Nikon Z* mirrorless

[AZ6]

OUCH !!
That would bug me so much I'd have to get it repaired.

Crikey that's a scar and a half. My OCD would want that repairing

If I had damaged my camera like you have I'd have to get it repaired asap.

Don't. I'm trying not to think about it. So much so, I've gone and bought a Canon camera on Ebay.

 

[wilt]

You should have went to A+E, clearly you got a knock to the head too.

 

[Stephen L]

You should have went to A+E, clearly you got a knock to the head too.

Very good. A&E. Canon AE1! I get it!

 

[AZ6]

You should have went to A+E, clearly you got a knock to the head too.

To compound things, I'm currently ill with a nasty cold (it's NOT Coronavirus!!!).

I had a Canon AE-1. It was the camera that convinced me to buy a Nikon...

 

[Sootchucker]

Daisy at full pelt yesterday on the garden

 

[Sootchucker]

Another one of Daisy yesterday - tight turn !

 

[AZ6]

Is that with focus tracking and that? I imagine a black dog would pose a particular challenge to any AF system.

 

[Sootchucker]

Yeah our black dogs have posed an issue for every camera system I've ever used. No issues when the dogs are still, but very difficult when they are at high speed and you need to use C-AF. Daisy is a little better as she has some white accents for the AF system to lock onto. Our other dog, Charlie though is pure black - no accents at all and he is a real problem to track.

Funnily enough, I didn't use the tracking function on this as she were just moving too quickly for me to lock onto her (she's really quick), so instead I used Dynamic area AF. I got about 50% absolutely tack sharp, about 15% just slightly OOF, and about 35% totally OOF. So whilst Nikon clearly have a bit of work to do yet to bring them up to DSLR standards, it is still possible.

Here's Charlie (taken a while ago on my Olympus body - so apologies for that) and as you can see, his coat is pretty featureless.

 

[Brazo]

So whilst Nikon clearly have a bit of work to do yet to bring them up to DSLR standards, it is still possible.

Or current mirrorless standards, It is possible as Sony have shown!

 

[AZ6]

It's interesting though that with each major firmware update, Nikon seems to significantly improve the AF performance. Showing that surely it's more about software than hardware. Also showing that Sony, whilst producing undoubtedly great products, are only really ahead in this respect, due to software, rather than other aspects of design. But more importantly, that Nikon, not famed for being ahead of the curve when it comes to new technology, have really made a step forward in producing these new ML cameras, and are committed to producing proper quality products, rather than just going with the latest trends. They've taken a lot of stick, and some of it fair, but these new Z cameras are stunning photographic tools imo, and worthy of praise.

 

[Sootchucker]

Yes, whilst it pains me to amidt (I've tried Sony and it just never really bonded with me) they really are the standard to which all others currently have to emulate when it comes to tracking AF.

 

[Brazo]

Yes, whilst it pains me to amidt (I've tried Sony and it just never really bonded with me) they really are the standard to which all others currently have to emulate when it comes to tracking AF.

I am Nikon myself, but it is disappointing to see how far behind they are and the gaps increasing.

 

[Brazo]

It's interesting though that with each major firmware update, Nikon seems to significantly improve the AF performance. Showing that surely it's more about software than hardware. Also showing that Sony, whilst producing undoubtedly great products, are only really ahead in this respect, due to software, rather than other aspects of design. But more importantly, that Nikon, not famed for being ahead of the curve when it comes to new technology, have really made a step forward in producing these new ML cameras, and are committed to producing proper quality products, rather than just going with the latest trends. They've taken a lot of stick, and some of it fair, but these new Z cameras are stunning photographic tools imo, and worthy of praise.

I think hardware is just as important. Have you seen how small the eye af box is on a Sony and how (in comparison) comically large it is on a Nikon. I’m sorry if I’m coming across as a sony fan, I’m actually fully Nikon but am just facing facts.

 

[Sootchucker]

It's interesting though that with each major firmware update, Nikon seems to significantly improve the AF performance. Showing that surely it's more about software than hardware. Also showing that Sony, whilst producing undoubtedly great products, are only really ahead in this respect, due to software, rather than other aspects of design. But more importantly, that Nikon, not famed for being ahead of the curve when it comes to new technology, have really made a step forward in producing these new ML cameras, and are committed to producing proper quality products, rather than just going with the latest trends. They've taken a lot of stick, and some of it fair, but these new Z cameras are stunning photographic tools imo, and worthy of praise.

I have to admit, that having owned over the last 15-20 years or so, over 20 Nikon DSLR bodies, the two Z's that I have (Z6 & Z7), are the most fun i've ever had with a Nikon camera, and form factor wise are really close to my Olympus systems which I also love. There's just something about the Z bodies that make you want to pick them up and shoot with them. Sure the single card slot might have been a mistake (although I still believe XQD really does go a long way to cancelling that argument out), the software was undoubtedly unfinished when the cameras were launched (a lot has changed in Firmware updates), but despite all that they produce some of the best , most detailed, sharpest best exposed images I've ever had from any camera.

If they can bring the AF-C and tracking upto (and surpass) Sony standards, they will be pretty unbeatable.

 

[AZ6]

I think hardware is just as important. Have you seen how small the eye af box is on a Sony and how (in comparison) comically large it is on a Nikon. I’m sorry if I’m coming across as a sony fan, I’m actually fully Nikon but am just facing facts.

Surely that's software, not hardware. Hardware is the actual physical camera body, the lenses, the quality of those lenses, the sensor, stuff like that. So Sony's eye AF is better; the Nikons have much better ergonomics, for me. Side by side in a shop, the Nikons felt tougher too.

I looked at (several) Sony ML cameras, as a small, lightweight 'travel' alternative, but each time, was put off by what I felt were poor ergonomics and control layouts. I've no doubt they are brilliant picture taking machines. I bet if you put a load of good pictures up taken on different cameras, nobody would be able to tell them apart (or even care) in terms of IQ. I don't think you can really put a Rizla paper between brands in this respect. So it comes down to other features, such as ergonomics, system compatibility etc. AF performance isn't a big consideration for me, as I don't do sports or 'action' much. But at a recent music gig, in typically challenging light, the eye AF was working better than I'd noticed it before, proving the FW update was of positive benefit. Not being someone familiar with other systems, to me, this was just amazing, and I don't care if another brand's AF is 'better'; it's good enough for me!

Plus there was a lot of stick given over the lack of lenses on launch. There are now 11 FX lenses, within 18 months, which is more than Sony had in that period. Each one seems to get rave reviews, and my own experience of just two of them, proves they are a step up in terms of IQ. So it's all very positive.

 

[AZ6]

I have to admit, that having owned over the last 15-20 years or so, over 20 Nikon DSLR bodies, the two Z's that I have (Z6 & Z7), are the most fun i've ever had with a Nikon camera, and form factor wise are really close to my Olympus systems which I also love. There's just something about the Z bodies that make you want to pick them up and shoot with them. Sure the single card slot might have been a mistake (although I still believe XQD really does go a long way to cancelling that argument out), the software was undoubtedly unfinished when the cameras were launched (a lot has changed in Firmware updates), but despite all that they produce some of the best , most detailed, sharpest best exposed images I've ever had from any camera.

If they can bring the AF-C and tracking upto (and surpass) Sony standards, they will be pretty unbeatable.

Nice. I am discovering I can take better pictures than I could previously, due to features like eye AF, and the improved low light capability. The Z6 is allowing me to concentrate more on my creativity, than having to work out how to get round a camera's inadequacies. Shooting on film (with one ISO, and only colour or B+W) really pushed me in terms of overcoming technical difficulties, but the Z6 is 'liberating'. Certainly, with my eyesight only getting progressively worse, stuff like eye AF is a godsend. Being able to take the pictures I want to, rather than just ones I could, is a revelation. I never thought a piece of equipment could bring such joy.

 

[Sootchucker]

Actually, that's a very good point AZ6. Lens availability in Native mount is also still one of Nikon's (and Canon's) drawbacks compared to Sony. They (Sony) already have many years on Nikon and Canon in fleshing out their mirrorless lens lineup and from what I have seen, its a pretty comprehensive lineup, and I've not heard about many of them being dogs. Maybe some are a bit "meh" but a lot I've heard are exceptional (especially the Zeiss units). Obviously as a stop gap we have the FTZ adaptor and access to the huge back catalogue of F mount lenses, but it's always nicer to use native glass than an adapter.

Looking at Nikon's lineup, like you for a company that historically reacts slower than a moving glacier. I've been very impressed with the pace at which the Nikon Z lens line up is coming along - much faster than I anticipated, and if you believe them, by the end of 2021 we will have 23 native Z lenses (and as you also said, everyone launched so far has been optically stunning). There are some big holes in the line upo at present (longer telephone Primes and Zooms) but I'm sure they will get there.

 

[Brazo]

Surely that's software, not hardware. Hardware is the actual physical camera body, the lenses, the quality of those lenses, the sensor, stuff like that. So Sony's eye AF is better; the Nikons have much better ergonomics, for me. Side by side in a shop, the Nikons felt tougher too.

I looked at (several) Sony ML cameras, as a small, lightweight 'travel' alternative, but each time, was put off by what I felt were poor ergonomics and control layouts. I've no doubt they are brilliant picture taking machines. I bet if you put a load of good pictures up taken on different cameras, nobody would be able to tell them apart (or even care) in terms of IQ. I don't think you can really put a Rizla paper between brands in this respect. So it comes down to other features, such as ergonomics, system compatibility etc. AF performance isn't a big consideration for me, as I don't do sports or 'action' much. But at a recent music gig, in typically challenging light, the eye AF was working better than I'd noticed it before, proving the FW update was of positive benefit. Not being someone familiar with other systems, to me, this was just amazing, and I don't care if another brand's AF is 'better'; it's good enough for me!

Plus there was a lot of stick given over the lack of lenses on launch. There are now 11 FX lenses, within 18 months, which is more than Sony had in that period. Each one seems to get rave reviews, and my own experience of just two of them, proves they are a step up in terms of IQ. So it's all very positive.

The af module is hardware

 

[Stephen L]

Whilst I accept the arguments that AF-C and tracking on the Z series might not be quite up to the standards of some other manufacturers, in my case this does not affect me as I rarely shoot anything which moves faster than me (which is very slow!) As far as the image quality is concerned, the results from my Z6 easily surpass anything I have used previously. It's sad that a single topic seems to be the cause of so much ill-will in other forums. In my experience all modern cameras are excellent at most things, and all manufacturers have their own achilles heel.

 

[AZ6]

Actually, that's a very good point AZ6. Lens availability in Native mount is also still one of Nikon's (and Canon's) drawbacks compared to Sony. They (Sony) already have many years on Nikon and Canon in fleshing out their mirrorless lens lineup and from what I have seen, its a pretty comprehensive lineup, and I've not heard about many of them being dogs. Maybe some are a bit "meh" but a lot I've heard are exceptional (especially the Zeiss units).

Looking at Nikon's lineup, like you for a company that historically reacts slower than a moving glacier. I've been very impressed with the pace at which the Nikon Z lens line up is coming along - much faster than I anticipated, and if you believe them, by the end of 2021 we will have 23 native Z lenses (and as you also said, everyone launched so far has been optically stunning). There are some big holes in the line upo at present (longer telephone Primes and Zooms) but I'm sure they will get there.

Nikon went with a broad new, totally redesigned lens mount, with a relatively huge diameter. This was supposedly to allow for new, better lens designs. Significantly larger than Sony's E-mount. When I bought my new 50mm f1.8S, I thought 'why is this thing so massive? Why can't it be tiny and light like my little AF-D version? I mean, look, it's over twice the size ffs!



And then I saw the results, And I compared them.

Ah. That's why. Ok then. I accept that for such a significant improvement in quality (and the AF-D version is pretty bloody good anyway), one must compromise, and here, it's size and weight. So fair enough. But does that large lens mount diameter mean Nikon will be able to produce lenses of better quality than those available for Sony (the Zeiss things are stupidly expensive, yet apparently not significantly better than the Z lenses so far)? If so, that would significantly shift the goalposts once more. If Nikon do pull that off (and early indications are that their new lenses are stunning), then that will be of far greater benefit than 'gimmicks'. IMO.

The af module is hardware

The interpretation of data is in the software. That's why it's better.

Whilst I accept the arguments that AF-C and tracking on the Z series might not be quite up to the standards of some other manufacturers, in my case this does not affect me as I rarely shoot anything which moves faster than me (which is very slow!) As far as the image quality is concerned, the results from my Z6 easily surpass anything I have used previously. It's sad that a single topic seems to be the cause of so much ill-will in other forums. In my experience all modern cameras are excellent at most things, and all manufacturers have their own achilles heel.

Innit doh.

 

[Brazo]

Whilst I accept the arguments that AF-C and tracking on the Z series might not be quite up to the standards of some other manufacturers, in my case this does not affect me as I rarely shoot anything which moves faster than me (which is very slow!) As far as the image quality is concerned, the results from my Z6 easily surpass anything I have used previously. It's sad that a single topic seems to be the cause of so much ill-will in other forums. In my experience all modern cameras are excellent at most things, and all manufacturers have their own achilles heel.

It’s not ill will, it’s simply joining in a conversation following a user posting up with focusing issues.

As for image quality that’s far more subjective as the testing out there shows it’s no better or worse than all the other modern cameras out there that use the same sensor, certainly as good as my old d600 which produced stunning results at base iso.

 

[Sootchucker]

TBH, as good as Sony AF-C undoubtably is, I very much doubt if even a Sony would have given a perfect result with these two dogs. When I had a look at the real OOF images, most of them I'd lost the dog under the AF point so it focussed on the background (very sharpy ),

So I feel whilst hardware and software on the cameras used is quite obviously very important, a big chunk of the success in getting sharp photos of very quickly moving subject is as much about technique and keeping the AF points on the subject and tracking the subject as it moves (quite often very unpredictably) - no amount of amazing hardware will help you if you fail to actually focus on the subject you are tying to photograph.

Like Stephen, I don't shoot much quick moving stuff myself, so when I do, I most likely don't have the required skills to give the camera the best chance by keeping the subject in the viewfinder !

 

[Stephen L]

It’s not ill will, it’s simply joining in a conversation following a user posting up with focusing issues.

As for image quality that’s far more subjective as the testing out there shows it’s no better or worse than all the other modern cameras out there that use the same sensor, certainly as good as my old d600 which produced stunning results at base iso.

If you read my post, I refer to "other forums", not TP.

Again, if you read my post, I refer to the IQ as being the best I have experienced.

 

[Brazo]

If you read my post, I refer to "other forums", not TP.

Again, if you read my post, I refer to the IQ as being the best I have experienced.

I think if I was you you I would feeel the same way about the Z’s. And my requirements did match your own a few years back but now they differ. And yes I did read your post and yes I still feel your using subjective language as justification.

 

[Stephen L]

I think if I was you you I would feeel the same way about the Z’s. And my requirements did match your own a few years back but now they differ. And yes I did read your post and yes I still feel your using subjective language as justification.

We shall have to agree we are both singing from the same hymn sheet, albeit in different keys.

 

[Thunderbird010]

Shameless plug but if anyone is after a 50mm 1.8 Z version I've put mine up in the classifieds

 

[keeweeman]

On the subject of autofocus (going back a few posts i know), did anyone see the matt granger video comparing the sony, nikon and canon ML? I thought it made for some interesting results in fairness

 

[Doug]

Shameless plug but if anyone is after a 50mm 1.8 Z version I've put mine up in the classifieds

Now that is tempting! I'm wondering about the 35 and 85 prime combo or the 14-30 and 50mm combo.

 

[AZ6]

Shameless plug but if anyone is after a 50mm 1.8 Z version I've put mine up in the classifieds

Can I ask why? I bought mine just a few weeks ago, but already, it's one lens I will NOT be getting rid of, whilst I have a Z mount camera! It's just stunning. I did a nerdy comparison test with a 50mm f1.4G, a f1.8D, and an old f1.8Ai, and it's just in another league. The f1.4G was the weakest. That got sold on straight away. Gone.

 

[Stephen L]

Can I ask why? I bought mine just a few weeks ago, but already, it's one lens I will NOT be getting rid of, whilst I have a Z mount camera! It's just stunning. I did a nerdy comparison test with a 50mm f1.4G, a f1.8D, and an old f1.8Ai, and it's just in another league. The f1.4G was the weakest. That got sold on straight away. Gone.

Tend to agree. I have one. It’s not used enough, but I wouldn’t want rid.

 

[redhed17]

Jared Polin (Fro knows Photo) put out a vid a couple of days ago testing the latest Nikon Firmware, mainly the face/eye AF, for anyone that hasn't seen it. He goes into a bit of detail.

Wildlife Photographer Steve Perry has also done tests with the Firmware update in relation to wildlife in particular.

 

[AZ6]

I like Jared. His whole schtick can be a bit jarring, and he's not quite the comedian he thinks he is. But I find him generally reasonably fair, unlike some other popular SM 'influencers'. Of the shouty narcissist, he's not too bad. I didn't like him, but then I watched a thing he did about a visit to Auschwitz, and my opinion of him changed. That bald bloke with the Greek name can **** right off though. And that whiny annoying couple. Get in the sea!

 

[AZ6]

Tend to agree. I have one. It’s not used enough, but I wouldn’t want rid.

It's made me look again, at a 'boring' 50mm lens. It's so good. I haven't used my other 50's that much, but this new one, I find myself wanting to take pics with it, it's so good. I'm really wanting an 85mm now. And Please Nikon; please, make a 135 f2.8 or similar. Please.

 

[Stephen L]

It's made me look again, at a 'boring' 50mm lens. It's so good. I haven't used my other 50's that much, but this new one, I find myself wanting to take pics with it, it's so good. I'm really wanting an 85mm now. And Please Nikon; please, make a 135 f2.8 or similar. Please.

I’ve got the 85 winging (or limping) its way to me as we speak. Seems there’s some doubt as to its exact location. For a 135mm I use a Takumar. Or for 100mm, my favourite silver nose Zuiko.

 

[wee jake]

I’ve got the 85 winging (or limping) its way to me as we speak. Seems there’s some doubt as to its exact location. For a 135mm I use a Takumar. Or for 100mm, my favourite silver nose Zuiko.

I have the 14-30 24-70 and the 50mm zeds and think they are very good looking forward to reviews for the 85 might have to sell some other f mount lenses lol

 

[Stephen L]

I have the 14-30 24-70 and the 50mm zeds and think they are very good looking forward to reviews for the 85 might have to sell some other f mount lenses lol

There are quite a few reviews of the 85 on You Tube. All seem to be positive.

 

[snerkler]

I have to admit, that having owned over the last 15-20 years or so, over 20 Nikon DSLR bodies, the two Z's that I have (Z6 & Z7), are the most fun i've ever had with a Nikon camera, and form factor wise are really close to my Olympus systems which I also love. There's just something about the Z bodies that make you want to pick them up and shoot with them. Sure the single card slot might have been a mistake (although I still believe XQD really does go a long way to cancelling that argument out), the software was undoubtedly unfinished when the cameras were launched (a lot has changed in Firmware updates), but despite all that they produce some of the best , most detailed, sharpest best exposed images I've ever had from any camera.

If they can bring the AF-C and tracking upto (and surpass) Sony standards, they will be pretty unbeatable.

The Z's are great and I'd tend to agree that they are probably the best Nikon bodies I've used in terms of form. However, I did prefer the AF mode button and drive dial of the DSLRs. The firmware updates made huge improvements and I'm confident the Gen 2 bodies will go toe to toe with Sony.

I looked at (several) Sony ML cameras, as a small, lightweight 'travel' alternative, but each time, was put off by what I felt were poor ergonomics and control layouts. .

Up until the A7RIV I'd completely agree, they have got it more or less right with the A7RIV and A9-II though.

Tend to agree. I have one. It’s not used enough, but I wouldn’t want rid.

The 50mm f1.8S is an incredible lens imo. It's just a shame modern primes are getting as big as they are.

 

[AZ6]

I’ve got the 85 winging (or limping) its way to me as we speak. Seems there’s some doubt as to its exact location. For a 135mm I use a Takumar. Or for 100mm, my favourite silver nose Zuiko.

I'm gonna wait for the Nikkor versions. Most Z lenses so far are being compared favourably to even the über expensive Zeiss and Leica stuff. Nikon have oft been accused of failing to move forwards with technology, but one thing they do know about, is lens design. The new PF telephotos could really benefit sports and wildlife photography, they're so much smaller and lighter. And so far, we've only seen the 'consumer' lenses, the f1.8s. If these are that good, what will the 'pro' lenses be like???! Exciting times.

Up until the A7RIV I'd completely agree, they have got it more or less right with the A7RIV and A9-II though.

I just don't get on with the Sony design philosophy, tbh. Too set in my Nikon ways...

The 50mm f1.8S is an incredible lens imo. It's just a shame modern primes are getting as big as they are.

I had hoped for some little diddy lenses, but I suppose if getting the best quality means the lenses end up bigger, then that's a compromise I'll have to accept. If I wanted to compromise on image quality, I could go to MFT....

 

[AZ6]

.

Sorry; my eyesight isn't what it once was, I'm struggling to see how many gold stars there are by your beautiful Liver bird avatar. Is it five? Or maybe six?

 

[snerkler]

I just don't get on with the Sony design philosophy, tbh. Too set in my Nikon ways...


..

Yeah, design is a very personal and important part.

Tbh moving from Nikon DSLR to Nikon mirrorless took some adapting, even though some buttons and dials felt very familiar.