Olympus E-M1 mkii - Should I be more impressed?

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Anton
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#1
So over the festive period I treated myself to an E-M1 mkii to replace my E-M10 mkii. I've had a great relationship with the M10 and its size has meant I've been able to take it out shooting a lot more than my previous D7000. Due to work and other things going on I've only just managed to get out with it over the weekend and took some rough & ready photos along side my iPhone X just for comparison. Now I'm far from an expert and would consider myself a fully average amateur but from initial comparison of the photos I'm not overly blown away by the IQ alone. The camera was mated to a 12-40 2.8 pro lens and all images were just imported to lightroom and cropped with no other changes. Taking everything else out of the equation this is just to compare a simple point and shoot scenario at probably not so ideal aperture for the scene but nevertheless a setting that should be fully capable of high IQ:

Screenshot 2019-02-03 at 21.44.21
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr

Screenshot 2019-02-03 at 21.44.45
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr

Screenshot 2019-02-03 at 21.45.04
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr

Screenshot 2019-02-03 at 21.46.26
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr

Screenshot 2019-02-03 at 21.48.05
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr

Screenshot 2019-02-03 at 21.50.17
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr

Screenshot 2019-02-03 at 21.50.42
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr

Screenshot 2019-02-03 at 21.51.20
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr

Please tell me I'm being an idiot and doing something wrong, thinking illogically or anything else that would take my current preference of overall image quality in favor of my iPhone in these particular scenes! I would say the iPhone images are sharper and better exposed (camera was set to full scene metering). Any feedback welcome!

Cheers
 
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Rich
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#2
They do look very poor, for a start have you tried a different lens?
 
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David
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#3
You are not comparing like for like

The iPhone X sensor is likely to be a 1/3in sensor and the Olympus a MFT sensor. There is an equivalent DOF calculation.

The iphone X wide angle lens is 4mm focal length, focusing on a target 10 meters away, gives you a DOF from 1.67 to infinity, therefore most things will be in focus.

If you set your Olympus to 28mm F2.8 and focus at 10m you DOF is 6.37m to 23.25m - to get equivalent DOF to the iPhone X woulod require use of F22

So a lot depends on your relationship with your subject and most importantly where the point of focus is.

https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/dof-calculator.htm use 1/3in compact for iPhoneX
 
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Antontdi
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Anton
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#5
Yes I only thought about it more logically after I got home - like I said it was just a quick comparison and given the pro lens I assumed 2.8 would still be sharp. Still, given the aperture, anything above 4m should have been in focus on the landscape shot and it is a possible setting to use if your struggling with low light shooting landscape at long distance.

I have the kit 14-42 & panny 17 1.7 I can try to compare tonight but it may have to be some indoor shots. oh and thanks for posting the website that's a handy one to look up in the future(y)!
 
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#6
The other thing to say is that the iPhone pics are oversharpened and details smeared.

Not saying the Oly ones are fantastic but I would want to rule out user error befor comparing (e.g. which shoot at f/2.8).
 
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#7
f2.8 is wide open and although many if not all MFT lenses perform very well wide open I still wouldn't expect them to be at their absolute best and if going for front to back and across the frame into the very corners sharpness I'd stop down a bit, maybe to f4 and if I was going to pixel peep maybe a little more.

I have the similar Panasonic 12-35mm f2.8 and find performance at f4 to be ok across the frame and into the corners. I'd expect the Olympus lens to be at least as good.
 
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#8
I bought an Olympus 12-40 f2.8 last week and would have been very disappointed if it was like that wide open (It isn't)
Despite all the various theories it still looks a bit rotten to me, further testing required.

If the lens was ok on the previous camera it points more to the new camera.
I would first of all do a factory reset so you start with no settings altered either on purpose or not
 
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Keith
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#9
I have the 12-40, it's a little cracker tbh - I opted for that over the Pany 12-35 because it's known to be sharper, even though I shoot Panasonic. My instinct tells me this is all user error/technique, the shots are blurry on the Oly - which is weird as the shutter speeds are not slow - people manage to get 5 second pin sharp exposures with the same combination - do you have shakey hands? The phone images look a little over sharpened especially on the kid's coat. We can see the much shallower DOF also, most obvious on the steering wheel shot - check out the keys in the background - and you're selecting more OOF sections from the backdrop of the images, the Oly images are naturally going to be more OOF at 2.8. As other said, not like for like in terms of DOF - not even close.

I also imagine you'll find very similar results if you put the X vs any APSC camera without IBIS, as I do think this is technique here
 
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Maarten
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#10
The Olympus 12-40 f/2.8 is the sharpest "normal" zoom I've ever used so I agree with people above that your results are disappointing. The Olympus should easily outperform any current camera phone.

- Can you check that your E-M1II is set to SAF and not CAF or MF?
- Can you check that the manual focus ring on the 12 40 hasn't been "engaged" as this would override autofocus and put the camera in MF mode?
- If the above are not the problem I would photograph the same scene with the 12 40 on the E-M1II and the E-M10II (if you still have it) and compare the result. If you get disappointing results on both cameras the problem is likely to be the lens. If you only get disappointing results on the E-M1II and the E-M10II is fine it's likely to be an issue with the E-M1II body (although the most likely reason will still be user error).

E-M1II + 12-40 shot at 12mm f/2.8 - it's pretty much sharp across the frame:

20181202_093312_018
by Maarten D'Haese, on Flickr
 
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Antontdi
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Anton
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#11
Thanks for your feedback everyone! I know this looks like user error but I've never really seen this before on my EM10. Lens & camera were definitely set to SAF, my hands don't shake (even though this camera is meant to have class leading IBS), all other settings straight from factory so it’s literally turn on point and shoot. So I’ve managed to get a couple more tests in from what daylight I had left after work. Being in a rush I forgot to lock the ISO on the outdoor shots so once again I can only compare F2.8 as anything more stopped down had increased noise. But gives a good idea nevertheless:


12-40 @ 14mm 2.8 on M1ii & M10ii both on tripods & 2sec timer:

Screenshot 2019-02-04 at 19.33.08
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr

Screenshot 2019-02-04 at 19.33.39
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr

Screenshot 2019-02-04 at 19.34.31
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr


12-40 @ 20mm 2.8 vs Panny 20mm 1.7 @ 2.8 on M1ii both on tripods & 2sec timer:

Screenshot 2019-02-04 at 19.38.37
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr

Screenshot 2019-02-04 at 19.39.30
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr

Screenshot 2019-02-04 at 19.40.26
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr
 
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Antontdi
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Anton
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#12
I also took a few shots indoor last night where I locked the ISO and also tried hand held to see if I could replicate the blur I experienced. I wasn’t able to get the same issue however the results were not any sharper than what I get on the M10. I would even go as far as saying the M10 seems to have ever so slightly less noise at ISO1600 on the hand held shot.


12-40 @ 14mm F5.6 on M1ii & M10ii both on tripods & 2sec timer:

Screenshot 2019-02-05 at 18.02.05
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr


Screenshot 2019-02-05 at 18.03.30
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr


Screenshot 2019-02-05 at 18.02.41
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr


Screenshot 2019-02-05 at 18.03.06
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr


Hand held @ 1/50

Screenshot 2019-02-05 at 18.05.22
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr


Overall I’m surprised how comparable the camera is to my M10 in terms of simply IQ. I know it has a ton of other features but even the IBIS doesn’t seem to help ‘me’ get any better result than its little brother. Im not sure if I will be keeping the camera but I hope the posted images are useful for anyone considering moving up to the M1 from the lower models.

Cheers
 
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#13
Just a quick bit of advice before the jokes start coming, you might want to change it to IBIS
Or maybe Irritable Bowel Syndrome is causing problems for the camera
 
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Keith
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#14
I misread initially, thought you were trying to say your iphone was better, but try using it at higher ISO and you'll soon see a huge difference. You're right though, your m10 images looks cleaner and more vibrant than your m1 mkII images, but these are SOOC Jpeg right? I only ever shoot RAW so can't help you there, maybe your settings are different from one to the other? the WB is certainly very different - one of the main reasons I only ever shoot RAW, WB can be a right bitch to get bang on shooting Jpeg - that and the extra control you have in general in PP - if you're going to process either way, there's no reason not to shoot RAW.

The IBIS on the m1II 'should' be much better, by all accounts online it is, unless you got a duff copy I don't know what to tell you
 
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Ned
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#15
In my experience of many of 16mp Olympus sensors (EM10, EM5ii, EPM2, EM1) and the sensor in the EM1ii is that image quality is basically the same, even at high ISO (except the EM1 stands out as having the lease pleasant noise and lots of noise on long exposures).

This was always the nice thing about m43, you chose your camera on features, not “OMg this new sensor is 4 mor MP and a bazillion times better so you must buy it”. Image quality was always the given.
 
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Antontdi
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Anton
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#16
Just a quick bit of advice before the jokes start coming, you might want to change it to IBIS
Or maybe Irritable Bowel Syndrome is causing problems for the camera
Haha promptly changed:ty:

The photos are shot RAW and imported in to LR for comparion with no adjustemnts other than what LR applies automatically.

Nawty, I guess you're right - I was hoping for just slightly better - maybe even just less noise at higher ISO but I never push past 1600 anyway in reality.
 
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#17
Haha promptly changed:ty:

The photos are shot RAW and imported in to LR for comparion with no adjustemnts other than what LR applies automatically.

Nawty, I guess you're right - I was hoping for just slightly better - maybe even just less noise at higher ISO but I never push past 1600 anyway in reality.
The only ‘significant’ improvement is if you shoot landscapes at ISO64 (being careful with the highlights) as this brings the background noise lower (at the cost of highlight headroom). But even then, if you don’t pixel peep there isn’t much in it and that’s the case with virtually all modern cameras, they’re all good enough.
 
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#18
I would expect the EM1-II images to be better than that tbh, I'm wondering if you're getting shutter shock? Try shooting with electronic first curtain (shooting mode with a diamond symbol) or even silent shooting if shooting static subjects (shooting mode with a heart symbol). I had to send my first EM5-II back due to extreme shutter shock.
 
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#19
FWIW I had a similar sense of meh when I replaced my E-M10 with a used E-M10ii - in my case it was primarily I'd bought a used body and hadn't done a full factory reset and set it up again before I went out. Things like having the Auto ISO settings able to choose massive numbers meant I'd got a load of weird results that I hadn't had with my E-M10. All user error because I'd forgotten what I'd done to make the camera work how I wanted.

I suspect that Lightroom is picking up your built in camera settings for "Natural" on the E-M10ii or you've set "Keep warm colours" ON.

This is quite old but still has some value in setting up OM-D cameras, not sure if it applies to the E-M1ii
https://robinwong.blogspot.com/2015/07/the-robin-wongs-om-d-camera-cheat-sheet.html

Looking at your indoor shots where everything is the same then it's clear to me that the E-M10ii is sharper which seems wrong to me.
I think there's something wrong with your new E-M1ii, perhaps just set up but it could be the body.
If it were mine I'd be taking those test shots on a laptop/tablet and both cameras back to where you got the E-M1ii to have a chat about it.
 
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#20
Went out for a wander over the RSPB reserve at the back of my place this morning
Beautiful weather, like a spring day after all the recent cold rubbish
I digress, took my E-M1 and 12-40, this is at f2.8 with nothing done apart from resizing and compressing to a very small file of 250kb
P2060002 1.jpg
 
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#21
Should add that the sensor in the E-M1 ii is I believe the same as in the Panasonic 20mp cameras.
Would expect much better than you are getting from my GX9, personally thought it was quite an improvement over the 16mp sensor.
Suppose its possible to get a duff camera, the way the sensors float in these bodies I can see how it might happen.

I wouldn't keep it if I were you, you will never be happy and probably try to find issues real or imagined.
My daughter had the same problem with a Fuji body, looked ok to me, but she had no confidence in it
 
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#22
Should add that the sensor in the E-M1 ii is I believe the same as in the Panasonic 20mp cameras.
Would expect much better than you are getting from my GX9, personally thought it was quite an improvement over the 16mp sensor.
Suppose its possible to get a duff camera, the way the sensors float in these bodies I can see how it might happen.

I wouldn't keep it if I were you, you will never be happy and probably try to find issues real or imagined.
My daughter had the same problem with a Fuji body, looked ok to me, but she had no confidence in it
I'd be surprised if a sensor would cause soft and blurred images tbh, but it might be linked to the IBIS as you suggested. My money's still on shutter shock though ;)
 
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Rich
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#23
I'd be surprised if a sensor would cause soft and blurred images tbh, but it might be linked to the IBIS as you suggested. My money's still on shutter shock though ;)
One thought I had was maybe the mount on the camera is misaligned?
Clutching at straws here, could well be shutter shock, I had an E-M1 a while back that was an absolute pig for it.
This one is fine with the anti shock setting enabled and using a focus setting with the diamond
 
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#24
One thought I had was maybe the mount on the camera is misaligned?
Clutching at straws here, could well be shutter shock, I had an E-M1 a while back that was an absolute pig for it.
This one is fine with the anti shock setting enabled and using a focus setting with the diamond
To be fair it could be a host of things, it's all guess work at the mo ;)
 
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Jeff
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#26
the kitchen shots show a huge difference in w.b as Keith pointed out .. this alone is enough to cause problems .. in reality I would say that the same problem is rearing its head in the i.phone v camera shots . so looking at it logically I would think there's a huge amount of user/settings error in this ... how long have you had the camera .. have you read the manual .. etc etc
 
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Maarten
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#29
I also took a few shots indoor last night where I locked the ISO and also tried hand held to see if I could replicate the blur I experienced. I wasn’t able to get the same issue however the results were not any sharper than what I get on the M10. I would even go as far as saying the M10 seems to have ever so slightly less noise at ISO1600 on the hand held shot.

Overall I’m surprised how comparable the camera is to my M10 in terms of simply IQ. I know it has a ton of other features but even the IBIS doesn’t seem to help ‘me’ get any better result than its little brother. Im not sure if I will be keeping the camera but I hope the posted images are useful for anyone considering moving up to the M1 from the lower models.

Cheers
IBIS would not help when you've put the camera on a tripod. In general you should not expect sharper results on the E-M1II versus the E-M10II with the same lens. The E-M1II is superior in lots of other ways (more resolution, better high ISO, better SAF, better CAF, etc,) but in terms of sharpness you should expect similar results between the E-M1II and the E-M10II.

Looking at your additional shots in the kitchen they appear to be similar in terms of IQ although less than what I would expect from this lens. That makes me think that if there is an issue with your equipment, it is more likely to be the lens rather than the E-M1II body. Did you buy the lens at the same time as the body? You are not using any screw-in filters on it by any chance? If so remove the filter and try again.

Also, you don't make it clear what was your focus point in any of these shots? Whatever you focused on should be very sharp at ISO 200. Anything in front or behind the focus point could be less sharp. For that reason comparing the 12 40 f/2.8 against the Lumix 20 f/1.7 is difficult because you've shot at different and high ISO's and the areas you're focusing in on might not be the ones where the focus point was; your DoF at 2.8 is not going to render the entire scene sharp. Having said that the tree fragment looks sharper on the Lumix 20 1.7 compared to the 12-40 f/2.8 assuming the focus was in the same place in both shots and there was no wind. Again this would point to a problem with the lens rather than the body.

If you're going to make a return, make sure you return the lens as well as the body (assuming the lens came with the body). If that's not possible, you could contact Olympus support if the lens is still under warranty and have them check it over. Something isn't quite right because what I always admired about all my Olympus kit was how *easy* it was to get excellent results without superior handholding technique, high shutter speeds, tripods, etc. etc. in short all the techniques needed to get the best IQ from my Canon kit.

The E-M1II and the 12-40 f/2.8 should be a superior combo making it easy to get excellent results so if you keep struggling I would exchange it or get it serviced by Olympus if I were you.
 
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#30
Looking at your additional shots in the kitchen they appear to be similar in terms of IQ although less than what I would expect from this lens. That makes me think that if there is an issue with your equipment, it is more likely to be the lens rather than the E-M1II body. Did you buy the lens at the same time as the body? You are not using any screw-in filters on it by any chance? If so remove the filter and try again.

.
I disagree with this tbh. If you look at the crops in post #11 the text on the seeded loaf bag can be read on the EM10 but barely legible on the EM1, showing distinct signs of blur (which makes me think shutter shock). The same, but to a much lesser extent, with the Starbucks mug and mac computer, and fairy bottle.

Since you mentioned IBIS using a tripod it could be this too, they always recommend turning IS off when using a tripod (although I never do) and it could be a case that the EM1-II doesn't like IBIS on with a tripod.
 
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Keith
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#31
Since you mentioned IBIS using a tripod it could be this too, they always recommend turning IS off when using a tripod (although I never do) and it could be a case that the EM1-II doesn't like IBIS on with a tripod.
This and use the timer and electronic shutter to completely rule out any issues with SS, IBIS or hand-holding technique. Best performed in natural light, do some in the garden - use the same lens on both cameras too. Shoot RAW and apply the exact same settings and any adjustments to both.
 
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Antontdi
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Anton
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#33
Should add that the sensor in the E-M1 ii is I believe the same as in the Panasonic 20mp cameras.
Would expect much better than you are getting from my GX9, personally thought it was quite an improvement over the 16mp sensor.
Suppose its possible to get a duff camera, the way the sensors float in these bodies I can see how it might happen.

I wouldn't keep it if I were you, you will never be happy and probably try to find issues real or imagined.
My daughter had the same problem with a Fuji body, looked ok to me, but she had no confidence in it
Yes thats exactly my problem I seem to be able to get some good images out of it but in the back of my mind I'm worried that certain ones will not be sharp when I get back to uploading them like posted above. I've also picked up on another images I took (below) - this was definitely focused on the wall but not any part of it has come out well:

Screenshot 2019-02-09 at 09.28.18
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr

I would do some more tests but the camera has now been sent back, I already had it nearly a month so was lucky it got accepted for return. I showed the same above images so I think it helped justify the return. For reference, the lens was already mine - I have used it with my M10 over a year or so and never really saw any issue so like a lot of comments above I do genuinely think theres an issue with the camera.

Oh and here's a couple I have taken with the M10ii and the above lens this year so I know its capable of being sharp even at 2.8 hand help (with my settings:wacky:)

E-M10ii + 12-40 Pro f/2.8

M10ii 12-40 2.8 F2.8
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr

M10ii 12-40 2.8 F8 ISO2500
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr

M10ii 12-40 2.8 F8
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr

E-M10ii + 12-40 Pro f/5.6

M10ii 12-40 2.8 F5.6
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr
 
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#34
Yes thats exactly my problem I seem to be able to get some good images out of it but in the back of my mind I'm worried that certain ones will not be sharp when I get back to uploading them like posted above. I've also picked up on another images I took (below) - this was definitely focused on the wall but not any part of it has come out well:

Screenshot 2019-02-09 at 09.28.18
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr

I would do some more tests but the camera has now been sent back, I already had it nearly a month so was lucky it got accepted for return. I showed the same above images so I think it helped justify the return. For reference, the lens was already mine - I have used it with my M10 over a year or so and never really saw any issue so like a lot of comments above I do genuinely think theres an issue with the camera.

Oh and here's a couple I have taken with the M10ii and the above lens this year so I know its capable of being sharp even at 2.8 hand help (with my settings:wacky:)

E-M10ii + 12-40 Pro f/2.8

M10ii 12-40 2.8 F2.8
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr

M10ii 12-40 2.8 F8 ISO2500
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr

M10ii 12-40 2.8 F8
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr

E-M10ii + 12-40 Pro f/5.6

M10ii 12-40 2.8 F5.6
by Anton Tsarev, on Flickr
I think the fact that some images were good and some bad would reinforce my suggestion that it’s shutter shock, but I guess we’ll never know now ;) Are you getting a replacement or just keeping the EM10?
 
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Antontdi
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Anton
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#35
So how does shutter shock occur if the camera has one of the best IBIS systems? Is the shock not compensated or happens post stabilisation? I've read previously about it but assumed it was a problem on early technology and has been ironed out by now.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do - I wanted a new camera to take on a 3 week trip to Malaysia starting tomorrow but since the M1 fell through I've not been able to sort out a known good replacement. I've been lucky and got hold of an A7r from a friend for the trip so I'll see how I get on with FF. It's something I've been thinking about but is a big commitment to change so this will give me a good opportunity to try it out.
 
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#36
So how does shutter shock occur if the camera has one of the best IBIS systems? Is the shock not compensated or happens post stabilisation? I've read previously about it but assumed it was a problem on early technology and has been ironed out by now.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do - I wanted a new camera to take on a 3 week trip to Malaysia starting tomorrow but since the M1 fell through I've not been able to sort out a known good replacement. I've been lucky and got hold of an A7r from a friend for the trip so I'll see how I get on with FF. It's something I've been thinking about but is a big commitment to change so this will give me a good opportunity to try it out.
Shutter shock is pretty much as the name suggests, it’s ‘shock’ caused by the opening and closing of the shutter causing vibration and therefore slightly blurry images. IBIS does not control or have anything to do with shutter shock.

The A7r is a great camera in terms of image quality. I almost swapped from Nikon to Sony and was going to buy the A7riii. There’s no denying the image quality, but it didn’t suit me ergonomically. I bought the D850 instead and kept the Olympus for travel.
 
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Keith
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#37
Shutter shock is pretty much as the name suggests, it’s ‘shock’ caused by the opening and closing of the shutter causing vibration and therefore slightly blurry images. IBIS does not control or have anything to do with shutter shock.

The A7r is a great camera in terms of image quality. I almost swapped from Nikon to Sony and was going to buy the A7riii. There’s no denying the image quality, but it didn’t suit me ergonomically. I bought the D850 instead and kept the Olympus for travel.
First world problems when a D850 will have to do :D - just kidding, I think if I had stuck with FF and when I still actually had some money I'd have upgraded to the 850 too, it's probably the only dslr I would love to own, proper beast
 
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Graham
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#39
Definitely, send it back would be my recommendation.
Have to say I wouldn't be that happy with what I've seen for best part of a grand or more
Was thinking this also. Unless it's a faulty lens I reckon you can get far better and for less money (if used). The Sony CSC range would be a good place to look if portability is important.
 
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Keith
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#40
The lens is clearly fine, as he's showed sharp examples on the em 10 mkII, don't see the need to go jumping to another system for any reason here. It was clearly a dodgy copy of the em1 mkII OP got, it's been sorted thankfully, but seems absolutely nothing wrong with the em10 or lens he owns.
 
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