booked the photog based on having seen samples of their work, it would be more than fair to say that they would know the quality they are getting.
 
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Phil.. and there's never been a thread about dodgy portfolios, and this very thread isn't illustrating quality problems that a portfolio couldn't cover.

I don't think we're not going to agree on much here..
 
thing is though , loads of businesses require payment before the quality of the goods have been seen - ever ordered anything from amazon ? (or any other website for that matter) , ever bought a new car , ever bought anything from a shop that comes in packaging etc

its standard practice to pay first , then chase a refund if the goods are substandard
 
If I buy a book from Amazon I can get a replacement if the binding is dodgy. It's not a once-in-a-lifetime non-repeatable event. It's not a comparable transaction.
 
fair enough - but if your wedding breakfast is undercooked , or the cake is crap, or the DJ turns up drunk, or the brides dress falls apart, or the venue turns out to be covered in scaffolding, or the airline cancels your honeymoon flight, or the hotel where your honeymoon is turns out to be a pit etc ... these all effect the once in a lifetime non repeatable event... and yet they are all routinely paid for before the fact
 
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