Concepts Not hard enough?

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sirch

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A chance to warm up the new Photographic Concepts forum and take it for a spin :)

I often see photos that I like along the lines of Jem Southam's work where the photo is apparently just what was in front of the camera at the time. I'm sure that is not the case and that they have been carefully composed and a lot of thought has gone into them but there has not apparently been an effort to get up at dawn or or wait for blue skies and fluffy clouds, you know the sort of thing. But when I go out snapping I invariably do not come back with those photos, in fact I often see those scenes and reject them as things I want to shoot. As a result I have been pondering why? Why when I like that kind of photo don't I shoot them and I think I have come to two conclusions, firstly they don't seem difficult enough, with a modern digital camera they are really just point-and-shoot shots. Secondly I don't really think I know how to process them into the sort of image that I really like.

Thoughts please? Do you take photos that emulate styles that you enjoy viewing by others or do you just do your own thing and are happy enough with that?
 
I feel.the same when viewing William Egglestones work just seem like snapshots which I try in vain to replicate
 
Thoughts please? Do you take photos that emulate styles that you enjoy viewing by others or do you just do your own thing and are happy enough with that?
A bit of both for me.

I love researching other photographers (i.e. looking at pictures) - especially ones who have made a lifelong career from it. Special exemption for Vivian Maier though. I can't unsee what I've seen and thus I'd like to think that a little bit of all the things I like make up my photos.

Creating an image I'm pleased with requires quite a lot of things to come together. Equipment can play a part in that, and clearly digital makes life a lot easier. However for me - it's simply that - a part. Composition, lighting and subject also need to come together for the image to work. The vast amount of time, this doesn't happen. There's always an excuse... The lighting wasn't right, I didn't have the right lens/film/camera combination, people were in the way, etc etc. But this is a problem for the pros too. Magnum's "Contact Sheets" book shows all the duffers alongside the keepers and is one of my most thumbed resources.

Creating an image has to start with vision though. And if I don't like what I'm looking at enough to take the picture, then it doesn't matter how much pp I do. When I see a lovely sunset, I have to ask what it means to me. Often, it doesn't mean much. Doesn't mean I don't like looking at other people's photos though.

Nature/Macro is a prime example of this for me. I love seeing other people's tiny spiders and other small things, but I have zero interest in trying to do it myself.

Bah - this ended up being a ramble but I'll put it up anyways. Not sure if there was a point...
 
Do you take photos that emulate styles that you enjoy viewing by others or do you just do your own thing and are happy enough with that?
I did when I first started out in 1976 when I was a 'fan' of HC-B and Kértész but seem to have fairly quickly developed my own style for the kinds of pictures I make most of the time. I notice this when I look back at my of pictures and recognise subject matter and ways of framing shots that I use these days. I find this interesting because I stopped doing photography for its own sake around 1982 and only took it up again in 2010.

@gjhill mentioning Eggleston resonated whith me because I had a brief spell when I was possibly trying to take 'Martin Parr's' but soon realised that isn't as easy as might be imagined, and also that I didn't really want to. I suspect there is a subconscious influence there at times.

I didn't stop taking photos, I've thousands of slides from the intervening years but they're all fishing related - either taken as trophy shots or for magazine articles - and even in some of those I recognise the same ways of organising the frame and looking for viewpoints which aren't the usual 'snapshot' view.

It's still a mystery to me why I take a lot of the photos I do. I hadn't been aware of Eggleston when I first returned to photography, but as soon as I did his pictures sort of gave me a justification for some of my 'pictures of nothing much'.

These days I'm as likely to be influenced by a photographer's thinking as their pictures.

Circa 1979/81.

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From my first outings with a DSLR in 2010.

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Thanks for the replies, I just got in and I was going to reply but I think I'll be a bit more able to make a coherent response tomorrow :)
 
I think the difference here is how much time you can spend with a photograph (image) - if you glance at it and move on then its more likely to be in the snapshot (not hard enough) category but if you spend longer looking at it, then maybe its elevated to a more meaningful photograph. This is about your photographs as opposed to looking at someone elses.

Looking at the work of others; now the above is very subjective, if you don't care for a genre of photography then you will only ever glance at it. And as @Harlequin565 says you can appreciate the work of others even if you have no interest in replicating similar images.

For me I need something to draw me into an image, that might be a leading line, the lighting, it may be multiple layers, or even a subject that I connect with. I should know by now that if I can't connect to the image, it will be in the snapshot category, but sometimes I still blast away - what am I hoping for?

Even though with digital we can take 10s (100s) of images on an outing, I almost always know before I process which shots I'm interested in. I am though particularly bad at actually deleting rubbish (IMO) images - but maybe that is the 'documentary' photographers curse as in 20 years time something might be interesting in those images.

I'd add Stephen Shore (Uncommon Places) to those photographs that seem innocuous but draw you in.
 
Do you take photos that emulate styles that you enjoy viewing by others or do you just do your own thing and are happy enough with that?
I believe I'm doing my own thing but, when I look at my images, I can see that I am emulating pictures from other photographers which have caught my attention.

Two women talking on bench Sidmouth Market DSC00427.JPG

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Man stroking his beard S10 NIK_1541.JPG
 
I read somewhere that Jane Bown only ever took two photos of a portrait subject. She'd come to realise that when she took more it was either the first or the last which was best, so she cut out all the ones in between! I've found that when I see something and take a quick snap of it then 'work the scene' (as we're so often advised to do) the first one is the best. My thinking is that there was something that grabbed my attention from where I stood when I spotted the scene, and that something was the interesting thing. Working the scene leads to overthinking and the intuitive part of the creative process gets pushed out. Just my way of working.

When I first became aware of the work of Nan Goldin it made no impression on me. Not my cup of tea at all. But as there was much adulation for her I bought a small book of her photos and suddenly it made sense. They look like snapshots, but when you really look at them it becomes clear they aren't. I think that's when I stopped concentrating on the shackles of Cartier-Bresson's 'geometry' and realise that subject and expression can also 'make' a good or great photograph. Discovering Tom Wood (another who's photos can look like snaps) was another step along that road. If you can combine this emotional stuff with the geometry stuff then that's really something. But it's bloody difficult!
 
I do not normally look at the work of these famous photographers and do not wish to emulate their work. I take my own images and process how I wish. Of course, I am influenced by other images I see often by fellow club members but again I do not try to emulate their work. As I enter many competitions, I do get lots of feedback. Apart from trying to win some competitions, I am not taking images just for competitions. I do cover most genres so accept the risk that I may not be very expert at many or any of them.

I went out last Monday to take some shots but had planned this expedition a couple of years ago but COVID has made it difficult. Firstly, the location was South Wales which was closed part of the time. I also needed Low sun and low tide for what I wanted so it has taken a long time for all of these requirements to line up on a free day. I am satisfied with my visit as I enjoyed the journey and challenge but they may not be competition material but that does not matter. If you can decide what you want to capture and how you want is to look and achieve that, it is enough.

Dave
 
I have other things to do with my time and I want to do my own thing in photography. I won a book by Joe Cornish recently but have not found time to read more than 3 pages. I have nothing against Joe Cornish and even went to lecture he gave some years ago which was enjoyable.

Dave
 
I often see photos that I like along the lines of Jem Southam's work where the photo is apparently just what was in front of the camera at the time. I'm sure that is not the case and that they have been carefully composed and a lot of thought has gone into them but there has not apparently been an effort to get up at dawn or or wait for blue skies and fluffy clouds, you know the sort of thing.
I still suffer from single image syndrome (less so nowadays), and have always struggled with Jem Southam's work, and similar, as individual images haven't felt "special" enough to warrant his reputation.

There are several things that have forced me to rethink. As you mentioned, with more careful study, many apparent snapshots have had a great deal of thought put into them, and secondly, having listened to Jem discuss his work, it changed the way I looked at and assessed it. Behind much of this kind of work is a clear intent and purpose, which, while not always essential to know about, can make a crucial difference to understanding and appreciating it
But when I go out snapping I invariably do not come back with those photos, in fact I often see those scenes and reject them as things I want to shoot. As a result I have been pondering why? Why when I like that kind of photo don't I shoot them and I think I have come to two conclusions, firstly they don't seem difficult enough, with a modern digital camera they are really just point-and-shoot shots. Secondly I don't really think I know how to process them into the sort of image that I really like.
Based on my own experiences, I think this might be through a lack of intent and purpose, something that clearly lies behind Jem Southam's images The difficult bit of photography for me is the visualisation of what I want from the photograph. Digital hasn't made that any easier. This also extends to the processing. I can process a pleasing enough image most of the time, the problem is deciding what sort of image best matches what I want to say, which brings me back to intent and purpose.

As I mentioned in the Documentary thread, I've been photographing the same bit of small woodland since Covid began. It's 500m from my front door, 750m long and between 50m and 150m wide. Before Covid I had driven alongside it, but never walked through it. It's a scruffy bit of woodland, which has reclaimed a site of small scale quarrying, meaning it has very uneven ground with shallow soils and rocky outcrops, and a dismantled railway line along one edge. On average I have walked through it two to three times a week

I've enjoyed my time taking photographs in these woods, but it's been a bit aimless. other than "capturing" the wood through the seasons, and I haven't finalised any images. After the documentary thread, I went back to the wood with a new purpose. I now wanted to try and say something about the relationship between the woodland and the quarrying, and to say something about how nature had reclaimed the old railway line.

In some ways this has made the photography more difficult, as I have a clearer measure of "success or failure" than before, but equally, the clearer focus of "why" I am making the photographs has made things easier, both in the taking and processing. I am still taking time over every picture, but I could easily get away with a point and shoot approach as I have clearer idea of what I want to point at.

Although, I'm still not sure how it needs processed, and its 5 shot pano (not a snapshot), the picture below from yesterday shows a rocky outcrop, a fallen tree (shallow soils) and the scruffy chaos of the woodland, so although I don't see it going on my wall, it says more about this woodland than some of the prettier and more "location independent" pictures I've taken. Although, this is still my first working proof, I get the feeling that getting a final image I'm happy with is going to be easier than usual because the image has a more clearly defined purpose. At least, this is what I am thinking at the moment.



Thoughts please? Do you take photos that emulate styles that you enjoy viewing by others or do you just do your own thing and are happy enough with that?
I look at lots of photographs from many genre, and listen to talks from, and about, many different photographers, as well as reading about photographers. I can't see how it's possible for me to have remained uninfluenced by their work, and for some of this to be reflected in my own. But I'm not conscious of ever trying to emulate, or copy, the work of another photographer. I think, on balance, I do my own thing.
 
I came in here to reply to some of the comments but on reading all the detailed and thoughtful responses above I am still absorbing and processing,

The thing I would add is that we are bombarded with colourful, saturated, sharp, contrasty images all the time and I think my feeble brain just has an expectation of that kind of image so that is what it shoots, whether I want to or not o_O

I take the point about intent and perhaps that is something I don't have. I do like snapping one-off shots to print and put on the wall so the intent there is I suppose just to get a decorative shot. For a long time I have thought about producing more collections and thanks to @Harlequin565 and the zine swap I did finally produce some zines, I wasn't very happy with what I produced but at least I got something finished. However they were more collections of photos not necessarily taken specifically for a zine theme so there wasn't really an intent when the photo was taken. The intent emerged later.

One thing I have noticed when culling the digital spray-and-pray is that mostly I go for the first image from a location, that said I don't really ever spray-and-pray, I often spend a while moving around looking at the options before taking a shot but then I may take a few others from slightly different positions.
 
When I first became aware of the work of Nan Goldin
I get my students to research random photographers drawn from a bag during my classes. Pick one photo, do a bit of research, then come back to the lesson and say what you think. Without exception, Nan Goldin always draws the most divisive of reactions. It's made me wonder whether wholly positive/negative reviews are better than those that are simply ambivalent.

I look at lots of photographs from many genre, and listen to talks from, and about, many different photographers, as well as reading about photographers. I can't see how it's possible for me to have remained uninfluenced by their work, and for some of this to be reflected in my own. But I'm not conscious of ever trying to emulate, or copy, the work of another photographer. I think, on balance, I do my own thing.
This is really insightful wording IMO. If I think about how driving is so much a learned behaviour to begin with, and after a number of years [of practise] becomes almost unconscious, it's possible to see how that "informed subconscious" (for want of a better word) can influence/affect my photography if I spend a lot of time reading about/looking at other images.

Everyone has been influenced by images they have seen, no matter how much they protest (IMvHO of course!). They've been looking at pictures their entire life. Movies, paintings, magazines & newspapers. It's not just the "fine art photography" brigade that do research. It's just likely it wasn't conscious.

Another tuppence into the jar...
 
Do you take photos that emulate styles that you enjoy viewing by others or do you just do your own thing and are happy enough with that?
Yes, I’ve found it a good way to learn. I found breaking down what goes in to creating the style and trying to emulate forces me to try new things that I not otherwise have thought about. I still don’t have a distinctive style of my own.
 
It's made me wonder whether wholly positive/negative reviews are better than those that are simply ambivalent.
No such thing as bad publicity. I've tended to regard Nan Golding's work as of "of its time", she was I believe pioneering and really broke new ground but looked at from today's perspective it does not seem to be so extraordinary.
 
Everyone has been influenced by images they have seen, no matter how much they protest (IMvHO of course!). They've been looking at pictures their entire life. Movies, paintings, magazines & newspapers.
John Berger - Ways of Seeing
 
...really broke new ground but looked at from today's perspective it does not seem to be so extraordinary.
That's the fate of all revolutionary movements in art.
 
I take the point about intent.....

is that mostly I go for the first image from a location,
This is definitely 'the intent' - and often this is the view that you envisage in your mind, however my experience tells me that I will (usually) rush this shot (in my excitement) and end up with unintended framing - something extra in teh frame or something cut off.

I really need to slow down!
 
This is definitely 'the intent' - and often this is the view that you envisage in your mind, however my experience tells me that I will (usually) rush this shot (in my excitement) and end up with unintended framing - something extra in teh frame or something cut off.

I really need to slow down!
Interesting. For me intent is more about why am I taking the shot, will I print it? is it part of a series and if so what does it add to the series?
 
Interesting. For me intent is more about why am I taking the shot, will I print it? is it part of a series and if so what does it add to the series?
Me too :)

But it's also visualising how the final print/image should look.
 
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I now wanted to try and say something about the relationship between the woodland and the quarrying, and to say something about how nature had reclaimed the old railway line.
Thus a documentary purpose - valid, of course! But at the same time an approach that involves preconception - a cerebral imposition that could interfere with a more organic way of seeing?
 
Thus a documentary purpose - valid, of course! But at the same time an approach that involves preconception - a cerebral imposition that could interfere with a more organic way of seeing?
Indeed, and as that post referred back to the thread on documentary photography, it was a conscious decision to take a documentary approach.

While I agree with the cerebral argument, I also wonder whether the "sense of place", that the historical research for a location might give, could also influence/enhance, (rather than the negative connotations of interfere) with a more organic way of seeing, in the same way that birdsong or the sound of waves, or the sound of wind blowing through the trees might do.
 
While working as a "landscape photographer" (I've grown to dislike that term) and a wildlife photographer for many a year, I've always had a bit of a sideline - while out in the landscape I've sometimes come across quirky, incongruous or downright ugly scenes which tell us more about our relationship with the landscape than most of my (or anybody's) actual landscapes do. At first I called them "human landscapes" although I don't feel that that description really does them justice now. Some say more about us than the landscape.

As some of you know I've been a big fan of Fay Godwin for many years as well as the Joe Cornish's of this world; both have their place in the world of outdoor photography. But to go back to the human landscapes it has been ambition of mine to put them all together in a big splurge and as a prelude (hopefully) to an exhibition I put together a photobook which I finally did at the end of last year. It's been known variously as my " Black and White Project", my "Retrospective of Sorts" and my " Homage to Fay Godwin".

And it was really quite an eye-opener. I realised most of them had been taken almost out of the corner of my eye, while I was actually intent on taking other photographs. Mostly other landscapes, sometimes wildlife and surprisingly often while I was driving from A to B and just saw something. Many of them are at places where I stopped, took a picture and moved on. I know I will never be back there again. To that extent they are very different to most traditional landscapes where a certain amount of pre-planning is involved. I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees a fantastic landscape from the driver's seat of a car, stops, walks back and that brilliant vision has completely disappeared! These are different.

Anyway, I'm not sure where this ramble is going but it feels kind of relevant to the original post. Two distinct styles, two different approaches, two different methods...........
 
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Anyway, I'm not sure where this ramble is going but it feels kind of relevant to the original post.
It certainly is and sounds like what I meant by "not hard enough", see a shot, take it and move on. No planning, no getting up before dawn, no tripod, filters or other faff.
 
Well I looked the term up & found: "Psychogeography gained popularity in the 1990s when artists, writers and filmmakers such as Iain Sinclair and Patrick Keiller began using the idea to create works based on exploring locations by walking." How else does one explore a (land-based) location, for flip's sake? It just sounds like babble for the sake of it, maybe along with the desire to sell something.
 
Well I looked the term up & found: "Psychogeography gained popularity in the 1990s when artists, writers and filmmakers such as Iain Sinclair and Patrick Keiller began using the idea to create works based on exploring locations by walking." How else does one explore a (land-based) location, for flip's sake?
I use Google maps. If I had a drone I might use that too. :)
 
No planning, no getting up before dawn, no tripod, filters or other faff.
That seems to me to be the Unique Selling Point of photography.

It allows you to record "now"...

Clock face CAN_5617.jpg
 
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