Nikon buying Samsung NX Technolgy?

HarveyM

HarveyM

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A couple of the Mirrorless Rumor sites are claimimg that Nikon may be buying into the NX sensor technology and that this would be announced next year. It does seem to make sense, most reviewers considered the NX1 sensor to be the best APS(C) sensor available but Samsung didn't have the reputation or lens line up to recoup development costs on these highly priced cameras. I don't believe that Nikon would continue with the NX mount, it just wouldn't make any sense. Nikon could then develop a mirrorless version of the long delayed D400, but that would take even more development time when a growing flow of system leakers has already left Nikon behind, My main concern would be that the Nikon culture of not really listening to users and a lack of innovation beyond mild iteration might continue and cripple the project at birth. Olympus, Panasonic, Sony and Fuji are really showing what can be done with exciting features that might be in Mk 1 versions at the moment, but demonstrate an innovation culture with feature rich cameras even for entry level ILCs (such as sensor shift, 4K video and photo modes, focus stacking in camera, firmware enhancements for existing users).
 
I don't know about the mirrorless move by Nikon, but to me that story screams that Nikon is buying Samsung's CMOS sensor tech to go at least into their APS-C range (mirrored and possibly mirrorless). That is one big fat middle finger sticking up to Sony's face. Or maybe Sony decided to cut sensor supply by themselves?

If nikon does take on the NX cameras, they will almost certainly keep the NX mount. Nikon doesn't have APS-C mirrorless body, so they don't have a mount for one. Why would they spend money on something new. Of course they would make a NX to F adapter to use all the current glass.
 
It would be a shame to see the tech in the NX1 die out as it would appear to have been one of the best implementations of mirrorless yet...its just a shame hardly anyone ever got to try it.

Nikon buying it up would make a lot of sense and give them an immediate leg up in what will undoubtably be the future of digital photography.
 
There have been rumours that Nikon are going to release a bigger sensor / more serious mirrorless system.
 
The issue of lens mounts is interesting, Nikon and Canon have lens mounts that are respectively their best assets but also future liabilities. Both have big lens ranges and photographers wedded to their respective systems. Any mirrorless design which retains the existing mounts loses the ability to reduce the size of the camera such as Sony has acheived. They are between the devil and the deep blue sea, do nothing, accept larger bodies and use existing glass, or risk a new mount that requires the design, build and sales of a new lens range. For Full Frame Sensors, the lenses are always going to be big so a larger body is much less of an issue. Rather more important I suggest on APS(C) mirrorless cameras where comparisons could be made with the excellent and compact Fuji system. Nikon and Canon do, of course, have mirrorless mounts already. Nikon hae the CX mount which doesn't seem to receive much love from the maker or buying public and looks like a dead end. Canon has more scope with the EOS-M mount one might think, but again, it doesn't get much love from the maker and lacks native EOS-M lenses.

I think that both Nikon and Canon misjudged the speed of development of mirrorless cameras. They introduced systems that were out of date at launch and haven't been properly developed since. Other systems are flourishing in terms of bodies and lens availability, despite some financial worries for some companies.
 
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I think Canon and Nikon were very, very careful not to cannibalise their own DSLR offerings with their mirrorless efforts, something they both also have plenty of practice with when it comes to features within their own DSLR ranges. They are token efforts at best but they've no doubt both realised that they will have to join the party sooner rather than later.

I guess they didn't bank on people completely moving away from their systems to the likes of Sony and Fuji, the numbers are barely a dent at the moment but it's still a dent and will only get bigger with the rapid advancement of mirrorless tech.

It's going to get very interesting for sure, whilst there isn't perfect DSLR replacement in mirrorless yet it's getting close and the innovations afforded by a fully electronic system have been rapid and compelling. The mirrorless manufacturers have also driven a massive change in the industry with regards to ongoing support, Fuji, Micro 43 and gradually Sony are building loyalty with lengthy and significant free upgrades, a world away from hat CaNikon can and will offer in the DSLR world.
 
ukaskew said:
I think Canon and Nikon were very, very careful not to cannibalise their own DSLR offerings with their mirrorless efforts, something they both also have plenty of practice with when it comes to features within their own DSLR ranges.
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Canon ditching FD mount was just the very thing! It makes me very concerned they might do similar again.

I don't really consider all the Fuji's a real competition to high end full frame dSLRs. Full frame is full frame and that is the end of story. Sony A7RII is a very different story. It is the only strong rival, aside from really crap body shape and ergonomics IMHO. I haven't been watching video and pro-consumer (APS-C) market so much so I have little idea what is happening there.
 
I'm surprised that Samsung are considering selling. It's one thing to not make cameras but surely they could make a lot of money providing sensors to other manufacturers?
 
I think Nikon and Canon have been too busy watching each other and have failed to see others leaping ahead in the mirrorless markets.

If this is true they are obviously concerned, but may have missed out on a fair few who have already switched.
Much like myself (albeit from Canon) who are firmly entrenched in a new system and reluctant to change again.
 
tijuana taxi said:
I think Nikon and Canon have been too busy watching each other and have failed to see others leaping ahead in the mirrorless markets.

If this is true they are obviously concerned, but may have missed out on a fair few who have already switched.
Much like myself (albeit from Canon) who are firmly entrenched in a new system and reluctant to change again.
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Im not sure about that, I think theyve been waiting for the technology to improve (in terms of AF), no point in releasing even more half baked cameras.
 
ukaskew said:
I guess they didn't bank on people completely moving away from their systems to the likes of Sony and Fuji, the numbers are barely a dent at the moment but it's still a dent and will only get bigger with the rapid advancement of mirrorless tech.
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I think the other thing that will build up momentum for Sony and Fuji here is the subsequent availability of second hand gear. When I moved from Pentax to Fuji mirrorless a large part of the final decision was the fact that I could replace my favoured focal lengths with good condition second hand copies of the Fuji equivalents. Without this market I wouldn't have swapped.
 
LongLensPhotography said:
I don't really consider all the Fuji's a real competition to high end full frame dSLRs. Full frame is full frame and that is the end of story. Sony A7RII is a very different story. It is the only strong rival, aside from really crap body shape and ergonomics IMHO. I haven't been watching video and pro-consumer (APS-C) market so much so I have little idea what is happening there.
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Anecdotally it would seem Fuji has made a bigger dent in the professional market than Sony so far, but I'm sure that may change. There are certainly a reasonable number of professional wedding photographers globally (some very highly regarded) who have made the move wholesale after initially adding them as back-ups etc, and more than a few very successful travel/documentary photographers.
 
ukaskew said:
Anecdotally it would seem Fuji has made a bigger dent in the professional market than Sony so far, but I'm sure that may change. There are certainly a reasonable number of professional wedding photographers globally (some very highly regarded) who have made the move wholesale after initially adding them as back-ups etc, and more than a few very successful travel/documentary photographers.
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I have to agree with this, Sony will eventually catch up with Fuji in the pro market especially when some of the more essential lenses get brought out (like a 24-70 2.8 and 70-200 f2.8) although you wonder what the ergonomics of an A7Rii with a 24-70 f2.8 is going to be like without having to add a battery grip... might as well just buy a DSLR....

There is a market for mirror less, professional and amateur and actually it could be that Nikon have eyes on the Samsung APS-C tech to replace their lower/mid range APS-C stuff, as anecdotally it would seem that a lot of first timers and amateurs are opting for mirror less rather than the more traditional low end Nikon or Canon DSLR as a first step into photography.
 
Sony may as well release a 'DSLR' sized mirrorless body with the ergonomics to handle bigger lenses and be done with it. The inherent advantages of mirrorless now go way beyond the size aspect that was initially used to market the concept in the first place, they've got to be nearing the point of at least considering a rugged dual card body given how they are positioning themselves in the market.

Ironically Samsung were on the right track with that in my opinion, the NX1 was essentially a mirrorless camera in a DSLR body. As I understand it mirrorless is more profitable, so it's a good shout for Nikon to go down that route with their APS-C offerings (where the inherent AF accuracy advantage of mirrorless is likely to become more prominent as MPs continue to increase, particularly for amateur users who understandably have no interest in micro-adjust shenanigans)
 
ukaskew said:
Sony may as well release a 'DSLR' sized mirrorless body with the ergonomics to handle bigger lenses and be done with it. The inherent advantages of mirrorless now go way beyond the size aspect that was initially used to market the concept in the first place, they've got to be nearing the point of at least considering a rugged dual card body given how they are positioning themselves in the market.

Ironically Samsung were on the right track with that in my opinion, the NX1 was essentially a mirrorless camera in a DSLR body. As I understand it mirrorless is more profitable, so it's a good shout for Nikon to go down that route with their APS-C offerings (where the inherent AF accuracy advantage of mirrorless is likely to become more prominent as MPs continue to increase, particularly for amateur users who understandably have no interest in micro-adjust shenanigans)
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This is where I think Olympus have the right idea with the EM1 but sadly don't have the FF sensor tech... its also something I like about a few of the grip options offered by Olympus and Fuji, Olympus let you choose which bits of the grip you want to use, so you can just bulk up the handgrip or add the battery section too, Fuji offer a beefier handgrip option for the XT1 and then obviously the battery grip, handling (especially for full frame) is going to be more and more important as we get faster glass.
 
ukaskew said:
Sony may as well release a 'DSLR' sized mirrorless body with the ergonomics to handle bigger lenses and be done with it. As I understand it mirrorless is more profitable, so it's a good shout for Nikon to go down that route with their APS-C offerings (where the inherent AF accuracy advantage of mirrorless is likely to become more prominent as MPs continue to increase, particularly for amateur users who understandably have no interest in micro-adjust shenanigans)
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This is imo what they should do, the catch, on sensor AF hasnt been good enough to compete with DSLR and it still isnt.

Strange that, Ive never found a mirrorless as fast or as accurate as my D750 for anything that requires speed or fast AF in low light. Which amateurs need all those MP? Even serious shooters arent all jumping ship and buying into the 5dsr. Micro adjust = 5 mins IF the lens requires it, not all do.
 
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twist said:
This is imo what they should do, the catch, on sensor AF hasnt been good enough to compete with DSLR and it still isnt.

Strange that, Ive never found a mirrorless as fast or as accurate as my D750 for anything that requires speed or fast AF in low light. Which amateurs need all those MP? Even serious shooters arent all jumping ship and buying into the 5dsr. Micro adjust = 5 mins IF the lens requires it, not all do.
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Fast moving objects and very low light are definitely the two areas where mirrorless has some way to go, and the likes of the D750 have widened the gap for sure (although the a7RII, E-M1 and ironically NX1 have taken mirrorless to another level), but for most other things mirrorless is inherently absolutely nailed on straight out of the box with very, very little risk of front/back focus issues etc compared to DSLRs. I think it was DPReview that talked about the siginifcantly higher risk of issues with APS-C DSLR bodies with no microadjust and anything approaching fast glass now we're in 24/36mp territory.

The a7RII is particuarly interesting, I can't find it now but there were some tests with adapted Canon EF lenses that had a much, much higher hit rate on the a7RII than on any native Canon body.
 
ukaskew said:
Fast moving objects and very low light are definitely the two areas where mirrorless has some way to go, and the likes of the D750 have widened the gap for sure (although the a7RII, E-M1 and ironically NX1 have taken mirrorless to another level), but for most other things mirrorless is inherently absolutely nailed on straight out of the box with very, very little risk of front/back focus issues etc compared to DSLRs. I think it was DPReview that talked about the siginifcantly higher risk of issues with APS-C DSLR bodies with no microadjust and anything approaching fast glass now we're in 24/36mp territory.

The a7RII is particuarly interesting, I can't find it now but there were some tests with adapted Canon EF lenses that had a much, much higher hit rate on the a7RII than on any native Canon body.
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Agreed, mirrorless cameras are improving all the time which is a good thing. Obviously theres an incentive for manufacturers, less moving parts, cheaper to manufacturer, bigger profits. I think the FF / BF issue is a little overblown as it takes only a few minutes to correct if required, failing to focus however is a bigger issue. I have a lower hit rate with mirrorless, sure if I have the time to make sure it gets focus itll probably/might be in focus but because it takes longer to obtain or hunts my hit rate suffers. I take what DPR have published with a very large pinch of salt because Ive seen real world tests that prove otherwise. I only shoot with fast glass wide open and have done so on both 24 and 36mp FF sensors without issue.

I sold all my DSLR gear with a view to moving to the A7rii because of hype but as more reviews and comparisons were being posted I dodged that bullet. I can see the attraction for certain types of photography though. GAS is a terrible thing.
 
LongLensPhotography said:
Canon ditching FD mount was just the very thing! It makes me very concerned they might do similar again.
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Well, let's see if we can help you be less concerned...

What was Canon's market position with the FD mount in 1985? What is its market position with the EF mount now?

What were the technical challenges in 1985 which could *only* be achieved by ditching the FD mount? What are the technical challenges now which could *only* be achieved by ditching the EF mount?

Feel better now?
 
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