Old Nikon vs Old Canon, etc.

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colpepper

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Okay, this isn't a hoary old marque loyalty bunfight but an attempt to identify the problems a buyer might find when purchasing a used SLR. Fans of other manufacturers are welcome to join in with brickbats or bouquets.

Nikon: The light seals have perished on all the metal bodied Nikons I've had. Expect to replace them, easy and cheap with a kit from Interslice, but the gummy fallout before you do may have got into some odd places.

Plastic bodied AF Nikons are cheap and generally reliable as are the standard lenses and zooms but Nikon primes are expensive, pricey enough to be a risk buying unseen from auction sites. Plastic body catches are a weak point, some 90s Nikons have them, some don't. Repair isn't cost effective but bodies cheap enough to be disposable.
Shutters can fail on metal and plastic Nikons. FE ones come to my notice but AF Nikons aren't immune.

Canon: I'm a newcomer to Canon but I bought an A-1 with 'the cough'.(thanks for the lowdown Big Yin) a mirror pivot wear noise that gets progressively worse (and embarrassing) until the mechanism fails. The seller has refused to answer emails so I thought I'd do some homework. Of the A-series Canons I enquired about sellers have failed to reply or admitted there's a squeak. This leads me to think mirror wear is endemic on older A series Canons.
Lenses are good value, often supplied with a (failing?) body (perhaps to salve the conscience of the seller!). A definite case of caveat emptor.

This is a personal view, please add your own experiences.
 
Well I've been lucky with old cameras..I usually buy cheap so don't lose much on a few faulty ones which I strip down for screws etc before throwing away. As for one of my favourite makes i.e. Canon..... I was a complete idiot in the past as I've thrown away Ftb and beautiful mint black avi, for faults because you could replace them cheaply...the FTB needed CLA very stiff to wind on and the AVI exposure meter was two stops out which I couldn't correct by setting the asa.
There are only three Canons I've settled on using:- AV1, T70 and T90 and I'm not really interested in any other models as what these cameras can't do I can cover with other makes in my collection.
 
By putting vs in the thread title I've inadvertantly introduced an element of competition between makes. The intention was to compare and contrast failings and foilbles among different film cameras which are at least ten years old and may be decades more.

The technical advantages of cameras in their day may of secondary importance to the usability of a camera now, and we are I assume talking about working stuff, not collectors pieces. Apologies for possibly setting things off on the wrong track.
 
This might be a very interesting thread.

I am going to buy a AF SLR system, and have been trying to choose a make which has very high quality glass and easily available. The choices are Nikon, Canon, Minolta and Contax.

So any feedback about the quality of glass in AF range - especially on Contax N series will be very helpful too.
 
ujjwaldey8165 said:
So any feedback about the quality of glass in AF range
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I've found plastic bodied Nikon AF lenses to be very good performers, the equal of AI and AIS manual focus in normal use. However they lack something in character compared to MF lenses. When plastic/polycarbonate bodied lenses were introduced there were complaints about their expected longevity from pro's, countered by the manufacturers. I don't know which side won the argument but collector's cash is going into metal bodied versions.

Fungus can be a problem on MF lenses, I've yet to see any on AF lenses personally.
 
Well the only issue I have had is shutter squeak on a T90, but that was down to the machine not being used for a long time. Got i fixed and periodically I stick some batteries in it and fire the shutter.

Nikons have been fine, so far, apart from one bad buy on a lens, which was in the description, but I did not read it properly before bidding :bang:. But when I get it working it is a cracking lens.

The thing that always throws me with Canon A series is they are all Shutter Priority (bar the A1 and AE-Program :thinking:) which always throws me when I pick them up.

I think the reason the older Canon FD lens are cheaper, bar the 85mm f1.2 etc, is because you can't use them on there digital cameras without an adaptor. Where as the Nikon you can and with the price of the D700 being as it is, people are now buying all the older lens and so pushing the price up.

The same is also true of Minolta prime AF lens and Pentax ones.
 
colpepper said:
I've found plastic bodied Nikon AF lenses to be very good performers, the equal of AI and AIS manual focus in normal use. However they lack something in character compared to MF lenses.
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Thats the thing. The character of different lens.

The Zeiss lens - both the manual focus on the SLR and the AF on the G1 are absolutely superb, and there is something about the colour and sharpness that I really like.

It was the same with Summicron 50mm, both on SLR and Rangefinder - absolutely fantastic; but the Leica Zoom lens on the R was very different, and I didn't really like it.

I have never used the real top end Nikon or Minolta glasses - so does anybody have any opinion/view on how they compare with the zeiss glasses. I have looked on the net for some comparison, but haven't found any.

All I want is a 28-80 ( or thereabouts) fast lens and a 50mm prime. Not really into long zoom or ultra wide ones.
 
I have 3 old Nikon bodies and all of them were virtually as new so never had a problem really. In fact the F80 was boxed and had only seen 2 films being a pro togs 2nd spare body.
 
I have a room full of old cameras and lens. From fish eye to 55mm F1.2. Question, why did Canon change from the reliable lateral curtain shutter to the rubbish vertical shutter ? Got a couple of Zeiss m42 lens where you can read the inscription on a tombstone from 200 yards.
 
***I have never used the real top end Nikon or Minolta glasses - so does anybody have any opinion/view on how they compare with the zeiss glasses**

...a guy on another forum uses zeiss/contax lenses quite a lot and his shots are superb for 3d, as well as his skill.

e.g. http://forum.mflenses.com/more-dances-t29845.html
 
I went with Canon because a) i love the T90 and b) the primes are cheap due to reasons mentioned above (can't be used on EOS bodies). T90s are pretty robust machines but the downside is that when they break they're hard to fix due to the amount of tech in them. I intend to pick up a cheap mechanical body as a failsafe at some point.

I really wanted a manual focus system and was very tempted by some of the old Nikons but ultimately some of the benefit was lost due to the high resale value of the lenses.
 
To be honest the only Nikons I considered buying were the F3 and F2-AS.
The F5 was ruled out mostly because if I wanted to carry around a camera that size, I'll take the D3 instead.
The F4 was ruled out because I hated the smooth 'plasticky'-looking body.
The F2-AS was out because it's a dinosaur and way too expensive for what it offers (and I already have one).
That left the F3 - so I bought one.

After a couple of dramas, I eventually got a nice example that only required new seals fitting.

There's just too many tatty cameras out there now...FM2n's should be OK as well, but they don't suit me.
Canon - A-1 and F1 maybe, but only if I didn't already own lots of Nikon lenses.

My other option for a stand-alone camera would be an Olympus OM1n and a couple of MF Zuiko lenses.
 
bradleysmith said:
I intend to pick up a cheap mechanical body as a failsafe at some point.
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If you opt for an F-1 or its derivatives, expect to pay top dollar. The only Canon (IMHO) made to the standard of the pro Nikons but selling for more, like for like, presumably because there were fewer sold in the first place. Plenty of very clean F2 and F3's around, the equivalent F-1s all seem to be on dealer's shelves gathering zeros.
Payback for the bargain glass to go on them I s'pose. I've given up on the search for a squeak free A-series.
 
colpepper said:
If you opt for an F-1 or its derivatives, expect to pay top dollar. The only Canon (IMHO) made to the standard of the pro Nikons but selling for more, like for like, presumably because there were fewer sold in the first place.
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Except in the sports photography market, Canons were preferred apparently because their motordrives were faster. Canon actually released for the 1972 Olympics a 'high speed F-1 ' that using a non moving semi transparent pellicle mirror and special motor drive using 20 AA batteries, could take 10 frames per second!
Later they released a similar version of the 'New F-1' that could do 14 frames a second!
 
bradleysmith said:
That's what's holding me up. I don't think I want any of the A-series bodies. An original F1 would be nice though!
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Oh I don't know I have just had a mooch around the interwibble and found F1N AE bodies going for about the same prices as the Nikon F3HP and less than some of the F2 varients.

~note to self :razz: must resist I have to much kit already~
 
bradleysmith said:
That's what's holding me up. I don't think I want any of the A-series bodies. An original F1 would be nice though!
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I use a Canon EF which is quite a nice body, shutter priority or manual, self timer, mirror lockup, good flash sync speed (1/125) Feels like a brick! It can do 1/1000-1 /2 Second speeds without batteries too. And it has a voltage regulating circuit so it doesn't need any modifications to use modern batteries.
It cant take a motor drive though.

Wiki link
 
Knikki said:
The thing that always throws me with Canon A series is they are all Shutter Priority (bar the A1 and AE-Program :thinking:) which always throws me when I pick them up.
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/Pedant On

Not quite right Knikki, the Canon A series had a mix of metering modes:

AE-1 - Shutter Priority & manual
AT-1 - Manual only
A-1 - All modes
AV-1 - Aperture Priority & manual
AE-1P - Shutter Priority, Program & manual
AL-1 - Aperture Priority & manual (with focus assist)

/Pedant Off

;)
 
Thmaga said:
I use a Canon EF
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Very nice camera, rather thin on the ground though and expensive when you see them. The problem for film camera users, as opposed to collectors, is Canon didn't have a long lineage of lo-tech bodies like Nikon with their various Nikkormats, F, F2, F3, FM. FE and the like.

The EM was the only camera that existing in a sector where Canon had a whole line of A derivatives. The F-1s nearly all have a story when you look closer (at least the ones I've seen) and not a happy one. The ones that don't are in suspended animation like Woody's Round Up characters with prices to match - no good for us users.

I'm looking for a pair of solid, cosmetically tatty, working, hand-wind Canon bodies that don't cost an arm and a leg to hang some nice lenses from but they're not easy to find.
 
pauljs said:
/Pedant On

Not quite right Knikki, the Canon A series had a mix of metering modes:

AE-1 - Shutter Priority & manual
AT-1 - Manual only
A-1 - All modes
AV-1 - Aperture Priority & manual
AE-1P - Shutter Priority, Program & manual
AL-1 - Aperture Priority & manual (with focus assist)

/Pedant Off

;)
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Well I got 1 1/2 right :razz: :LOL::LOL:
 
Shutter squeal is a known problem with many older Canon A1s although I have one with no sign of it at all.

One of the nice things about the Canon EOS3 is that there are no foam seals to replace in the camera back - the light trapping is achieved in the fit between the back and the body.

Older blads have the advantage too that the only light seal is around the dark slide slot and it's easily user-replaceable.
 
colpepper said:
I'm looking for a pair of solid, cosmetically tatty, working, hand-wind Canon bodies that don't cost an arm and a leg to hang some nice lenses from but they're not easy to find.
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well - i had a vgc Canon A1 and 4 mint FD lenses from 28mm up - on the "Sale" forum for weeks and I only got one low offer ............better than the example you posted..

so I dont know what people expect.....:shrug:
want quality .. only prepared to pay "cheap"...?
 
colpepper said:
I'm looking for a pair of solid, cosmetically tatty, working, hand-wind Canon bodies that don't cost an arm and a leg to hang some nice lenses from but they're not easy to find.
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True they are not that common! I picked mine up for 50, which I'm quite happy with considering it only had some minor brassing.
I can see your dilemma, I could do with another body to have one for B+W and one for colour, I dont think I could lug around two EF's
I was talking to TheBigYin about this a few weeks back, Idealy an A series would be an ideal second body for me, providing its not got the cough, the AE1 for example is a few hundred grams lighter than the EF, Im not sure of its robustness though.

For you though I'm not sure, unless you can find a pair of EF's or Good condition A series bodies at a bargain price.
 
Yardbent said:
well - i had a vgc Canon A1 and 4 mint FD lenses from 28mm up - on the "Sale" forum for weeks and I only got one low offer ............better than the example you posted..

so I dont know what people expect.....:shrug:
want quality .. only prepared to pay "cheap"...?
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Totally agree, I had ridiculously silly offers the last time I tried to sell my mint A1 outfit. I really can't understand why people buy ridiculously cheap kit which is pretty well guaranteed to have problems. :shrug:
 
Yardbent said:
well - i had a vgc Canon A1 and 4 mint FD lenses from 28mm up - on the "Sale" forum for weeks and I only got one low offer ............better than the example you posted..

so I dont know what people expect.....:shrug:
want quality .. only prepared to pay "cheap"...?
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Maybe buyers are starting to realise the UK and the world has problems..........
 
Of the last six ebay sellers I spoke to asking whether their A1 had a squeaky mirror a total of 0 (zero) replied. Commercial sellers are now advertising the fact their A1 doesn't have a squeak! That suggests there's a big problem and reading further, it effects many of the A-series.

It's a shame because although I was never a fan of the A1 in its day - I could never see why you needed to twiddle a little aperture wheel when there's a perfectly good ring on the lens - it does represent the last great flowering of analogue, thumb wind, dial proliferation before everything went on screen with the T's. Mirror bearing apart, they're also very well built and there are loads about.
 
colpepper said:
it does represent the last great flowering of analogue, thumb wind, dial proliferation before everything went on screen with the T's. Mirror bearing apart, they're also very well built and there are loads about.
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Hell no - check out a Dynax 7! Got knobs, dials, wheels *and* screens! Tecnically, it's got two screens actually, the only camera I can take out and get away without being asked "Why you still using film then?"
 
***Of the last six eBay sellers I spoke to asking whether their A1 had a squeaky mirror a total of 0 (zero) replied. Commercial sellers are now advertising the fact their A1 doesn't have a squeak! That suggests there's a big problem and reading further, it effects many of the A-series.***

Well you only know if you have a problem if you compare the camera with a CLA'd one. There are examples on youtube and some have coughs....anyway listening to a serviced A series camera, I think my aV1 seems a bit noisy, but it takes exc exposed shots so I'm not worried.
 
I haven't put a film through my A-1 but I'm fairly sure if I did I'd get a picture of at least half a mirror. It was advertised as in excellent condition! It sounds like a donkey with laryngitis!
The Dynax 7 passed me by so I shall do my homework. On the Minolta topic I always fancied one of these. Thought it might go for a little more so didn't bother watching. Oh well.
 
colpepper said:
Commercial sellers are now advertising the fact their A1 doesn't have a squeak! That suggests there's a big problem and reading further, it effects many of the A-series.
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Problem is, they're buying up the squeaky ones, adding one drop of oil, and selling them on for a Mahooosive profit.

I'm lucky (so far, and touch wood) but the one I picked up has no sign of the coughing - though in fairness, according to the bloke who swapped it for a couple of framed prints, It was bought new by his dad, taken on 2 world cruises, shot maybe 15 films in all, and was carefully wrapped and put away in the original boxes when his dad had a stroke and couldn't use it anymore. I only wish he'd used a better tripod, the one time he did, as theres a lovely circular gouge in the baseplate. Only other problem it had was a little dust in the shutter which caused occasional dry-fires when winding on. That was cured with a half second spray of contact cleaner.

As far as my other Canon - the EOS-3, it's pretty much immaculate - came (courtesy of a very nice chap on here) boxed, complete with all the paperwork, manuals etc. (right down to the unused set of custom function stickers), and didn't honestly look as if it'd been in the same room as a film. It's a wonderful thing - if you like a film camera that handles like a modern AF digital slr, uses modern AF lenses, has better metering and AF performance than my Digital camera, but records on film not a chip. I may be out of step with quite a few people in this section, but there are times when I DO like this. For when I want manual wind-on, there's the A-1, for manual everything, I'll take the FED3 or the Voigtlander Perkeo. And if I just want to sit back and count the elephants, there's always the Pinholga :LOL:
 
TheBigYin said:
I may be out of step with quite a few people in this section, but there are times when I DO like this.
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Sometimes, I like using my AF Nikons if there are sufficient people in an environment not to be distracted by it. The thing is I mostly do people photography (street but rarely in streets if that makes sense) and if they miss the bzz..bzz of an AF lens, they certainly won't miss the bazz-urrrgh of the auto wind on.

By comparison a bit of mirror slap rarely ruffles any feathers. I can pre-focus, click the shutter and be onto the next subject before anyone notices and wind on at my leisure.
 
Worst thing to do when doing Street I found is to click then lower the camera. I tend to click and keep the camera up to my eye as the target walks past... that way they think I'm just waiting for them to get out of the way :D


colpepper said:
The Dynax 7 passed me by so I shall do my homework. On the Minolta topic I always fancied one of these. Thought it might go for a little more so didn't bother watching. Oh well.
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Much as I like Minolta, the Exacta RTL would be a better bet I think.
 
colpepper said:
It's a shame because although I was never a fan of the A1 in its day - I could never see why you needed to twiddle a little aperture wheel when there's a perfectly good ring on the lens - it does represent the last great flowering of analogue, thumb wind, dial proliferation before everything went on screen with the T's. Mirror bearing apart, they're also very well built and there are loads about.
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Curiously, I think the A1 was the camera which really made Canon a rival for Nikon as far as professional users were concerned. I say 'curiously', because the A1 was never really aimed at pro users, and whilst well built, it's not up to the standard of the F1 of the same period, which was Canon's flagship pro model and built like a tank.

Pro users though were quick to realise the multi mode potential of the A1 and adopted it in their hordes, often using them alongsude their Nikon F2s and F3s. Victor Blackman was a press photographer who used to write in AP each week describing his experiences with the A1 which he loved using despite having a load of high end Nikon gear.

Strange that it was the multi modes which actually attracted the pros, yet some people are often scornful of them today, advocating just manual mode. ;)

The A1 went on to become the official camera of the 1982? Olympic Games - some achievemnet for a camera never aimed at the pro market!

I do agree about that little aperture wheel being a bit quirky.
 
CT said:
Strange that it was the multi modes which actually attracted the pros, yet some people are often scornful of them today, advocating just manual mode. ;)
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Think of it as crankiness with a purpose!
 
1984 - I should have known really - I have the same lens cap. :D
 
CT said:
Curiously, I think the A1 was the camera which really made Canon a rival for Nikon as far as professional users were concerned. I say 'curiously', because the A1 was never really aimed at pro users, and whilst well built, it's not up to the standard of the F1 of the same period, which was Canon's flagship pro model and built like a tank.

Pro users though were quick to realise the multi mode potential of the A1 and adopted it in their hordes, often using them alongsude their Nikon F2s and F3s. Victor Blackman was a press photographer who used to write in AP each week describing his experiences with the A1 which he loved using despite having a load of high end Nikon gear.

Strange that it was the multi modes which actually attracted the pros, yet some people are often scornful of them today, advocating just manual mode...
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I remember those articles...Vic Blackman, Don Morley, where are they now.
I was most annoyed when Morley's column was axed from 'Camera' magazine with barely any explanation, as it was the best thing about that mag...
 
Victor died suddenly of a heart attack in 1988.

As far as I can see Don is still with us - he must be a ripe old age as he started photographing the TT bike races in 1953
 
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