Off Camera Flash

Postie90

Postie90

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Steve
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4832f68d177bbb10e01954a88ab03a2c.jpg

Looking a little help on the above photograph, I like this style and trying to get it right, I've pegged up black felt, sat my little man around 50cm in front of it, got a canon speed lite 430ex to the left around 50cm from him, using the canon 650d to remote fire the flash, by doing this the pop up flash on the camera is lighting up the back drop I think? What's your thoughts? I do enjoy this style so trying to get it right is a must for me.... Would a wireless trigger system help so I don't use the pop up flash? Any advise would be great..... Thank you
 
2 points:

The shadows tell me that the built in flash is providing most of the light here. You need to set it to not fire or to fire at a couple (ish) stops below the 430ex.

It's no good just getting the flash away from the camera, it needs diffusing too, larger light sources create softer shadows. Try a softbox or a brolly.
 
As Phil said, there is little shadow, which is causing the shot to look a bit like a 'snap shot' rather than a professional photo.
If it is just for fun, get a cheap trigger off ebay, or if it is an investment, look to pay over £100 for the triggers, to make sure they last. The Canon ST-E2 is amazing, and can be picked up on here for less than £100.
Diffusion is also the key. Again, if this is just for fun at the moment, either a cheap white brolly from ebay, or even anything translucent. When we just played around with flashes many years ago, we used a collapsible white laundry basket!
Other bodge ideas could be a large translucent white toybox kind of thing?
But as always, if you are planning on this being more than a hobby, DONT waste your money on cheap kit from China, as it really doesn't last long. It's much better to get the right gear at the beginning, as you are only going to have to replace it pretty quickly otherwise.
Also, to avoid lighting the backdrop, bring the little one much further away from it. If we are shooting against black (although we actually use a grey paper) in the studio, the subject is usually 10 feet or more from the backdrop. This reduces the amount of light that hits it. (good old inverse square law!)
 
just another thought for a bodge fix if it is just for fun....
you could place a piece of black card a little way in front of the on-camera-flash.
This would allow the flash trigger signal to bounce back to the external flash, but it wouldn't hit the subject.
Just a thought.
=)
 
AnA Photography said:
DONT waste your money on cheap kit from China, as it really doesn't last long. It's much better to get the right gear at the beginning, as you are only going to have to replace it pretty quickly otherwise.
Click to expand...

I can't go along with this advice. It is better to buy something rather than nothing and get shooting. The "China kit" is very widely used and it works. To be honest, I'm getting a little tired of "China kit" getting bashed ad lib.
 
JennyGW said:
I can't go along with this advice. It is better to buy something rather than nothing and get shooting. The "China kit" is very widely used and it works. To be honest, I'm getting a little tired of "China kit" getting bashed ad lib.
Click to expand...
I fully agree, it is better to buy something rather than nothing, IF it is for a hobby or for fun, as I mentioned repeatedly in my post.
But if you are planning on using it a lot, then it is a false economy. When we first started studio work, we used imported triggers at £30-£40 a set. They would have to be replaced pretty much every 6 months, as bits would either fall off, or the would just stop working. About 4 years ago, we spent around £120 on a decent set of triggers, and are still running them now.
When we needed extra flash guns for weddings, we bought Jessops, as they were £100 cheaper than the 2 Canons we already had, but the bases are made of plastic which easily breaks, which means 2 out of the 3 now can't be hot shoe mounted, and the one that can, randomly decides to ignore the ETTL info from the camera. The same goes for backdrop and light stands, camera bags, lenses etc. If you are using them every day, the cheap kit can't cope with it.
I can only go by, and give advice on our own experience and what I have learnt over the years. Just trying to help people not make the same mistakes we did.
 
JennyGW said:
I can't go along with this advice. It is better to buy something rather than nothing and get shooting. The "China kit" is very widely used and it works. To be honest, I'm getting a little tired of "China kit" getting bashed ad lib.
Click to expand...
I'll add I sold my Pocketwizards flex triggers to buy Yongnuos, because the PW's kept letting me down. The YN622s are much more reliable in my experience. I'm waiting for the TX for Canon with baited breath. I can't wait to have a play at hyper sync with my new Safari2 (not so much that I'd re-buy PW's).

The only Chinese stuff I'd buy though is from the known brands, I wouldn't buy the no - name versions of the kit we know, because when stuff goes wrong, sending it back to Hong Kong would be a big issue, I'm happy buying from UK suppliers, my IPad was made in China, what's not to like.

For what I got selling my PW's I bought a pair of 622's and two Yongnuo flash guns, and they've been brilliant.
 
AnA Photography said:
As Phil said, there is little shadow, which is causing the shot to look a bit like a 'snap shot' rather than a professional photo.
If it is just for fun, get a cheap trigger off ebay, or if it is an investment, look to pay over £100 for the triggers, to make sure they last. The Canon ST-E2 is amazing, and can be picked up on here for less than £100.
Diffusion is also the key. Again, if this is just for fun at the moment, either a cheap white brolly from ebay, or even anything translucent. When we just played around with flashes many years ago, we used a collapsible white laundry basket!
Other bodge ideas could be a large translucent white toybox kind of thing?
But as always, if you are planning on this being more than a hobby, DONT waste your money on cheap kit from China, as it really doesn't last long. It's much better to get the right gear at the beginning, as you are only going to have to replace it pretty quickly otherwise.
Also, to avoid lighting the backdrop, bring the little one much further away from it. If we are shooting against black (although we actually use a grey paper) in the studio, the subject is usually 10 feet or more from the backdrop. This reduces the amount of light that hits it. (good old inverse square law!)
Click to expand...
You don't need to do anything to stop the on camera dominating except to dial it down. It's there in the menu.
The biggest issue is getting the light softened.

If the OP really felt the need a pair of YN622s would make life easier in the long run.
 
Phil V said:
I'll add I sold my Pocketwizards flex triggers to buy Yongnuos, because the PW's kept letting me down. The YN622s are much more reliable in my experience. I'm waiting for the TX for Canon with baited breath. I can't wait to have a play at hyper sync with my new Safari2 (not so much that I'd re-buy PW's).

The only Chinese stuff I'd buy though is from the known brands, I wouldn't buy the no - name versions of the kit we know, because when stuff goes wrong, sending it back to Hong Kong would be a big issue, I'm happy buying from UK suppliers, my IPad was made in China, what's not to like.

For what I got selling my PW's I bought a pair of 622's and two Yongnuo flash guns, and they've been brilliant.
Click to expand...

I'm using 2 x Yongnuo 568EX II's and 4 x YN622C's. Had them for nearly a year and they have not let me down yet.
 
gary996 said:
I guess you can't set the 650D flash to not add to the photo?
Click to expand...

I recall reading that it's possible to have the on camera flash optically trigger the off camera flashes and not have the on camera flash show in the image. Something to do with the sync speeds? I can't find the info, can anyone add to this?
 
The YN flashes can also be set to ignore the trigger pre-flash from on camera flash..
 
Phil V said:
You don't need to do anything to stop the on camera dominating except to dial it down. It's there in the menu.
The biggest issue is getting the light softened.

If the OP really felt the need a pair of YN622s would make life easier in the long run.
Click to expand...

Hi Phil, thank you for yr imput as I have a bit off spare cash and you said they will help in the long run I'm going to buy a pair off yn622s will get them ordered in the morning... Photography is a hobby for me, but something that intrigues me so if something I can buy will help me... Then I will buy it with in reason... As my son is only 8 months I have a few yrs yet for getting photos off him.... As for diffusing the light? Strangely I was at a meal tonight and a guy was shooting away with what looked like a plastic milk bottle over his flash? Something like this...
http://www.wexphotographic.com/buy-...lapsible-generation-five-speed-mount/p1549090
 
The fong dong, and similar things have a limited use, you want to aim for a stand and a softbox.

4 simple Physics things that'll help drive decisions about lighting

1. Light travels in straight lines, so you can easily work out both reflections and shadows

2. The apparently larger light source will create softer light

3. Shadows are the point of controlling light, they create the 3d form.

4. The inverse square law; if you double the distance your light has to travel, you have to quadruple the required power. This also means that if you put someone close to a large light source, the shadows will darken because the ISL means the distance from the light is effectively greater.
 
Mentioned above is a soft box? Again nothing professional, but nothing cheap can anyone drop a link to what I should consider? Thanks...
 
Search Amazon for speedlight softbox, I can't recommend a particular one, but look for two diffusers.

Look for an easy up design, either an umbrella type or an ezybox type. Start with a 2ft square one. While you're there get a cheap light stand and a 5in1 reflector.

Once you've exhausted that, you'll be ready for mains powered flash.

Where are you? There might be a local member happy to help you out.
 
AnA Photography said:
As Phil said, there is little shadow, which is causing the shot to look a bit like a 'snap shot' rather than a professional photo.
If it is just for fun, get a cheap trigger off ebay, or if it is an investment, look to pay over £100 for the triggers, to make sure they last. The Canon ST-E2 is amazing, and can be picked up on here for less than £100.
Diffusion is also the key. Again, if this is just for fun at the moment, either a cheap white brolly from ebay, or even anything translucent. When we just played around with flashes many years ago, we used a collapsible white laundry basket!
Other bodge ideas could be a large translucent white toybox kind of thing?
But as always, if you are planning on this being more than a hobby, DONT waste your money on cheap kit from China, as it really doesn't last long. It's much better to get the right gear at the beginning, as you are only going to have to replace it pretty quickly otherwise.
Also, to avoid lighting the backdrop, bring the little one much further away from it. If we are shooting against black (although we actually use a grey paper) in the studio, the subject is usually 10 feet or more from the backdrop. This reduces the amount of light that hits it. (good old inverse square law!)
Click to expand...

Thanks for your tip, I will move little guy further away next time and see how it goes, also looking at getting a soft box as recommended by Phil, first hit on amazon searching speed lite soft box brought one up for just under £30... Worth it if will help me....
 
Phil V said:
Search Amazon for speedlight softbox, I can't recommend a particular one, but look for two diffusers.

Look for an easy up design, either an umbrella type or an ezybox type. Start with a 2ft square one. While you're there get a cheap light stand and a 5in1 reflector.

Once you've exhausted that, you'll be ready for mains powered flash.

Where are you? There might be a local member happy to help you out.
Click to expand...

I'm in the midlands Phil, Walsall/pelsall area.
 
Little update with advise from above and also purchased a pair yn 622s remote triggers.... I've had another go, moved little man a little further away from the background, off camera flash from the left at -1/3 power I think.... Feel I've got the black background perfect? Now I want to get the lighting correct if anyone can advise? Here's today's efforts....
1fb9afb202920dd71b05788dbd2f58de.jpg

4104a7e42d9dd268d7b40a3d31ca4fba.jpg

7c7ba984b1ccf1c254387d70bd4f8048.jpg
 
Are these with a softbox? It looks just too dark. Especially for baby pics. Would be nice to see a little catch light in the eyes too.
Bounce some light back in on the left side (of baby) with a reflector.
If you have another flash you need to separate the baby from the background.
I'm sure some better constructive criticism will be along shortly PhilV, Hoppy where are you guys
 
gary996 said:
Are these with a softbox? It looks just too dark. Especially for baby pics. Would be nice to see a little catch light in the eyes too.
Bounce some light back in on the left side (of baby) with a reflector.
If you have another flash you need to separate the baby from the background.
I'm sure some better constructive criticism will be along shortly PhilV, Hoppy where are you guys
Click to expand...
Hi Gary, these are straight out the camera... & no I've not used a softbox, I don't have one but looking to buy one... Ones been recommended on another thread... I don't have another flash at the moment... Will try a reflector next time see how that goes.... Anyone else got any other advise please.... Thanks everyone.
 
Phil V said:
...
It's no good just getting the flash away from the camera, it needs diffusing too, larger light sources create softer shadows. Try a softbox or a brolly.
Click to expand...
Well that point hasn't changed.
Whilst you're saving for a softbox, don't be afraid of bodging something up, bounce off a homemade reflector, anything to make the light larger, because larger is softer, and softer is what you're looking for here.
 
Phil V said:
Well that point hasn't changed.
Whilst you're saving for a softbox, don't be afraid of bodging something up, bounce off a homemade reflector, anything to make the light larger, because larger is softer, and softer is what you're looking for here.
Click to expand...

Agree.

Even putting a diffuser in front of the flash can get pretty good results. What you need to remember here is that as soon as you light the diffuser, the diffuser becomes your light source. So you change from having a light source the size of the flash head, to the size of the diffuser. Soft light = big light source/small subject. Hard light = small light source/big subject. Move a big light away and it becomes smaller in relation to the subject. Move a light closer and it becomes larger in relation to a subject.
 
Phil V said:
4. The inverse square law; if you double the distance your light has to travel, you have to quadruple the required power. This also means that if you put someone close to a large light source, the shadows will darken because the ISL means the distance from the light is effectively greater.
Click to expand...
In bold : I thought it was the opposite and the shadows would lighten if the subject was nearer to the light source, correct me if I'm wrong.
JohnyT
 
Last edited:
Johnytuono said:
In bold : I thought it was the opposite and the shadows would lighten if the subject was nearer to the light source, correct me if I'm wrong.
JohnyT
Click to expand...

The Inverse Square Law, an example.

Light is 2 feet from subject, a light reading is taken.
Light is moved to 4 feet, the light will now be 1/4 of the first reading.
Light is moved to 1 foot, the light will now be 4 times the first reading.

Take a point on your subject and look at how the light falls off, fades. If you have a very close light to your subject the fall off will be such that your subject may not even be fully lit. So to give yourself a farther spread of light move your light away from the subject.

Now think about your light hitting the background. Take a situation with your subject is standing something like 6 feet from the background. The closer the light is placed to the subject the darker the background will become. Move the light away and the background will get lighter. Try it :D

Careful not to confuse ISL and Wrap.
Example, a 24" square softbox. The closer it is to the subject the more the light will wrap around the subject and the light hitting the subject will be more diffused.

I find it helpful when I am moving lights around to think of f/stops all the time. What will the difference be on my subject, background, group, etc with each light change. This means I can quite often get pretty close with my guess on what aperture I'm going to set before even using a light meter - good enough for a test shot, perhaps. However, always use a light meter, when it becomes second nature to used one it will save you time and it will save you a lot of lost shots and lost customers (or friends and relatives who don't speak to you anymore).
 
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Johnytuono said:
In bold : I thought it was the opposite and the shadows would lighten if the subject was nearer to the light source, correct me if I'm wrong.
JohnyT
Click to expand...
This is where knowledge of the ISL appears to contradict what we know about the apparent size of a light source.

We all know that the (apparently) larger the light source the 'softer' the shadows, because the light wraps round the subject.

But ISL kicks in if we get a light source very close to a subject because the relative distance between the lit and unlit side of the subject is greater.

So a 120cm softbox at 1m produces a softer light than a 60cm one really close in, even if the apparent size is similar, the shadow pattern will differ greatly due to the ISL.

Edit: or what Jenny wrote.
 
"Now think about your light hitting the background. Take a situation with your subject is standing something like 6 feet from the background. The closer the light is placed to the subject the darker the background will become. Move the light away and the background will get lighter. Try it :D"

I tried this with a household spotlight and the opposite happened ie the nearer the light to the subject the lighter the shadow on the background........are we talking about the same thing?
JohnyT

EDIT Realised I'm talking about the subject shadow whereas you're talking about the background illumination (I think)
 
Last edited:
Johnytuono said:
"Now think about your light hitting the background. Take a situation with your subject is standing something like 6 feet from the background. The closer the light is placed to the subject the darker the background will become. Move the light away and the background will get lighter. Try it :D"

I tried this with a household spotlight and the opposite happened ie the nearer the light to the subject the lighter the shadow on the background........are we talking about the same thing?
JohnyT
Click to expand...
Try this one:

Phil V said:
...

So a 120cm softbox at 1m produces a softer light than a 60cm one really close in, even if the apparent size is similar, the shadow pattern will differ greatly due to the ISL.

...
Click to expand...
Or even easier, put someone close to a window using it as a 3/4 light, and look how much darker furthest side of their face is than if you move them further from the window. Even though you've lessened the size of the source, ISL means there's relatively less difference in the amount of light.
 
Johnytuono said:
"Now think about your light hitting the background. Take a situation with your subject is standing something like 6 feet from the background. The closer the light is placed to the subject the darker the background will become. Move the light away and the background will get lighter. Try it :D"

I tried this with a household spotlight and the opposite happened ie the nearer the light to the subject the lighter the shadow on the background........are we talking about the same thing?
JohnyT

EDIT Realised I'm talking about the subject shadow whereas you're talking about the background illumination (I think)
Click to expand...

In short, yes :)
 
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