Official Talk Leica thread

ndwgolf

ndwgolf

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Name
Neil Williams
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Guy's,
I recently switched from Nikon to Leica (still have the Nikon gear) and was hoping that Talk Photography had a dedicated Leica section seeing as there are a bunch of Leica users in the UK. Anyways I was told to start one so here we go;
1. If you want to talk Leica….. talk it
2. If you want to show off your gears here …..show it
3. If you want advise about anything Leica….. ask it
4. If you have any advice tips…..share it

I will start off by asking if anyone has yet had any experience yet with the Leica MM ???
 
Nope no experience with the Leica MM, I'm keeping my powder dry for the M10 if it delivers. The MM looks nice, but £6k+ for it when I have an M9 anyway isn't really worth it to me to shoot in black and white.

How are you finding using the M9 anyway?
 
Not sure I would expect a dedicated Leica section as you two seem to be the only owners :) (unless others are hiding in the shadows?)

Anyway, carry on...
 
We don't have dedicated sections for Canon, Nikon or any of the other major/popular brands, and I doubt if there will be any support for this. Previous threads suggest very little interest in Leica, and more negativity than anything else.

There's an active Leica forum at http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1038, and it's actually called 'Talk Leica'.

Personally, I'd like a good M3 and may well buy one at some point, but I'm fairly indifferent to Leica as a digital platform.
 
I’ll be keeping an eye on this thread as I’m interested in buying a Leica. Have not decided which model just yet as I’m waiting to see what happens at Photokina next month, rumours are we will see the M10 but no one knows the price. Looking at the price tags of the M9p and MM, the M10 won’t be cheap, although there are discounts available in the states for M9’s and M9P’s.
 
Well, the M9P is now officially the same price as the M9; is there something in that to be read with regards to the price of the M10?

I was at the Leica store, Mayfair, a few days ago asking about any hints on the M10; all they said was that the release dates for M9 and previous models were in September and gave me the head's-up on the new M9P price.

As for Leica users, there is a dedicated Leica User Forum that gets a lot of international participation, which I guess is where I'd be due to the low number of users at any one given country.
 
I had an M9 with a wonderful Zeiss 2/50 lens. I just wasn't using it enough so I sold it a few months ago to fund a new motorbike. I still really miss it as it was the most engaging camera I have ever used, and the image quality was astounding.

It did have niggles though, but they were largely outweighed by the delight of just using it.

I am keeping an eye on the M10 situation, if only to see what happens to used M9 prices...
 
The M10 will come in at a ridiculous price and you won't be able to get one until about early 2013. With the £5,400 50mm f/2 APO launching the M10 should be good and do the lenses justice for the money it'll command. Not a great fan of live view or too much electronic jiggerry-pokery so hopefully it is kept clean and simple. Add on electronic viewfinders etc are a big thumbs down from me.
 
Laudrup said:
Nope no experience with the Leica MM, I'm keeping my powder dry for the M10 if it delivers. The MM looks nice, but £6k+ for it when I have an M9 anyway isn't really worth it to me to shoot in black and white.

How are you finding using the M9 anyway?
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I love it but I am also really struggling with it coming from a D3s. So many times I take a shot and then realise I forgot to focus but I am hooked so as they say the more you practice the better you will get😃
 
Tobers said:
I had an M9 with a wonderful Zeiss 2/50 lens. I just wasn't using it enough so I sold it a few months ago to fund a new motorbike. I still really miss it as it was the most engaging camera I have ever used, and the image quality was astounding.

It did have niggles though, but they were largely outweighed by the delight of just using it.

I am keeping an eye on the M10 situation, if only to see what happens to used M9 prices...
Click to expand...

My D3s has been in the dry box since buying the leica👍
 
Wail said:
Well, the M9P is now officially the same price as the M9; is there something in that to be read with regards to the price of the M10?

I was at the Leica store, Mayfair, a few days ago asking about any hints on the M10; all they said was that the release dates for M9 and previous models were in September and gave me the head's-up on the new M9P price.

As for Leica users, there is a dedicated Leica User Forum that gets a lot of international participation, which I guess is where I'd be due to the low number of users at any one given country.
Click to expand...

I also use that forum but enjoy the banter on this forum as us Brits no how to take the p££😃😃😃😃🇬🇧
 
Rich mans jewelry as someone once said.
A D700/800 will do all you ever need. Reading some discussion has led me to believe that for some people, it's all about the label hanging round your neck.
Did Nikon ever do a Hermes edition I wonder?
Leicas QC seems questionable, and I'll not forgive them for abandoning the R system to concentrate on the rangefinder crowd. Perhaps Photokina will spring up a result, the only reason I'm hoping for that is in order to sell my reflex kit.
For me, they're all about snobbery and pose factor now, as a browse through the various writings will tell you, assuming you manage to stay awake long enough.
Oh for an Epson RD-2, still, Fuji are coming on in leaps and bounds.
 
ndwgolf said:
I love it but I am also really struggling with it coming from a D3s. So many times I take a shot and then realise I forgot to focus but I am hooked so as they say the more you practice the better you will get😃
Click to expand...

Please post some pics once you've got the hang of it :) I'd love an M-9 just for the fun of using the thing. I have an old Olympus 35 RC rangefinder and I'd love a digital version. Perhaps I'll find a cheap RD-1 one day and suck up the crop factor...:)
 
steveclem said:
Rich mans jewelry as someone once said.
A D700/800 will do all you ever need. Reading some discussion has led me to believe that for some people, it's all about the label hanging round your neck.
Did Nikon ever do a Hermes edition I wonder?
Leicas QC seems questionable, and I'll not forgive them for abandoning the R system to concentrate on the rangefinder crowd. Perhaps Photokina will spring up a result, the only reason I'm hoping for that is in order to sell my reflex kit.
For me, they're all about snobbery and pose factor now, as a browse through the various writings will tell you, assuming you manage to stay awake long enough.
Oh for an Epson RD-2, still, Fuji are coming on in leaps and bounds.
Click to expand...

I don't know how you can question Leica's quality control on one hand and then recommend a D800. Nikon are doing the equivalent of jamming their fingers in their ears and closing their eyes over it. Nikon made their FA Gold version too, so they aren't immune from 'limited editions'.

The R system was bankrupting Leica and it wasn't popular enough to continue with. Tough luck really, go use the lenses on a D700 though because that's all you need anyway.
 
I am getting M9 lust in increasing quantities at present. Will probably hold off at least until post Photokina as the second hand price should drop. It is already down to £3800 for a pristine one at a dealer!
 
steveclem said:
Rich mans jewelry as someone once said.
A D700/800 will do all you ever need. Reading some discussion has led me to believe that for some people, it's all about the label hanging round your neck.
Did Nikon ever do a Hermes edition I wonder?
Leicas QC seems questionable, and I'll not forgive them for abandoning the R system to concentrate on the rangefinder crowd. Perhaps Photokina will spring up a result, the only reason I'm hoping for that is in order to sell my reflex kit.
For me, they're all about snobbery and pose factor now, as a browse through the various writings will tell you, assuming you manage to stay awake long enough.
Oh for an Epson RD-2, still, Fuji are coming on in leaps and bounds.
Click to expand...
Sence a taste of jealousy in here:love:
 
manualfocus-g said:
Please post some pics once you've got the hang of it :) I'd love an M-9 just for the fun of using the thing. I have an old Olympus 35 RC rangefinder and I'd love a digital version. Perhaps I'll find a cheap RD-1 one day and suck up the crop factor...:)
Click to expand...
Just arrived home from the rig, will be out shooting as soon as the sun comes up, will post some pictures then:):):)
 
ndwgolf said:
Sence a taste of jealousy in here:love:
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Not sure it is jealousy, more a case of not seeing the worth in them and thinking people buy them for the wrong reasons.

Some people may buy Ferraris because they have great engines and handle superbly but most people buy them to pose. Doesn't make them bad cars or only for poseurs though but does mean people who are not poseurs get tarred with the same brush. Ah, for the narrow minded...
 
ernesto said:
Not sure it is jealousy, more a case of not seeing the worth in them and thinking people buy them for the wrong reasons.

Some people may buy Ferraris because they have great engines and handle superbly but most people buy them to pose. Doesn't make them bad cars or only for poseurs though but does mean people who are not poseurs get tarred with the same brush. Ah, for the narrow minded...
Click to expand...
+1
 
Jealous? No, I could buy one if I thought it was really worth it, but there are documented issues with QC which i would not expect from such a premium brand and also, Leica are seeking new users who like to have that red dot for it's status, bit like say, a Patek Phillipe or IWC watch,Mont Blanc pen etc. Not all, not even the majority but Leica appear to be looking to that sort of market.
As for Leica not selling enough R system cameras, I can't comment, but a range of cameras that appeal to reflex users is dropped in favour of the far lesser used rangefinder system is,to my eyes,odd. I detect a market of 'exclusivity' attached to such a device,sure,buy what you wish for,have fun and enjoy.
 
Leica QC is way beyond any competitors, it's handmade and hand checked, the competition can't compete with that. The R10 just wasn't achieving enough market penetration according to Stefan Daniel, the Leica Director of Product Management. Spending millions on an R10 for a dwindling user base isn't a wise use of resources. I did read that some of the R lenses cost more to make than they sold at which is obviously not a good business model.
 
ernesto said:
<snip>

Some people may buy Ferraris because they have great engines and handle superbly but most people buy them to pose. Doesn't make them bad cars or only for poseurs though but does mean people who are not poseurs get tarred with the same brush. Ah, for the narrow minded...
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with you one single bit; but the 'pose' reason exists also in the SLR (Nikon, Canon, etc.) range and every other for that matter.
 
I have started shooting My M9-P in manual but find it hard to get my index finger on my right hand to dial in shutter speed with the camera up at my face does anyone else have the same problem?
 
i have a Leica Digilux 2
i know some of the purists say its not a real Leica as it has a Panasonic branded equivalent but you can still send it back to base for a free sensor repacement if it goes wrong, even after all this time so its still treated like a Leica by Leica themselves :)

personally i love its classic rangefinder looks & despite it being a tad slow to operate (in comparison to D3 or D2XS :shrug: ) its still really nice to use with every control where it should be (y)


DSC_4965 by sh0wtime, on Flickr

it has got a bit of a cult following which is why even now you'll still have to pay over £500 for a nice boxed one on ebay!
there aren't many 8 year old 5mp cameras that retain that much value!
it renders lovely jpegs straight out of camera & the 29-90mm (equivalent) f/2-2.4 vario summicron is an amazing lens. some people say its one of the finest zoom lenses ever made!
if i had to pick on a negative the EVF is a bit small/low res/laggy but it does switch to B&W if you set the camera to B&W so thats quite a nice thing :)

there are plenty of sample images on flickr- Flickr: The Leica Digilux 2 Pool

plus there are some very good user sites also - leica.overgaard.dk - Thorsten Overgaard's Leica Sites - Leica Digilux 2 sample photos and tests (as well as Panasonic DMC-LC1) - Page 1 of 3

plus John Thawley has written many interesting articles about using one in his journal

The Leica Digilux 2 - Journal - Motorsports Photography by Motorsports Photographer, John Thawley :: American Le Mans, Grand Am,

plus more links to digilux related items here

Search - Motorsports Photography by Motorsports Photographer, John Thawley :: American Le Mans, Grand Am,

also a massive thread discussing the "look" of the Digilux2 images on the L-camera forum. some nice ones on this page plus more as you scroll back through the topic
Do Digilux 2 photos have distinctive look? - Seite 63 - Leica User Forum

Hooked on Digilux 2 - Leica User Forum

something else you might or might not like is the way it often gets mistaken for an expensive M series camera :naughty:
i've lost count of how many times friends have been in awe of it & asked to have a play or how many times experienced ( or certainly very keen judging by their gear) photographers have stopped in their tracks & done a double take to check it out :naughty:
it seems i'm not the only one who's had this...

My D2 keeps being mistaken for an M by photographers... - Leica User Forum

what else can you hang around your neck for £500 that makes you look more authentic :naughty: ( had to add this as a response to the only being owned by posers comments earlier :LOL: )

its definitely something i'm going to stick with as its completely silent in its use so its great for candids/street etc

took this one from across the table & she never even knew i'd taken it til we got back home :)


L1040134 by sh0wtime, on Flickr

i think it renders lovely grey tones (y)


Proline weekender D2 066 by sh0wtime, on Flickr
 
Laudrup said:
Leica QC is way beyond any competitors, it's handmade and hand checked, the competition can't compete with that.
Click to expand...

I have no experience of Leica or it's QC, but from a general manufacturing perspective, a complex handmade product is more likely to have problems than something manufactured by machine, due to the lack of repeatability inherent in manual operations. Theoretically, you could offset that by high levels of inspection and testing, plus the use of a higher grade of materials, and this may be the case with Leica, given the very high retail prices.
 
The Leica M equipment goes through stringent testing and about 80 cameras are made each day. Nikon produce about 25,000 D800s a month (or over 830 cameras a day) of just the D800 not other models. The Leica QC can be seen in this video:

http://gizmodo.com/5820193/youll-love-how-a-leica-is-made

You're talking £5,400 for a 50mm f/2 from Leica and about £100 for a 50mm f/1.8 from Nikon, that video shows you partly why.
 
Laudrup said:
The Leica M equipment goes through stringent testing and about 80 cameras are made each day. Nikon produce about 25,000 D800s a month (or over 830 cameras a day) of just the D800 not other models.
Click to expand...


All that says to me is that Nikon have more efficient processes (assuming that they don't just have ten times the staff working on D800s than Leica do on Ms)

I am not interested in paying money for inefficient processes
 
Laudrup said:
Leica QC is way beyond any competitors, it's handmade and hand checked, the competition can't compete with that. The R10 just wasn't achieving enough market penetration according to Stefan Daniel, the Leica Director of Product Management. Spending millions on an R10 for a dwindling user base isn't a wise use of resources. I did read that some of the R lenses cost more to make than they sold at which is obviously not a good business model.
Click to expand...

Not sure there is any evidence to support your hypothesis on QC.

My own experiences having been a Leica user for 50 years is that the Leica manufacturing quality is hardly any better than that of Nikon.

The Leica lens performance is normally excellent but there again, so is the performance of the majority of pro lenses for Nikon or Canon.

If the Leica M camera (digital or film version) suits your photography and enables you to take better pictures, then it is the best camera for you. If it doesn't, then is is a very expensive piece of jewellery.

For me, the Nikon D3x is my preferred camera with the r1c1 macro lighting kit which lets me get resolution and lighting which it would be very difficult to match with the Leica.
 
Off the top shelf M9-P 35mm f3.4 1/45 ISO 1000
athome230820120125.jpg

Please take my picture M9-P 35mm f6.7 1/45 ISO 400
athome230820120076.jpg
 
custodian said:
Not sure there is any evidence to support your hypothesis on QC.

My own experiences having been a Leica user for 50 years is that the Leica manufacturing quality is hardly any better than that of Nikon.

The Leica lens performance is normally excellent but there again, so is the performance of the majority of pro lenses for Nikon or Canon.

If the Leica M camera (digital or film version) suits your photography and enables you to take better pictures, then it is the best camera for you. If it doesn't, then is is a very expensive piece of jewellery.

For me, the Nikon D3x is my preferred camera with the r1c1 macro lighting kit which lets me get resolution and lighting which it would be very difficult to match with the Leica.
Click to expand...

Did you watch the video? Do you think the millions of Nikon lenses that are churned out go through the same rigorous process? The D800 has well documented AF problems right now, built by a machine doesn't mean perfect, but it can perfectly replicate a problem 1000 times over.

I've owned pro glass from Canon and Nikon, the build quality from Nikon has gone downhill with the advent of the plastic fantastic G lenses. My Nikon 135mm f/2 DC was better built and my Canon 300mm f/2.8 IS was even better built, still not up to the standards of the 50mm Summilux ASPH though. As for macro well no it isn't great at macro, but then again if I was into macro I'd just get a Canon MP-E 65 and blow away anything Nikon can offer.
 
On my last UK visit, which I've just returned from, I had with me my D3x and M9. My plan was to spend some time doing architectural photography around London, and bit of landscapes in Neath Valley and then a bit of street stuff in between. In the end, I didn't use the D3x once :thinking:

What does that say about the Leica, not a lot other than the pleasure of using it was immense and made me not want to take out the heavy guns (Nikon & PC-E lenses), not that I was able to get the same shots from the Leica (impossible), but I enjoyed the shooting experience with the "small" M9 & 35/2.

Now, on my next trip (September), I will make sure to use both better and not give in too much to the M9.
 
ernesto said:
All that says to me is that Nikon have more efficient processes (assuming that they don't just have ten times the staff working on D800s than Leica do on Ms)

I am not interested in paying money for inefficient processes
Click to expand...

They are highly corrected optics using exotic glass with sometimes long lead times and are hand built. Nikon make 5,000,000 lenses in 6 months, Leica can make 18,000 lenses in the same period. If people think they can get the quality control as stringent with 5,000,000 vs 18,000 then phone up Nikon and they'll pay you in yen by the million.
 
Laudrup said:
They are highly corrected optics using exotic glass with sometimes long lead times and are hand built. Nikon make 5,000,000 lenses in 6 months, Leica can make 18,000 lenses in the same period. If people think they can get the quality control as stringent with 5,000,000 vs 18,000 then phone up Nikon and they'll pay you in yen by the million.
Click to expand...

I was actually referring to your comment about the bodies.

It would be wrong to get bogged down in the difference between manufacturing numbers as that is irrelevant.
10 people in company A could make 100 lenses with the same quality control as 1 person in company B could make 10 lenses in the same time.
If company A improved it's manufacturing processes it could then make 200 lenses at the same quality in the same time and lower the price.

Are you comparing like products. Are the 5,000,000 lenses the best that Nikon make and do they cost the same as the 18,000 Leica lenses?
If Leica made a lens for £150 how good would it be compared to Nikon's £150 lens?
 
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ernesto said:
I was actually referring to your comment about the bodies.

It would be wrong to get bogged down in the difference between manufacturing numbers as that is irrelevant.
10 people in company A could make 100 lenses with the same quality control as 1 person in company B could make 10 lenses in the same time.
If company A improved it's manufacturing processes it could then make 200 lenses at the same quality in the same time and lower the price.

Are you comparing like products. Are the 5,000,000 lenses the best that Nikon make and do they cost the same as the 18,000 Leica lenses?
If Leica made a lens for £150 how good would it be compared to Nikon's £150 lens?
Click to expand...

They don't make lenses for £150, they aren't aiming at that end of the market. The Leica budget lenses start at £1,049. Go look at the way a Nikon supertele or Canon supertele is made and it is closer to the way Leica makes their lenses. It's partly why you're paying the money that you do.

As for the bodies it's comparing something hand built and hand checked to mass produced, it's not really comparable.
 
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