No flash ... daughter on sofa..

[studiowork]

OK. so a little shot earlier today, bit of PP in LR4.3 (trial) [not exactly sure how to use it, but thats another story...]

and the original photo (from camera

Shot at:
F4.5 1/30 ISO400

BTW: please be brutally honest

 

[Rustico]

To be honest, I think you need to do it over again with quite a bit more light. I can see the moodiness you are going for, but even the darkest pictures need light.
Looking at your tech. specs. I'd say you need to use a larger aperture (more along the lines of f3.5 if you're using a kit lens).

Hope that helps!

 

[Pookeyhead]

It's just an under exposed snapshot that anyone could have taken. You can't see the sofa as it's so dark. The background is distracting and messy. it's very underexposed, and cropping into it has just made the softness more apparent.

Why crop in so much? If you didn't want the distracting background, why include it only to crop it out. All you've done is lose quality as a result.

Your light meter must have been informing you that it was under exposed.. why not up the ISO?

It's a nice little memory snapshot to keep as a memory, but that's all it is.

 

[Phil V]

Compared to the flas lit shots you can see the greatly improved lighting. As an exercise in using windowlight, it's a success.

But as above, you still need to practice framing and composition too.

These are a little underexposed, but as photographs they're a great improvement, unfortunately they also show how far you still have to go. Keep at it though, it'll come.

 

[studiowork]

Looking at your tech. specs. I'd say you need to use a larger aperture (more along the lines of f3.5 if you're using a kit lens).

cheers.

It's just an under exposed snapshot that anyone could have taken. You can't see the sofa as it's so dark. The background is distracting and messy. it's very underexposed, and cropping into it has just made the softness more apparent.

Looking at the file on here - i think FB must compress the file a little when i uploaded it... - it looks a lot crapper than the original ... I was actually aiming to get the sofa darker, but didnt work so well I guess...

but looking at the pic on here... its not the same quality that i took - and that i got my crop from (although exposure etc is - so thats my bad )

Why crop in so much? If you didn't want the distracting background, why include it only to crop it out. All you've done is lose quality as a result.

EXCELLENT POINT... (and this is yet another thing that I know, yet didnt think about ) - I could of done two things - move in, or zoom in...

Your light meter must have been informing you that it was under exposed.. why not up the ISO?

well, light meter on camera or external :rules: (i dont have a light meter - i did buy one on ebay, but turned out to be a LUX meter, and not a light meter in terms of photography: wife has said i cant spend any more money - yet ) - not worked out how I can use that for "still light" photography... (although, ive read it is possible)..

Compared to the flas lit shots you can see the greatly improved lighting. As an exercise in using windowlight, it's a success.

But as above, you still need to practice framing and composition too.

These are a little underexposed, but as photographs they're a great improvement, unfortunately they also show how far you still have to go. Keep at it though, it'll come.

Well, its only a week or two? since i began looking into taking indoor shots etc... and began the "real learning"... so hopefully
the fact that you say you can see an improvement actually gives me hope. - and the window light was "added to" by one of my "studio lights"...

I got my reflectors today... and tried testing some reflected flash... and even reflecting the flash i can see an improvement and more deapth to the pics - will post a pic when I get chance...

as for framing / composition...

i did see this article giving a ten "guidelines" to follow earlier today...
http://www.photographymad.com/pages/view/10-top-photography-composition-rules - and i "believe" it is just more info to help compose - although, i did know it on some level already, at least for now i know to use it
(i think it was a post on here i read: dont break the rules before you know how to follow them)

- BTW: FB images - is FB compression etc the reason why everyone seems to use flickr? - i notice FB isnt listed as an image provider on the FAQ...

 

[Phil V]

...

Well, its only a week or two? since i began looking into taking indoor shots etc... and began the "real learning"... so hopefully
the fact that you say you can see an improvement actually gives me hope. - and the window light was "added to" by one of my "studio lights"...

I got my reflectors today... and tried testing some reflected flash... and even reflecting the flash i can see an improvement and more deapth to the pics - will post a pic when I get chance...

...

- BTW: FB images - is FB compression etc the reason why everyone seems to use flickr? - i notice FB isnt listed as an image provider on the FAQ...

There's no discernible sign of any 'additional' lighting in those shots. What were you trying to achieve with your additional light? Can you see the effect?

When uploading to FB, you have to take control by resizing and finishing your image, if you just let FB add it's own compression it'll make a mess of it.
Always resize and sharpen as a last action to suit the target, whether that's a small print, large print or web (and save for that output option) so you can go back to your finished image and save it for a different output later.

In short FB is no different to anywhere else, you need to understand the limitations, but a Flickr account might be useful to you:shrug:

 

[studiowork]

There's no discernible sign of any 'additional' lighting in those shots. What were you trying to achieve with your additional light? Can you see the effect?

Well that proves the fact that the money on the light kit was wasted...

too a quick shot using reflector, and it has a better exposure than that with the light... the light is to the left of daughter (just right of camera.) - ahh well... at least the light stands / brollies might come in useful later - even if lights are useless... - stand can be used for reflector too.. just "expensive" price for what can only be used for as rubbish light stands

When uploading to FB, you have to take control by resizing and finishing your image, if you just let FB add it's own compression it'll make a mess of it.

ahh, ok.. I did compress it using the export in LR for "web" - went from 4mb to 200/300kb. not sure why FB did yet more compression... (however, i didnt resize it... will try that next time... i left it at original (3000px+). guess FB knocked about the colours etc. - guess thats why cropped pic hasnt really suffered - as its size was less resizing etc...

this site is 800px wide for pics? - will try later.

I have a flickr account, signed up for it on my phone... but use fb instead due to ease of emailing photo to adress book contact - might use it for uploads.

also on exposure... learnt that my lens kit isnt the best either - the more i zoom, the less i can open the Ap up. - which i didnt understand so much until a couple of days ago... - not so much a camera problem than a lens problem. (its not just "zoom" i should of worried about when i purchased my 200mm lens.) - therefore better to get the camera closer and zoom less for wider ap on this kinda shot.

 

[Phil V]

Well that proves the fact that the money on the light kit was wasted...

too a quick shot using reflector, and it has a better exposure than that with the light... the light is to the left of daughter (just right of camera.) - ahh well... at least the light stands / brollies might come in useful later - even if lights are useless... - stand can be used for reflector too.. just "expensive" price for what can only be used for as rubbish light stands



ahh, ok.. I did compress it using the export in LR for "web" - went from 4mb to 200/300kb. not sure why FB did yet more compression... (however, i didnt resize it... will try that next time... i left it at original (3000px+). guess FB knocked about the colours etc. - guess thats why cropped pic hasnt really suffered - as its size was less resizing etc...

this site is 800px wide for pics? - will try later.

I have a flickr account, signed up for it on my phone... but use fb instead due to ease of emailing photo to adress book contact - might use it for uploads.

also on exposure... learnt that my lens kit isnt the best either - the more i zoom, the less i can open the Ap up. - which i didnt understand so much until a couple of days ago... - not so much a camera problem than a lens problem. (its not just "zoom" i should of worried about when i purchased my 200mm lens.) - therefore better to get the camera closer and zoom less for wider ap on this kinda shot.

Where you went wrong with the resize was keeping the physical size massive and aiming for a small file size, that just gives you a large crap picture. With the same amount of data you can have a small nice picture.


And to add to the mixup of exposure and lighting, please stop saying zoom when you mean a longer focal length. When a 10-20mm is 'zoomed in' it's still a wide angle lens, the 'zooming' really means nothing in photographic terms.

Also the smaller aperture at greater focal lengths will still give a shallow DoF, look up some DoF calculators for clarification. Just remember that there are good reasons Pro's choose constant aperture zooms - but one of them isn't for their budget price

 

[studiowork]

well, I am new to the LR software - my pc isnt set up atm, so downloaded LR trial onto laptop. - i made the incorrect assumption that it resized as well as reducing file size - wrong was i lol.

And to add to the mixup of exposure and lighting, please stop saying zoom when you mean a longer focal length. When a 10-20mm is 'zoomed in' it's still a wide angle lens, the 'zooming' really means nothing in photographic terms.

ok

- and budget price - yeap...
ive just had a look at some 50mm 1.8g lenses for my nikon, and varying between 100 for used up to 200 or more for new... looks like can be a nice investment... for later

and DoF is something i played with previously, but need to tie into my work more now too - actually compose the entire image as one etc...

i took some shots earlier of my son, and mixed opinion of them... ive over exposed some parts of them, whilst the photos are also under exposed too...? - in addition to various other problems - his left eye is dramatically under exposed...

a change of model today though, as my daughter wanted to be very awkward and camera shy... unlike my son

Window to left, reflector to the right

DSC_0013 - F3.5 - 1/30th - ISO800

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151581636417150.1073741827.510642149&type=1&l=9d134b0979
a list of 14 photos on there....

problems I see though are:
on some of the pics his babygrow has blown out by the light.(im pretty sure this was from the window... and not from the reflector though... - or perhaps the angle of both hitting the same section.

also got a fair whack of motion blue due to the "slow" shutter speed. (lively boy ).

also, could of done without the cussion on the back - its a mess and creates the clutter more.


my daughter did decide she wanted to "be involved" after i was making charlie laugh so much though... so got a couple with them both (but she ran off again afterwards)

DSC_0034 - f3.5 - 1/40th - iso 800.
I shouldnt of increased the shutter speed, but they were being lively together and she was making him laugh - which meant a couple of motion blur... which resulted in the sofa being lost (again).
- also, I know - background clutter... - i was about to put the camera away for dinner, but daughter got upset that she didnt get her pic taken lol.

Ive done a little LR on them and came up with the following:
edit1: http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/p206x206/482464_10151580582402150_1627886457_n.jpg
left eye is totally missing... just a black void
edit 2: http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/p206x206/482464_10151580582402150_1627886457_n.jpg
again, whilst not a void, his left eye is messed up still
edit 3:

i like it because of his facial expression, and his eyes are actually clear in the shot.. However, the shot was spoilt by the total blowout on his babygrow (which i had a quick bash at fixing some...)

the problem was both original shot, and my editing "skill" - with the exception of his eye, edits on my son were more the look i was going for with the pic above of daughter. - so i think the biggest letdown was not upping the ISO as mentioned above by pooky / david.

and even the couple of shots i took at 400 were better with the reflector.

(also i know - i need to paint the wall by the radiator - just had new central heating so radiator doesnt cover the patch )

 

[gpc1]

I really want to give some advice as I have had such great advice on here that I want to give something back, also, we have all been where you are now and it’s a long long learning curve…..I have been shooting for years and years and still have a lot to learn ….so here goes……

The image of your son with his back to the radiator (and your daughter on the floor?) is actually the best one from a lighting point of view (lighting on your son that is). There is a lovely backlight coming from the window and reflected light on his face with catchlights. Think about WHY this is. Think about his position in relation to the light sources.

You are photographing a light subject against a dark background in a darkish room. What are you aiming for in terms of final image. Screen, print size etc If it’s a nice picture then that’s what you have, if its more and you want to make it ‘pop’ then take a step back, think about the subject, the scene, the lighting, the expressions, etc.

So, you want a good picture of your son (and daughter), well lit, natural, and sharp…….so lets break it down

Well Lit
As an example, the window light may be brighter at certain parts of the day, is it worth waiting until the light is better. Is it worth moving things off the window shelf. (although looking at the image the light is nice and diffused)

Can you raise the black floor / sofa more. If you bring the littlun up to window height and use the reflector you have already solved half the issue. You will have lovely diffused light on one side and a little bounced back on the other.

Shoot side on to the light ie the main window is camera left, reflector camera right littlun sitting facing camera or at a slight angle.

Doing this will then allow you to shoot at higher aperture, say f5.6. I’m not sure of your camera, but noise always looks worse on screen. You could push it to ISO 800. Noise reduction in LR is pretty powerful and noise resides in the shadows so using a lighter background would also help. Try throwing a grey sheet over the sofa. If you are after a black / dark background then expose for the highlights.

Tripod – if you have one, use one. If not then use a table, use a pole….anything that helps with stability.

Kids actions are quick, you need a shutter speed to compensate.

Natural
Kids are always natural, if you need to focus his attention give him a little toy and then watch the expressions.

Sharp
So, perceivably sharp is what we talk about here. An image that is not sharp, but is never going to be on anything larger than an Iphone will look much sharper than the same image on a laptop, or in print.
You need to think about what is important in this situation and prioritise. Depth of field? Blur? Noise? All of which are side effects of getting a good exposure. Noise, you can live with, Depth of field….need to make sure the eyes are in the focal plane, shutter speed…..well, to me this is the one that drives the others in this case.
Dial in the shutter speed you need, say 1/100th. Dial in the acceptable fstop, say f5.6….whats the ISO you need to get correct exposure? Can you live with the noise or remove it in LR?
If the exposure on the subject is correct, then you won’t need to lighten the background because no one will really be paying attention to it, afterall the background is dark and you have a beatifull, correctly exposed littlun as the point of focus…..
Focus on the eye nearest the camera!

Reading material
Understanding exposure – Fantastic book.
The photographers eye

Youtube
Anything by neil ve vierk?? or Gerry ghionis??. These guys are wedding photographers but a wedding is a series of portraits in a multitude of lighting conditions….

Practice –
A famous tog once said your first 10,000 images are your worst…..well you can double that in my case lol!!!
Don’t give up, and ask questions on here. I have learnt so much from the guys on here.

Hope that helps

 

[Phil V]

Well put agreg.

 

[studiowork]

I really want to give some advice....

The image of your son with his back to the radiator (and your daughter on the floor?) is actually the best one from a lighting point of view (lighting on your son that is). There is a lovely backlight coming from the window and reflected light on his face with catchlights. Think about WHY this is. Think about his position in relation to the light sources.

Thanks for the advice... it is much appriciated - and im glad that im not the only one - it does make me feel a little easier about my work.

by catch lights you mean the glows from the reflected light in eyes etc, right?

You are photographing a light subject against a dark background in a darkish room. What are you aiming for in terms of final image. Screen, print size etc If it’s a nice picture then that’s what you have, if its more and you want to make it ‘pop’ then take a step back, think about the subject, the scene, the lighting, the expressions, etc.

Well, atm im aiming to improve everything. I want to be able to create a stunning piece of work...

So, you want a good picture of your son (and daughter), well lit, natural, and sharp…….so lets break it down

Well Lit
Light brighter at points of day.- morning / mid afternoon is brighter......

shoot side on- i actually learnt this already, and too a couple from the left, ...

ill try a throw over the sofa, and to shoot a shot or two from the left.

whether i keep LR im not sure yet., the free trial seems useful. but i do have photoshop so .

Tripod – i have one, and use it... - the motion blur was from son wriggling etc.

shutter speed. - aye...

Natural

he loves his walker now he can actually walk... I took this one today too... - two flashes, one 45* to left slighterly above his level, bounced down off card., and one roughly 90* to right about 3ft away - at his level.

this one was a few nights ago, when he didnt wanna sleep - i put him in his walker, and gave him his penguin:

Sharp
....
Dial in the shutter speed you need, say 1/100th. Dial in the acceptable fstop, say f5.6….whats the ISO you need to get correct exposure? Can you live with the noise or remove it in LR?
If the exposure on the subject is correct, then you won’t need to lighten the background because no one will really be paying attention to it, afterall the background is dark and you have a beatifull, correctly exposed littlun as the point of focus…..
Focus on the eye nearest the camera!

OK, thanks!

f3.5 is the lowest my lens will go to, so f5.6 seems fair.... - "can i fix it in lightroom" seems to be where in thinking atm...ive shot in JPG recently, because i havent been able to edit in PS. but i think i might go back to RAW - increase LR editing etc...

Reading material
Understanding exposure – Fantastic book.
The photographers eye

Youtube
Anything by neil ve vierk?? or Gerry ghionis??. These guys are wedding photographers but a wedding is a series of portraits in a multitude of lighting conditions….

Practice –
A famous tog once said your first 10,000 images are your worst…..well you can double that in my case lol!!!
Don’t give up, and ask questions on here. I have learnt so much from the guys on here.

Hope that helps

yeap, cheers. youtube i seem to be on all the time i can atm. - learning this and that... but its a lot to go on.

I have got lots of friends asking me to take pics of their kids on FB since ive been using it to upload to... so looks like i might have an endless list of free models - bonus points eh. - but i can see problems with my own pics now. so it makes me wonder why...
but all practice is good practice

 

[Phil V]

Just a reminder, well lit doesn't mean well exposed or brighter. I know it seems pedantic, but if you and us aren't speaking the same 'language' you'll never understand the advice.

Lighting 'well' means creating/ finding good light, which suits your subject.

Your exposures are still 'all over the place' what method are you using to meter? What mode is your camera in?

 

[gpc1]

Phil is correct, light , lit and exposure are too diferent things .

You have a subject well lit, but exposure can be screwed.

I should have explained that.