One from Todays Shoot....
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One from todays kids shoot. Took the two free prints and ran! Frustrating! :bang:
Rough processing just for post shoot viewing.
I have done free shoot and 1 print before, not 2. When I started I would do that and the worst I had was I think a £50 sale.
Lovely image, would be tempted to crop a little more though.
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(Stevie & I worked together on this one)
Its slightly edited, a quick dodge in photoshop which shows up a tad more due flickr. Its not far off straight out of camera with some curve adjustments and the dodge and looks nice on the calibrated monitor.
This wasn't one they picked, sometimes I just don't understand parents.
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Yeah, this is the worst result ive had to date but I think it was very much a case of me missing the market.
We're leaning towards EG's approach of £40 upfront which can be put towards their order on the day. This would nearly get them one print.
It could maybe benefit from a little crop to place her a little more centrally, cropping isn't something we do for proofing as its done instantly during/after the shoot.
On the Huh
Little Ball of Fur
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I feel for you. Great pictures yet all for nothing.
A few years back Venture offered just one free 7x5 framed piccy, no obligation to buy. I admit I'm not sure if a sitting fee was paid, probably was. However, on top of the freebie 3 more 7x5's were bought in frames (frames probably worth a couple of quid at cost to them) for £75 each. The pics I was pleased with, but neither the wife or I was expecting £75 each, but we still bought. If the prices were more reasonable we would have liked to have bought more, but if they can sell 3 @£75 why sell 6 at say £240, which I would have preferred.
A few years back Venture offered just one free 7x5 framed piccy, no obligation to buy. I admit I'm not sure if a sitting fee was paid, probably was. However, on top of the freebie 3 more 7x5's were bought in frames (frames probably worth a couple of quid at cost to them) for £75 each. The pics I was pleased with, but neither the wife or I was expecting £75 each, but we still bought. If the prices were more reasonable we would have liked to have bought more, but if they can sell 3 @£75 why sell 6 at say £240, which I would have preferred.
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Yup...in this case I honestly think they didn't have the disposable income to part with £45 for a print. I think they came along with the sole intention of getting the 2 freebies...
You know what they say....once bitten twice shy, things will need to change!
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Thanks for the sound business advice sunshine, 10 points for stating the bleedin' obvious!
So if it was that obvious why did you do it.?? :shrug:
I dont think your response to a pretty basic statement should be quite so rude.
I think the shot is great and well deserved of the parents parting with some hard earned cash & I know this thread is to help vent some slight anger but please be a little more polite
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To put it into context this is the 2nd post from chip ive found slightly ignorant, apologies if it appears rude.
We're aware of the flaws of the business model and are looking to adjust it. Just not used to it happening and when your producing some of the best images we (individually and as a team) have produced it really sucks.
As you say the post really is a vent! :bang:
No problem Matt & now I understand your tone of response. Sorry if I have missed something..?? I can only imagine how you feel. Too many free-loaders out there in all aspects of life & when it affects you personally & financially it must suck.
Some good work there so keep it up between you and I hope you succeed in your venture & may this be a lesson learned.
Some good work there so keep it up between you and I hope you succeed in your venture & may this be a lesson learned.
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Yup...thinking £40 booking fee which is transferred to the client order if they appear. Onwards and upwards!
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I am actually starting to take offence at being called ignorant twice. I fail to see how my post above causes you to perceive me as ignorant? (Reply not required).
Matt
10 out of 10, you advertised free, the customer took what you advertised.
Great advertising.....It worked !
Business Model Sucks ...You made not money !!!
I think most of us have been there.
I think this is the gyst of what Chips was saying in his post.
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I think it is a case of alot of hard work to create a nice image but for little reward.
Point taken with regards to offering free prints and we are looking to change this anyway, however the issue still remains that we had two bookings where people turned up with no real intention of buying anything.
Moving forward we need to hit the market that will be able/willing to buy.
Alot local (to us) studios go with the free print idea so I was to be honest a little surprised that sales were as low for us yesterday.
The above shot is my favourite from the day, the processing is rough but does the job for viewing.
Point taken with regards to offering free prints and we are looking to change this anyway, however the issue still remains that we had two bookings where people turned up with no real intention of buying anything.
Moving forward we need to hit the market that will be able/willing to buy.
Alot local (to us) studios go with the free print idea so I was to be honest a little surprised that sales were as low for us yesterday.
The above shot is my favourite from the day, the processing is rough but does the job for viewing.
EdinburghGary
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Matt989 said:
I would stop short of calling it a flaw. Your playing a numbers game, with a carrot and stick. I still do a LOT of free print sessions, 75% of them or so. There are others here doingn the same (headless louis).
I sell to 90% to 95% at the moments, and only those with no money don't spend.
My cheapest unframed photo is £95, and whilst people are sometimes a little shocked, when they see their photos and after I explain ALL the stuff we so, it mellows them.
Matt for the record, I used to struggle with the free print and then invested over £2k in one on one sales training specific to studio. I also asked friends and family to observe in the background my sales / viewing technique, and their feedback has worked wonders.
Can you talk me through your viewing process, sales chat etc, and I will give you my thoughts. I'm not an expert....yet
G.
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Sorry Gary, didn't notice you had replied, I managed to get stuck over your way last night so have only just got home.
The process just now is:
- Complete shoot
- Pick up a few price lists, one for me and one for the client.
- I start at my 'mini frames' (which start at £45, the same as my prints) working through my range to what I call 'large format frames'
- I try to talk up the quality of my products and how I don't put my name to anything but the best. Peoples response is generally really positive to the sample items but at the weekend they seemed wary to be too keen. Like they didn't want to show interest, I read this as being very cautious of spending money or being 'sold' anything.
- Once I have talk through each product I give them space to talk while I check on processing progress.
-I try and open up a discussion about which products they like and find out more info about what they are looking for.
- When processing is complete, usually with in 10-20 from end of the shoot we sit them down at the mac and let them flick through the images. They take note of the images they like on a piece of paper.
- We then discuss which products they would like and how each image they like would apply to a product.
Some things I think we may be doing wrong:
- I don't try and up sell to frames if they immediately start talking prints. A small frame costs me around £8-10 while a print costs £1. Perhaps this is the wrong approach.
- Perhaps processing is too quick, if images can be created THAT quickly where is the value.
- Perhaps the viewing should be slicker.
Although we could improve I don't understand how we took £1900 in orders from 4 appointments previously and dropped to £600 in prints from 5 this time. (which happened to be saved by a 'friend' taking one of those appointments.)
Im confused.... :-s
The process just now is:
- Complete shoot
- Pick up a few price lists, one for me and one for the client.
- I start at my 'mini frames' (which start at £45, the same as my prints) working through my range to what I call 'large format frames'
- I try to talk up the quality of my products and how I don't put my name to anything but the best. Peoples response is generally really positive to the sample items but at the weekend they seemed wary to be too keen. Like they didn't want to show interest, I read this as being very cautious of spending money or being 'sold' anything.
- Once I have talk through each product I give them space to talk while I check on processing progress.
-I try and open up a discussion about which products they like and find out more info about what they are looking for.
- When processing is complete, usually with in 10-20 from end of the shoot we sit them down at the mac and let them flick through the images. They take note of the images they like on a piece of paper.
- We then discuss which products they would like and how each image they like would apply to a product.
Some things I think we may be doing wrong:
- I don't try and up sell to frames if they immediately start talking prints. A small frame costs me around £8-10 while a print costs £1. Perhaps this is the wrong approach.
- Perhaps processing is too quick, if images can be created THAT quickly where is the value.
- Perhaps the viewing should be slicker.
Although we could improve I don't understand how we took £1900 in orders from 4 appointments previously and dropped to £600 in prints from 5 this time. (which happened to be saved by a 'friend' taking one of those appointments.)
Im confused.... :-s
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Wow! So £40 wouldn't even give them one print yet you're giving away two prints at the equivalent of £90??
To me, this is madness. If you're charging those prices for prints and giving a free sitting, that's fine, but you're targeting a specific market if print prices start in excess of £40 and it's not surprising if you get people taking not one, but two of these for free!
I offer a free shoot but with nothing else thrown in. I let the images sell themselves and the fact I've given an hour of my time is more than enough to give up, I'm actually torn between offering the free shoot next year or charging a few for it, but either way they'll still get nothing free, because people will, and as you've found out, do take the p***.
Sorry to go off topic, the image is fine and would/should sell, but you're basically taking the best part of £100 out of your own pocket and handing it over, it's madness.
Someone mentioned Venture earlier, their free print offer is subject to the £25 booking fee but they hammer the client in the viewing, they're salesmen first and photographers second. They're great at what they do and that's why they succeed.
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Yeah I know what your saying...a free shoot in my mind is asking for people not showing up.
The source of the 2 free prints was when I ran these event on my own with no other photographer, I would basically do online viewings. The 2 free prints was a teaser to encourage an order to be placed, and worked.
I continued this offer as my source of clients is from a certain mums network and people who hadn't made previous dates were interested in future events.
At the same time, as you have pointed out, the free print offer does work elsewhere including venture and EG's venture. It also doesn't explain the big drop in orders from the 2 previous shoots.
We are still learning the ropes, my confidence with sales will increase as I have worked in sales before. Its just about finding about what people respond to. I realise the importance of sales in photography and is the area im looking to perfect next as I feel the images are there or there abouts.
The source of the 2 free prints was when I ran these event on my own with no other photographer, I would basically do online viewings. The 2 free prints was a teaser to encourage an order to be placed, and worked.
I continued this offer as my source of clients is from a certain mums network and people who hadn't made previous dates were interested in future events.
At the same time, as you have pointed out, the free print offer does work elsewhere including venture and EG's venture. It also doesn't explain the big drop in orders from the 2 previous shoots.
We are still learning the ropes, my confidence with sales will increase as I have worked in sales before. Its just about finding about what people respond to. I realise the importance of sales in photography and is the area im looking to perfect next as I feel the images are there or there abouts.
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Matt, I assume you run a studio? This makes it even more of a case not to give anything away.
I go to people's homes, I offer the shoot free so I pay for the travel and the actual shoot (only within a certain mileage though) but I still never offer a free print. I'm considering charging a fee in the new year but am really struggling with this as I think it may kill interest a lot. There will still be no print though.
The reason I'm thinking of doing this is because of the late cancellations. I've only had 4 or 5 in the last year but all of them have failed to rebook and I've lost other bookings as a result and it's p***ed me off. Having said that, I've done over 70 sittings this year that have all kept the booking and paid well so it's a small percentage of cancellations.
If you have a studio, your overheads are way above anything I have and that's even more reason not to give your work away. One free print is more than enough, two is asking for trouble. to me, offering the free shoot is more than I should be doing but then I make sure that the end product does the job and gets the sale. To give away two prints that would usually cost them £90 and then ask them to spend more, I think psychologically they feel they've got a great deal already and that they should quit while they're ahead.
Give them something for free as in the shoot, but then give them a reason to spend lots of money after.
I go to people's homes, I offer the shoot free so I pay for the travel and the actual shoot (only within a certain mileage though) but I still never offer a free print. I'm considering charging a fee in the new year but am really struggling with this as I think it may kill interest a lot. There will still be no print though.
The reason I'm thinking of doing this is because of the late cancellations. I've only had 4 or 5 in the last year but all of them have failed to rebook and I've lost other bookings as a result and it's p***ed me off. Having said that, I've done over 70 sittings this year that have all kept the booking and paid well so it's a small percentage of cancellations.
If you have a studio, your overheads are way above anything I have and that's even more reason not to give your work away. One free print is more than enough, two is asking for trouble. to me, offering the free shoot is more than I should be doing but then I make sure that the end product does the job and gets the sale. To give away two prints that would usually cost them £90 and then ask them to spend more, I think psychologically they feel they've got a great deal already and that they should quit while they're ahead.
Give them something for free as in the shoot, but then give them a reason to spend lots of money after.
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I don't have a studio, I started doing hotel 'events' in August, this was the 3rd and I have another on the 18th of December (which I don't expect to fill but I am using as a learning experience.)
I do have costs involved including the hotel and Stevie (the OP) though so really can't afford to be giving too much away.
2011 is going to be a steep learning curve and hopefully this time next year I will be fully booked for 1-2 weeks solid portraits all spending £500 each.
I do have costs involved including the hotel and Stevie (the OP) though so really can't afford to be giving too much away.
2011 is going to be a steep learning curve and hopefully this time next year I will be fully booked for 1-2 weeks solid portraits all spending £500 each.
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It's the nature of it, I'm afraid. We were hacked off a couple of weeks ago with our viewings, did about 6 on the trot, all yielding an order of less than £250 each...one was a £200 prepaid voucher, which we sold 2 years ago...had their shoot and spent nothing more. Another family (Grandparents, 2 children with their partners, and also the grandchildren) - all came in for a shoot, they viewed, loved the shots, went away 'to think about it' and came in a week later and said 'we've decided not to order, we think they're too expensive' - fair enough, it's their decision after all - but everyone who books up gets a price list. Walk in's leave with a pricelist and brochure, we're totally transparent about our pricing...and I find it very hard to believe anyone would arrange a 10 person shoot, with people coming from various places, would do so without checking the prices. I just don't believe that...I'm expecting a call in a couple of weeks tbh, along the lines of 'oh, we'd buy them if you dropped the prices...'
No chance.I did a 14 person group recently - same sort of thing, grandparents and various groups. The grandparents have ordered one framed image (£155) and 'pre selected' images to go on cd, once we have done a further 3 viewings of the same shoot so all the seperate families can choose their shots, and add/remove to the cd. These viewings, hopefully, will happen, but no guarantees...and it also means we'll have done 4 1hr viewings on the same shoot!
You start to question yourself, your sales technique, everything - and then you have a better week - we did about £4.5K from 3 shoots ...and suddenly, you're giving yourself a pat on the back for doing well.
It's just variance - it would be easier if the bad clients didnt all come at the same time...but they do, it's the way it goes, I'm afraid.
With regard to the 'free shoot free print' type deals - a friend of mine ran a westend makeover studio who did that for a while, and they worked out that 25% will either not show, or not spend, no matter what you offer them, or at what price. You could be showing them the best images in the world, but they will NOT buy...they've already decided. The frustrating part is that you won't know who these clients are until after you've done the shoot, the edit and the viewing - only then do you find out if they are a freebie chaser or not. I guess the skill lies in identifying them early, and not spending too much viewing time when there is no sale to be had. These type of clients will be attracted to 'free shoot free print' but not so attracted when they have to invest a bit of money themselves.
Personally, I dont offer free shoots (£25 booking dep, refunded against an order) - I will occasionally offer a 'free print with any order' voucher, or 'free DVD slideshow' - but anything I offer as an incentive is ALWAYS accompanied by a sale of some kind, so worst case scenario is they have to buy the cheapest item on my pricce list (unframed A4, £75) to claim the freebie.
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Now thats an idea.....a free print with any order!! If you don't order - you don't get it, that way, i'm guaranteed income and still offering something free.
Im also tempted down the road of £25-£40 booking fee which can be used to purchase products. This would be non-returnable so they 'have' to order.
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I even offer to refund the booking fee!
'Pay the £25, have the shoot, and if, at the viewing, you decide you don't want to buy any of the images, I'll refund your £25...so the only thing it's cost you is a little time...'
It demonstrates a confidence in your work, and gives them a 'nothing to lose' situation...been offering that for over 3 years, and never had to refund it yet!
Let's face it, if you're taking studio quality shots of everyday people, you should be able to shoot plenty that will 'WOW!' them, and they'll want to buy!