Online fraud problem

[Garry Edwards]

I'm involved with a small animal rescue charity.
We noticed that one or more people have used our current account to pay for their vehicle VED payments, quite a few different vehicles involved, possibly a dodgy car dealer taxing vehicles for their customers, but we'll never know.

First step was to ring the police. The officer was friendly and sympathetic but told me that the police don't investigate online fraud. but he would refer it to their specialists, the National Fraud Intelligence Bureau. I aleady knew, from previous experience, that this would result in a "No further action" decision, but had to accept it because the actual police wouldn't or couldn't do anything. He gave me, instantly and by text, a crime number.

I then reported it to the bank, who immediately refunded the fraudulent transactions, but their only suggestion for preventing further fraud was to close the account.

I've now received a letter from the National Fraud Intelligence Bureau, saying that there's nothing that they can do. I find this hard to understand because they have the vehicle registration number of each of the vehicles involved, what more can they possibly need?

No wonder that online fraud is so widespread

 

[woof woof]

Maybe it's a combination of too few cops and bigger fish to fry for those that exist?

It does seem an easy cop though so you'd think it could be handled by, well, almost anyone.

 

[Garry Edwards]

Maybe it's a combination of too few cops and bigger fish to fry for those that exist?

It does seem an easy cop though so you'd think it could be handled by, well, almost anyone.

Personally, I think that it may be down to ignorance of the problem. My previous experience of online fraud was about 9-10 years ago, we received a very large order for some very specialised equipment from a new customer, it just didn't look right. So, I got the phone number of the delivery address and spoke to a very nice old gentleman who told me that he knew nothing about the order. After some prompting, he told me that a very nice young lady who he met in the supermarket car park had told him that something needed to be delivered to her but she was out at work all day, so could he accept it for her? long story short, she said that she would arrive to collect it from him at 2 pm next day.

I rang the police, who told me that there was nothing that they could do because they didn't know where the crime had actually been committed. I pointed out that at least part of the crime would be committed at 2 pm the next day, when the fraudster would collect the stolen goods, but that wasn't good enough, and again I was told that the National Fraud people would get in touch - which they did, 5 weeks later!

Maybe there aren't enough cops. The police farce involved is North Yorkshire, they have 1661 Officers but only 10 of them deal with fraud, even though fraud Fraud is now the most common crime in England and Wales, costing the UK economy £137bn each year. If my experience is typical, 10 police officers will be enough to deal with the number of cases actually referred to the police.

 

[woof woof]

It's amazing really. If the police put as much effort into doing even something as they seem to put into thinking up reasons why there's nothing they can do maybe we'd have a lot less reasons to bother them at all.

 

[nog]

So much for “all crime must be investigated”

I wonder what the situation is in other countries

 

[lindsay]

Other countries invest in their police force rather than keep cutting their numbers and letting experienced officers leave in droves.
If I recall correctly, City of London Police handle financial crime. No idea of a contact number though.

 

[ecoleman]

Action fraud are just as bloody useless as the police. Another bunch of over paid people who do stuff all.

I have passed them names, addresses, phone numbers and all sorts for credit card fraud and they never do a damn thing.

 

[Garry Edwards]

So much for “all crime must be investigated”

I wonder what the situation is in other countries

It isn't just fraud that doesn't interest them. I know a farmer who had a forklift stolen, value £25K, from his barn one night. He rang the police, told them that his CCTV cameras clearly showed the faces of all 3 thieves, but all the police did was to give him a crime number, they didn't bother to visit or to look at the CCTV.

But, strangely, they did do something about the alleged theft of an electric bike, owned by the next door neighbour of my youngest son. The owner is a violent alcoholic, always in trouble with the police for low level crime, he has assaulted my son twice but the police only brought a charge once. He has also assaulted several other neighbours but is usually just given "words of advice" by the police. He lost his driving licence for drunk driving and then acquired the electric bike. He later claimed that it was stolen and blames my son in his fakebook posts. My son thinks that he probably went out on it, got drunk and forgot about it and that it will be near a pub somewhere . . .

So, the police visited my son and insisted on searching his flat, without a warrant, despite the criminal history of the neighbour and the faultless record of my son. Strange that.

As it happens, this is all North Yorkshire Police, but I expect that other forces are the same.

 

[Box Brownie]

@Garry Edwards

Does the bank transaction show the vehicle registration as it's payment reference.....or some other appropriate DVLA code?

If so, I wonder if DVLA have a contact number to report the fraud......one such crime could likely be associated with other vehicle 'crime' ???

 

[Garry Edwards]

@Garry Edwards

Does the bank transaction show the vehicle registration as it's payment reference.....or some other appropriate DVLA code?

If so, I wonder if DVLA have a contact number to report the fraud......one such crime could likely be associated with other vehicle 'crime' ???

Yes they do show a reference number plus index number, good idea. Perhaps the DVLA at least will be interested.

 

[Box Brownie]

Yes they do show a reference number plus index number, good idea. Perhaps the DVLA at least will be interested.

Hopefully they will indeed listen, especially as you have reported (and got ref/crime number?) it to the Police & Fraud Agency.

PS at the very least by proving they paid the VED using fraudulently obtained funds ....the VED hopefully can be cancelled ideally without the fraudsters being told and that will = an ANPR stop and something the Police can act on.

Plus I wonder if the DVLA collaborate with the insurance industry such that if the fraudsters are using the same way to pay for their insurance?

 

[cosmicma]

when i had a problem with money going missing out of my account a while back i knew who the culprit was and informed the police with details etc and their response was because the bank had refunded me then the crime was with the bank and not me and if the bank didn't want to press charges no further action would be taken

i wonder if it the same sort of scenario with yours

 

[Garry Edwards]

when i had a problem with money going missing out of my account a while back i knew who the culprit was and informed the police with details etc and their response was because the bank had refunded me then the crime was with the bank and not me and if the bank didn't want to press charges no further action would be taken

i wonder if it the same sort of scenario with yours

No, because in my case I contacted the police before I contacted the bank.
Possibly the police either don't understand fraud or simply don't allocate sufficient resources to it.

 

[Brentor]

Did the charity open a new bank account and did the fraud stop?

 

[Garry Edwards]

Did the charity open a new bank account and did the fraud stop?

Yes. What we had to do was to open an additional bank account that, in effect, replaces the compromised one.
The compromised one cannot be closed because supporters make donations to it. So, the only way forward was to block all outgoing transactions from it, money can be paid into it but nothing can be paid out, and at the end of each working day whatever balance is in the account is automatically transferred to the additional, replacement account.

Setting this up involved 3 very long and frustrating phone conversations with the bank, the last of which took 1 hour 50 minutes.

In addition to all this time-wasting, we now need to set up new direct debits and standing orders on the additional account . . .

 

[Brentor]

Yes. What we had to do was to open an additional bank account that, in effect, replaces the compromised one.
The compromised one cannot be closed because supporters make donations to it. So, the only way forward was to block all outgoing transactions from it, money can be paid into it but nothing can be paid out, and at the end of each working day whatever balance is in the account is automatically transferred to the additional, replacement account.

Setting this up involved 3 very long and frustrating phone conversations with the bank, the last of which took 1 hour 50 minutes.

In addition to all this time-wasting, we now need to set up new direct debits and standing orders on the additional account . . .

How frustrating. The charity is the injured party but has received little support but a lot of hassle. At least the fraud has stopped

 

[JonathanRyan]

Hopefully they will indeed listen, especially as you have reported (and got ref/crime number?) it to the Police & Fraud Agency.

PS at the very least by proving they paid the VED using fraudulently obtained funds ....the VED hopefully can be cancelled ideally without the fraudsters being told and that will = an ANPR stop and something the Police can act on.

Plus I wonder if the DVLA collaborate with the insurance industry such that if the fraudsters are using the same way to pay for their insurance?

I don't really know anything about VED fraud but my guess is they might actually be paying VED on fake plates.

Steal a car, swap the plates and move it to a different part of the country and you probably have a free car. But leave it untaxed and it will get clamped. So....hack a bank account and buy VED for the fake plates (not certain this is possible but if you tell the government you want to pay them money then usually they agree). I do't think oyu can get clamped for lack of insurance but this may have changed - even if you don't move the vehicle you need it and there's a giant database of it so it would make sense to get the VED clampers to clamp for lack of insurance.

I do know a little about insurance premium fraud - it's usually instalment based. Personally I'm amazed that crimmos set up direct debits to pay for stuff and "we" are powerless, but I know there are some areas where insurance premium fraud is rife and it's usually DDs.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

I do't think oyu can get clamped for lack of insurance but this may have changed - even if you don't move the vehicle you need it and there's a giant database of it so it would make sense to get the VED clampers to clamp for lack of insurance.

You cannot get a VED without valid insurance, therefor: no Insurance, no VED, car gets removed (evidence: various TV programmes about police removal powers). If you have a VED, then the police ANPR, if activated by your car, will back search from the VED to check the insurance is still valid, if not but the VED is, then you may be given a day or two to renew the insurance (evidence: various programmes about police use of ANPR).

Bottom line: you can only be lucky so many times before you get unlucky. Of course, if you're driving a tank, matters may turn out differently...

 

[taxboy]

No, because in my case I contacted the police before I contacted the bank.
Possibly the police either don't understand fraud or simply don't allocate sufficient resources to it.

My guess is one of insufficient resources and case prioritisation - although that doesn't help you. Hopefully you've got it resolved now. Crime against charities for some reason seems even more heartless

 

[boogie man]

The police seem largely uninterested in fraud and will often just tell you to report it to ActionFraud, who will do mostly nothing as well. I’ve always presumed it’s down to lack of staff or unwillingness by the CPS to prosecute, even when arrests are made. I have a mate who’s an ex Met police officer and one of the reasons he jacked the job in was his increasing frustration at the lack of cases ever brought to trial, even with very solid police evidence behind it.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

...the lack of cases ever brought to trial, even with very solid police evidence behind it.

Blame the MPs, the lawyers and the judiciary.

In my opinion there are too many laws, too many details, too many exceptions and too few sitting hours. If courts were to change over to 6 day / 16 hour / 2 shift working, they could get through a lot more work. If the laws were simplified, so that everyone knew where they stood, many more cases could be dealt with in a given time.

Then we could go on to the question of punishment...

 

[Garry Edwards]

The police seem largely uninterested in fraud and will often just tell you to report it to ActionFraud, who will do mostly nothing as well. I’ve always presumed it’s down to lack of staff or unwillingness by the CPS to prosecute, even when arrests are made. I have a mate who’s an ex Met police officer and one of the reasons he jacked the job in was his increasing frustration at the lack of cases ever brought to trial, even with very solid police evidence behind it.

I agree. Whatever the reasons, the public simply aren't getting anywhere near the standard of service we should be getting. It's easy to blame the police - and I largely do - but if the Home Office won't give them the resources they need, they can't be effective.

Blame the MPs, the lawyers and the judiciary.

In my opinion there are too many laws, too many details, too many exceptions and too few sitting hours. If courts were to change over to 6 day / 16 hour / 2 shift working, they could get through a lot more work. If the laws were simplified, so that everyone knew where they stood, many more cases could be dealt with in a given time.

Then we could go on to the question of punishment...

It may be significant that, in the USA, most fraud cases result in a conviction but in the UK, hardly any do.
But the problem isn't limited to the type of fraud suffered by our charity, the massive frauds perpetrated by very large companies generally go unpunished too. The governments' serious fraud office has a very large staff, but they are very poorly paid and they must struggle to get the right people. Over the years, they have changed their director many times, the last one was an American who had great success whilst working for the FBI, but who achieved even less than most of the others whilst working here for, as Private Eye puts it, the Serious Farce Office. And her replacement is a retired senior police officer who has zero working experience of fraud . . .

We have to ask "Does the government actually want to beat fraudsters, or would doing so upset a lot of their donors? ". But, this problem has been going on for ever, and isn't limited to the current party in power.