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Doing more research into the Nikon D800 and live view it is very poor and flawed in Live view Pixelization is very bad.
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Nikon D800 & Canon 70D LiveView sample test
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Doing more research into the Nikon D800 and live view it is very poor and flawed in Live view Pixelization is very bad.
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Nothing.. LOL.
Oh FFS.. zoomed fully in, you can EASILY see when it's in focus. Seriously.. if you can't.. what you actually need is an eye test.
I've posted up irrefutable evidence in this thread, yet you continue to whine about this.
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GardenersHelper
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Would it be too much off-topic to pursue here what I seem to be reading between the lines here, that (a) given your use of "primitive", you consider phase detection focusing to be overwhelmingly, and I suspect always, better than contrast detection focusing and (b) that using AF with live view is ... not sure what, pointless/useless/asanineor some such, especially as (not reading between the lines) "AF with live view is utter sh*t on" [the 70D]?
Or put another way, more colloquially, that no one with any sense would use AF with live view, especially on a camera that makes available normal phase detection, and that includes the 70D? I wonder if I understand that correctly.
Also, regarding your "you've disabled the phase detection system", as I understand it live view on the 70D uses on-chip phase detection. So it's using a different configuration of phase detection rather than not using it (which is an interesting context for your "using a primitive contrast based AF system").
Fair enough if this is not the place to discuss this, but if it is (as someone who has more than a passing interest in the 70D, specifically with a view to using live view on its flippy screen) I'd be very interested to explore your knowledge of this area in another context at some point.
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Academic. He was focusing manually after all... he's just not very good at it.
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i print poster size images and have got great resluts with a 5d mk 2...my main interest is landscape but i allso want fast super fast auto focus ...the test wasnt a real life situation ..it was done in a studio ...the nikon d800 has had problems from day one ....in the comparison it is slightly flawed in the fact the canon 70d used 50mm 1.4 and the d800 used a 85mm 1.8....so as you have said are test is flawed..surely the test you have just pointed out is flawed......d800 poor live view not 1.1 pixel and focus problems ...and as for backing each other up that is not the case...the facts are we took a load of shots on a stady tripod all at f8 and the nikon shots were all soft ...forget the focal lengh.even if we had a 35mm for the 70d i still think the nikon would be soft......the a7r is as sharp as the d800e and has far better options for me like focus peaking to name a few
OP
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Funny you say that as not only did I take the shot 2 other people also took the same shot including the salesman who has many years experience and all the shots was pretty much the same and all was manual focused so your comments again are more focused on myself not the cameras in test.
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Yet again you fail to grasp this image magnification issue!
Of course the 70D is using a 50 and the D800 a 80!!! That's how you get the magnification the same!!! (50mm on a crop esnsor camera is near as damn it 80mm equivalent). YOUR test with a 50 on each is the incorrect method.
Yes... it was in a studio... so conditions do not vary. How is it not real life? It's real light, through a real lens, focusing on real objects! Seriously... you're making yourself look a bit stupid.
You don't NEED 1:1 pixels to see if your lens is focused!! LOL.
Say what you like. I've posted up DP Review's images.. are you suggesting yours are accurate despite using different magnification factors, and DP review's are not? If so.... you're losing what credibility you have left.
You will not be convinced otherwise clearly..... so just go buy the 70D... it's great.... it can defy the laws of physics.
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GardenersHelper
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Oh well, fair enough, you don't want to talk about your strong assertions regarding the effectiveness of live view AF on the 70D or the technology used to implement it, or more generally the role of AF with live view.
For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not agreeing with the OP about the substance of your debate with him - I would be gobsmacked if a crop camera outperformed a full frame camera in terms of image quality - and if it had happened I'm sure we would all have heard about it by now. It is your views on the usefulness or otherwise of AF, AF with live view, and evidence about the performance of live view autofocusing on the 70D that I am interested in as they seem so much at variance with what I have read elsewhere about the 70D, and my own experience with AF.
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Not in this thread, no... it's messy enough trying to get someone to understand the incredibly basic principle of image magnification and how it's important to maintain parity in it when making comparative tests.
I've already demonstrated, both in this thread, and others, that it can not.
Regardless of what the 70D is like... assuming AF was used, which at the time I thought it was, the D800's AF in live view sucks! It was a comparative test between the 2 cameras, so it was relevant.
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Pookeyhead- do you think I would make your ideal studentand you always say Cameras don't take photographs... People do.
Which is absolutely true.... regardless of which one you chose.
It's really, really simple. The Sony and D800 are about as good as you're going to get without stepping up to medium format... the 70D isn't in the same league. Whichever you chose it will not make your photography any better, no, but then again that's not what this thread is about.. not in the slightest.... a thread YOU created incidentally, not I... and now you choose to play the "people take photos" card?
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you say the 70D isn't in the same league...to an extent i agree..but in what respect ,,in the samples people can clearly see the cheap 70d is holding its own ..ive got a need for a big mega pixel count but for jo blogs i dont think it really matters ...
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In the samples, the right ones, i can clearly see it getting dumped on by the big boys.
simon ess
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If I really, really needed a big mega pixel count I'd get one of these.
http://www.sinar.ch/en/category/products/cameras/
http://www.sinar.ch/en/category/products/cameras/
OP
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If you use a 50mm on both camera's in live view then Yes the crop sensor of the Canon 70D gets better results than the Nikon D800 exactly.
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Pointless comparison.
It's not that simple, because of the field of view change - magnification is different, which is what Pooks has been trying to point out.
A valid comparison would be a 50mm lens on a D800 and a 31mm lens on a 70D. Taken from the same position, that would yield two images framed the same. And in that case, the D800 would have the better image quality - every time.
And not because the D800 has more pixels, but because the image is more that twice the physical area.
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Ultimately the idea of the test was for the OP to decide on a suitable camera for his needs which I believe was mainly based on manual focusing in Live View... owning the D800 I'd agree it's a poor implementation for manual focusing, not so for AF though, but based on the OPs own tests and and conclusions in his first post seems to me he needs to go out and buy the 70d, every other post apart from his first (including mine) are really a waste of text as he should already have decided by now ;-)
simon ess
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Exactly.
Can someone tell me what live View is actually for?
Never used it in my life.
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Ok.. I give up... LOL
I tried.... I really tried to help him. Let him buy the 70D thinking it will give him sharper images if it makes him happy.
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OP
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I am glad you now understand it took a while for the penny to drop.
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Very underrated IMHO, I find it invaluable for tripod mounted focusing for landscapes using selective focus point, saves the "recompose" focus method via the viewfinder. Live View focusing is more accurate than the phase detection of the viewfinder too.. a few other reasons it's useful although some more useful than others, and the manual focus one not really too relevant to the D800 as we've mentioned above ;-)
http://www.digitalcameraworld.com/2012/06/19/10-ways-live-view-trumps-your-viewfinder/
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mate... the 70D will never, ever give you sharper images.
The only penny that's dropped is the realisation that for whatever reason, you're just not understanding what people far more experienced and knowledgeable are trying to tell you. If you prefer the 70D for any other reason, I'd happily recommend it... however, you genuinely think it will give you sharper images than a D800 or a Sony 7R. It actually makes me sad that you are going to spend a considerable amount of money on a camera that can never, ever achieve this, simply because you're too stubborn to listen or realise.
Good luck with whatever you do. Over and out.
Pookeyhead has left the thread.
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OP
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Pookeyhead I am glad and appreciate your replies and others but in Liveview mode and MF the canon to me wins and even if I did 30mm against the 50mm on the Nikon I still think the Canon picture would be better as the Nikon can not get the focus right in Live View manual mode.
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Simon if you look at my flickr all of my shots are done via live view and I don't see any other way to get the shot unless you can show me different
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This makes no sense at all.
simon ess
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With the greatest respect Andrew, and with the acceptance that everyone should do what works for them, how do you think pictures were taken before live view was invented?
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Let me try and explain ...What's already been said by pookyhead he thinks it is an unfair comparison using a crop camera with a 50mm lens and a Nikon FF camera with a FF lens and should have used a 31mm focal range on the canon so both cameras focal range was the same , yes I agree with that but I still think the canon would have given better results as the Nikon is s***e in Live view MF or the Nikon D800 I tested was or was faulty which could not be ruled out.
simon ess
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I suppose it depends on how dark you mean, but my humble D7000 had no problem focusing for this shot.
Bank Holiday Monday by simon ess, on Flickr
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This is my final comment.
I've manually focused the D800 using live view for astro-photography... NO conditions you will encounter are darker than that. Enter live view in still mode... increase ISO to max... hit the OK button.... find an edge or object to focus on.... manually focus. Reset ISO.... come out of live view... shoot. It's dark.. it's noisy, but it will be on ANY camera... but it works. My images are pin sharp. Sharper then they'd ever be on a 70D.
There's nothing wrong with the live view on the D800. Whether the 70D's live view is better or not is not the point (it might well be). It's the final image that matters. Even if it's more problematic on the D800 in low light (which I doubt), it is perfectly possible to use it in low light. I do it all the time.
with almost NO light.
That's in the middle of Galloway forest... a true dark sky site... not a street light within 20 miles in any direction and the only light a quarter moon. I reckon that qualifies as dark.
I manually focused using Live View.Goodnight.
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OP
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Pookeyhead your final comment is appreciated and your explanation and love the picture and the way you explained how it was taken and would you have the same outcome if you took the picture in Live View mode or do you come out of that mode to stop mirror shake or alike..
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I agree the test is flawed, but I don't totally agree with the rest.
The cropping of the D800 would work as a pretty fair comparison if the 70D was a 13MP camera.... But it's not, so the 70D has a ~9MP advantage in the cropped view. And the images would print at different sizes.
Using different FL's to give the same FOV gives the D800 a 14MP advantage at a pixel level... But the files would print at different sizes again (That is kind of the point of the D800 IMO).
You could use different FL's *and* downsample the larger file to the same file size in order to see how they would compare at the same display size... (as was done in the two example tests). This would be "fairer" in that downsampling effectively takes multiple pixels and uses them as one. This is how the D800 gets it's DR/Color Depth/Etc. ratings... It comes at something of a cost to detail but it also increases the contrast of the image (which has a bigger influence on perceived sharpness than actual detail does). But it's still not quite the same as a print of equal size where some of the differences you may be able to discern on screen will likely be negated. But, these days print isn't always the final outcome.
(And, IMO, downsampling also negates the real point of recording huge files w/ the D800).
And f/8 isn't ideal for either camera in that it is limiting the maximum detail resolution the sensor is otherwise capable of (actually more for the 70D). F/4 should have been plenty sharp for a 50mm prime and would/should have been better for both (I wouldn't expect the MTF to fall off at f/4 for 50mm primes, but I don't know the lenses specifically or how they compare to each other; and I'm too lazy to go look it up).
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I've used tape to secure the mirror in the up position for Nikon Live-view use... Otherwise I come out of it and go to M-UP. Stupid Nikons...
I'm not taking any responsibility for the tape thing, just sharing a trick.
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MTF Values below and the Nikon out performs on paper the canon in every department.
Those numbers are not comparable, not taken on the same camera. It warns about this on PhotoZone.de and just to prove it they also have the same lens tested on three different Canons all with different results. The numbers above are from a Canon 50D, here http://www.photozone.de/canon-eos/565-canon50f14apsc?start=1
The Nikon lens quoted is tested on a D3x, here http://www.photozone.de/nikon_ff/441-nikkor_afs_50_14_ff?start=1 The same lens is also tested on a Nikon D200 with yet another set of numbers.
This is just one of the major flaws with all lens tests (all except the ones that I do of course, but that's another story
) though it's an easy trap for the unwary to fall into.BTW, it is forum etiquette to credit sources and provide links