People and portraits feedback. :(

FlyTVR

FlyTVR

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Edit My Images
No
Is it me or have things got EVEN worse!?

Looking at the stats, there are still hundreds of people viewing images - but very few commenting.

I don't know the solution to this - but surely something can be done to encourage feedback?

Thoughts?
 
Age old problem you give feedback and the op will just disagree or spit the dummy. If not the op then someone is likely to. I'm not interested in taking time to comment on an image to get little or nothing bacj
 
boyfalldown said:
Age old problem you give feedback and the op will just disagree or spit the dummy. If not the op then someone is likely to. I'm not interested in taking time to comment on an image to get little or nothing bacj
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I've only been here a few weeks, but it seems this is the case.
If it's not wedding photographers publishing their entire weeks' work in one post (seen one wedding, seen them all - sorry guys, I know it's your job and all but really?), then it's truly abysmal portraits (happy-snaps?) that when commented upon simply result in the OP getting the huff and telling you that "while everyone's entitled to an opinion, he disagrees" - giving the impression that they're after a pat on the back and little else.

Thoughtful critique is easier to give the better the image - the photographer is usually more accomplished and is confident enough in his own mind to discount stupid comments and glean from all the posts the true nuggets of information that he might find useful without his precious feeling being trampled upon.
Beginners often aren't confident enough in their own abilities to tell the difference between 'proper' crtitique' and someone telling them their pictures just suck.

It's also very hard for someone whose job involved editing other photographers' images to be less...terse in manner.
If one of our photographers sent in images from a routine job that I considered sub-standard (and I'm not talking about basic skills like exposure, composition, white-balance, focus etc) - he'd get a very terse email from me reminding him that his contract was only good so long as I continued to approve his images for the board.
Bad-captioning was my bugbear and I was pretty ruthless with the guys if they slacked-off when providing file info.

Being 'nice' doesn't come naturally when it comes to bad photography. You won't improve if people keep slapping your back and telling you how great you are, when in reality your photos are only good enough to paper the downstairs john.

If your images are exhibiting any of the basic errors mentioned above, then there's no point commenting - if you can't see that the exposure is all wrong, the white balance is off, or your image is back-focussed, then you're beyond help - unless you say "My images are constantly too light/dark/back-focussed, what am I doing wrong? I've tried X, Y and Z, but nothing seems to work!" - that shows you've identified the problem but haven't the skills to correct it.
 
I think there is a large element of that, but don't forget this forum welcomes all levels of members (rightly so) and so it may be that someone has been shooting professionally years or someone has had a DSLR a week. You can tailor your C & C on that basis

That said though, my comment still stands. When someone tell you they meant to set lights up that way (to give great big hotspots on the cheeks :shrug: just for example), or doesn't even bother replying you do think why do I bother?
 
I agree with alot of what you said in your post cobra. ALOT of people on here are amatures/new to photography and looking to improve as they go along.
If a tog that takes pics ofr a living gets it wrong then he needs to be told, as they SHOULD know better, but this is a site with more amatures and people who take pics at a weekend for PLEASURE so maybe there is a way of telling someone without tearing a new strip off them because the composition is wrong.

From reading your posts I think you could give alot to new people with crit, but remember they are amatures enjoying a hobby not the next front page news pic.

I started about 18 months ago and I just learning now about how to get a good pic, I am not a natural, after trying to get the pics right in the camera with settings but it would be nice when posting a pic for someone to come back with why it is good or why it is bad without tearing into them because they should have known better.

people come here to learn and I think how they are told makes a big difference to how they receive the information, If they are told it is just rubbish without a little bit of info on how to improve or take the same pics differently for whatever reason then people go straight on the offensive IMHO

just my 2 cents

spike
 
No I get that guys - but the OP needs to inform you of that skill level up front.
Just because he's only got 3 posts doesn't necessarily mean he's a beginner - and just because someone else has 8,000 posts doesn't mean they take good photos either - they just spend a lot of time on the computer...
 
All fair points. But what bugs me is the fact that people can't even be bothered to say "Yes I like it" "No I don't"

At the moment there seems to be lots of taking and not lots of giving!
 
I am not a professional photographer, nor do I post images for critique as I am my own worst critic but have just read this thread then looked at the most recent degeneration of a critique thread into an argument.....

The problem is - photography is personal and subjective.

I stopped reading one of the monthlies because, in my opinion, the critique of readers shots section degenerated into a competition of who could be the rudest commentator. The fact that I thought the main protagonists work was crap is irrelevant.

I agree with the thread contributors who say - if you ask for critique don't bitch when you get it - on the other hand generic insults with no suggestion of how to overcome the critique is less than helpful.

Surely the rule is - if you don't want to hear the critique don't ask for it but if you are unable to be constructive don't comment either:razz:
 
cobra_lite said:
I've only been here a few weeks, but it seems this is the case.
If it's not wedding photographers publishing their entire weeks' work in one post (seen one wedding, seen them all - sorry guys, I know it's your job and all but really?), then it's truly abysmal portraits (happy-snaps?) that when commented upon simply result in the OP getting the huff and telling you that "while everyone's entitled to an opinion, he disagrees" - giving the impression that they're after a pat on the back and little else.

Thoughtful critique is easier to give the better the image - the photographer is usually more accomplished and is confident enough in his own mind to discount stupid comments and glean from all the posts the true nuggets of information that he might find useful without his precious feeling being trampled upon.
Beginners often aren't confident enough in their own abilities to tell the difference between 'proper' crtitique' and someone telling them their pictures just suck.

It's also very hard for someone whose job involved editing other photographers' images to be less...terse in manner.
If one of our photographers sent in images from a routine job that I considered sub-standard (and I'm not talking about basic skills like exposure, composition, white-balance, focus etc) - he'd get a very terse email from me reminding him that his contract was only good so long as I continued to approve his images for the board.
Bad-captioning was my bugbear and I was pretty ruthless with the guys if they slacked-off when providing file info.

Being 'nice' doesn't come naturally when it comes to bad photography. You won't improve if people keep slapping your back and telling you how great you are, when in reality your photos are only good enough to paper the downstairs john.

If your images are exhibiting any of the basic errors mentioned above, then there's no point commenting - if you can't see that the exposure is all wrong, the white balance is off, or your image is back-focussed, then you're beyond help - unless you say "My images are constantly too light/dark/back-focussed, what am I doing wrong? I've tried X, Y and Z, but nothing seems to work!" - that shows you've identified the problem but haven't the skills to correct it.
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That is arrogant and unhelpful to those trying to learn.
 
A lot of what's been said here certainly rings true with me. I find it difficult to comment on what I can only describe as 'snapshots'. Not to be derogatory, but giving critique takes time and effort. If I think the poster has spent less time and effort than I think is required for critique then I'm less inclined to offer any.

On the other hand, someone who has clearly spent time trying to get a good shot and has also taken the time to ask for specific feedback rather than "what do you think?" then I'm more likely to offer an opinion.

Sometimes, I think people are just asking too much to expect in-depth critique without providing enough information to begin with. So, I'm not surprised that they're often met with very brief responses.
 
cobra_lite said:
No Kev...it isn't - try reading it again.
And again
And again.

If the point still eludes you, well I'm sure I'll get over it.
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So your comment to the recent poster regarding WW1 B&W images is constructive critique then?

You, as a picture editor, (perhaps), are looking at 'professional's' - by definition someone who gets paid for...... , work which should be to a certain standard. If this were the case here I'd agree.

A 'newbie' who gets the exposure wrong or who, god forbid, fails to observe the 'Rule of thirds' or some other such crap, should be slated for their efforts?

If that's the case I think Suvvs point stands.

I agree with your comment on the post, but..... a constructive suggested remedy would, in my opinion, have been useful;)
 
FlyTVR said:
All fair points. But what bugs me is the fact that people can't even be bothered to say "Yes I like it" "No I don't"

At the moment there seems to be lots of taking and not lots of giving!
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Dav...here's the problem

I saw your ''Cold Rock Face'' this morning and thought an ''excellent'' study of the young lad..all balanced..then I noticed the graffiti

was about to say ''clone it out'' then thought ''Wait - Dave is good - ergo he must see it - -ergo he wants it in the image''

so I said nothing...maybe wrong
I know you wouldn't object and .:dummy:..but I felt unsure what to say really

and that I think could be a reason so many new members are reticent to comment

I know a Mod will now slap me and say you should comment anyway...:lol::lol::lol:
 
cyclamens said:
So your comment to the recent poster regarding WW1 B&W images is constructive critique then?

You, as a picture editor, (perhaps), are looking at 'professional's' - by definition someone who gets paid for...... , work which should be to a certain standard. If this were the case here I'd agree.

A 'newbie' who gets the exposure wrong or who, god forbid, fails to observe the 'Rule of thirds' or some other such crap, should be slated for their efforts?

If that's the case I think Suvvs point stands.

I agree with your comment on the post, but..... a constructive suggested remedy would, in my opinion, have been useful;)
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But the wartime image description was probably the most accurate way of depicting exactly what some of us could see. Without knowing what the original poster had done in terms of processing, it would be difficult to suggest what to do. As it turns out, the OP doesn't think there's an issue with the colour. What else can you do, but reaffirm that there is an issue with the colour?
 
DigitalRelish said:
But the wartime image description was probably the most accurate way of depicting exactly what some of us could see. Without knowing what the original poster had done in terms of processing, it would be difficult to suggest what to do. As it turns out, the OP doesn't think there's an issue with the colour. What else can you do, but reaffirm that there is an issue with the colour?
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Agreed Digital - some of us are beyond help:help:
Whatever you do you can not please everyone all of the time. I do agree the colour is somewhat strange.... maybe we are all being sent subliminal messages to use processing software? I blame the guys at Adobe:schtum:
 
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cyclamens said:
So your comment to the recent poster regarding WW1 B&W images is constructive critique then?

You, as a picture editor, (perhaps), are looking at 'professional's' - by definition someone who gets paid for...... , work which should be to a certain standard. If this were the case here I'd agree.

A 'newbie' who gets the exposure wrong or who, god forbid, fails to observe the 'Rule of thirds' or some other such crap, should be slated for their efforts?

If that's the case I think Suvvs point stands.

I agree with your comment on the post, but..... a constructive suggested remedy would, in my opinion, have been useful;)
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That image did look like a hand-coloured WW1-era B&W image: that was the first thing that struck me when I saw it - those hand-tinted photos in the IWM.
Other people put it differently, but we all ultimately agreed that the post-work was flawed.

The caveat in the last paragraph of my post above ^^ explains that I feel the onus is on the OP to educate us as to their skill-level otherwise this is just going to keep happenning.

Besides - sometimes a crap photo is just a crap photo - and where does it say in the forum rules that it's my job to teach photography to all the newcomers?
I was told this was a friendly place populated by some good photographers with whom I could spend sometime bantering. I came here for some chat with like-minded individuals, not to be taken to task by people who can't be bothered to read a couple of books on camera-handling before they start posting images for critique.
People here seem more obsessed by whether to use UV filters or not than going out and actually taking photographs, posting them and talking about the images.
Either that or asking why they can't get access to the classifieds section.

Yes, I've been doing this for a very long time. Yes I got paid a lot for doing it (towards the end, anyway). Maybe I have something useful to pass on, maybe not.
"Share your knowledge" was something one of the moderators said a few weeks ago to one of my less verbiose posts - well if I do, why can't I do it on my terms?
Writing lengthy responses trying to explain my 'reasoning' to people who plainly don't get it is both frustrating and futile. What's in it for me?
 
Well, I read this whole post and thought it was one of the best and well-thought-out explanations of critiqueing I've read ;
cobra_lite said:
...Being 'nice' doesn't come naturally when it comes to bad photography. You won't improve if people keep slapping your back and telling you how great you are, when in reality your photos are only good enough to paper the downstairs john.

If your images are exhibiting any of the basic errors mentioned above, then there's no point commenting - if you can't see that the exposure is all wrong, the white balance is off, or your image is back-focussed, then you're beyond help - unless you say "My images are constantly too light/dark/back-focussed, what am I doing wrong? I've tried X, Y and Z, but nothing seems to work!" - that shows you've identified the problem but haven't the skills to correct it.
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...so when Suvv didn't like it I was puzzled. :thinking:

I like it a lot.
 
cobra_lite said:
No Kev...it isn't - try reading it again.
And again
And again.

If the point still eludes you, well I'm sure I'll get over it.[/QU

Because this is the kind of people that come along, is there any need to be like this?:nono:
Its not what is said, its how it is said, one of the first things you learn when helping people.
I think people don't always comment because of this, people are argumentative, if they say something, someone comes along and shoots them down, make comments, constructive but not rude, help people, that's the kind thing to do. That way maybe more will join in.
Dav i like a lot of your work and enjoy looking, sorry for never commenting.
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Your points are well made cobra_lite and your views are valuable - this is not a get at anybody conversation.

Someone with obviously vast experience is a valuable asset to any photography site.

What's in it for you - don't know but maybe the knowledge that you have passed on some of that vast experience.

There are those who will never accept help.

Look at the original posters comment no 28, (I think), in the original thread - 'I used skin smoothing because that's what I thought you did', (or similar). That's half the problem!

Anothers comment was along the lines of ' use the rule of thirds':gag:

Unfortunately 'your terms' while truthful and heartfelt will not always be what someone else wants to hear - believe me I've spent years trying to avoid not suffering fools only to come to the conclusion that idiots p**s me off.......

I also agree with you ' a crap photo will always be a crap photo', - except there are those that will not agree;)

Keep up the good work:thumbs:
 
I think cobra_lite's contributions so far have been insightful and very interesting to read. They may not be sugar coated posts, but I don't think they're rude either or at least I don't perceive the intention is to be rude nor ridicule.

I think this is just one of those cases where you need to know more about where the person asking for critique is coming from.

If someone told me my photos looked like they were WW1 B&W, hand-painted then I'd be off to learn more about monitor calibration because I'd have a clear understanding of what they could see. If more than a few people alluded to the same thing then I'd only be more convinced there was a problem on my side and that these people were trying to help me fix it.
 
I think this is the trouble with this site, there are people that are really really good (proffesional I will call them) then there are people that have just picked up a "proper" camera for the first time.

The people that are just starting out take a snap shot and it is much better in their mind than what they used to take with their P&S so there is no wrong, you pro's come along and donot tell people where they are going wrong snap shot or otherwise because you think you should not have too.

Ok this site is full of pros and more so full of newbies so IMHO if you cannot crit in a nice way, whether it be a snap shot hating pic or not then nothing should be said, its all in the way you tell someone how to do things.
some people will never accept that they need to improve so next time you need not comment on their work as to whats the point.

As for the comment "whats in it for me" this is a public forum where if you are good you will probably not get anything out of it apart from the banter, but you could get out the fact that you have just made someones day by inproving there pic so next time they might do something different.

I have learned so much over my time being here it is unreal, if not for this forum I would not be at the point I am now, I was looking through my pics from when I first got the camera to now and I have improved, all through this site. oh and taking pics of course and self learning.

This is a great site and the better togs make it that, and looking at theior pics makes me try harder.

spike
 
:)to: SpikeK6

Excellent point

to: Digital

see my last post

to cobra_lite

see SpikeK6 post above - that's why you need to keep commenting:)
 
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1. Too many people here have a false impression of their abilities.
2. Too many people here know nothing about a subject - or read it in a book - but still give 'advice'.
3. Too many people here are equipment collectors/owners and are not/never will be photographers.
4. A few people have skill - an eye - and potential.
5. A lot of people have valueable experience worth listening too.
6. The latter category are often ignored because of 1,2,3.

Sad but true.

Cobra_lite - you'll soon be as popular around here as me! :thumbs:
 
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SpikeK6 said:
As for the comment "whats in it for me" this is a public forum where if you are good you will probably not get anything out of it apart from the banter, but you could get out the fact that you have just made someones day by inproving there pic so next time they might do something different.
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If thats the case a 'thank you' or acknowledgement would be nice, not a dummy spit because they don't agree with you. If you disagree discuss.

My other pet hate is people who quote Scott Kelby with no other info, or quote some random named processing technique again with no other input, especially why it might work
 
awp said:
1. Too many people here have a false impression of their abilities.
2. Too many people here know nothing about a subject but still give 'advice'.
3. Too many people here are equipment collectors/owners and are not/never will be photographers.
4. A few people have skill - an eye - and potential.
5. A lot of people have valueable experience worth listening too.
6. The latter category are often ignored because of 1,2,3.

Sad but true.

Cobra_lite - you'll soon be as popular around here as me! :thumbs:
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Why would you make a virtue out of being unpopular?
 
Because sadly, talking sense and telling the truth, seems to make you so.
 
Well, I'll bet People and Portraits is on fire now. I've certainly just lost 2 hours of my life! Now, back to working on my own images...
 
I spend a lot more of my time commenting on others than posting my own.

You can easily tell someones level of ability by looking at post count, sigs, equipment and more importantly, the image itself.

Its pretty obvious to someone that has spent time here looking at 1000's of photos, what level the photographer is.

I will go out of my way to check out images that have either not been or only commented on once or twice, just to give it a bump. Sometimes it encourages others to comment as well. I am less likely to post if the photo has already had 10+ comments.

You've also got to take in to account that sometimes there is nothing to be said. I've recently posted on a thread as the first C&C and it resulted in a couple of others just agreeing with me.

I don't get out with my camera as often as I should, but always ask for C&C, even if its just to be told its ****!

EDIT: Plus, it gives me something to do while at work instead of dreaming about going full time :D
 
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awp said:
Because sadly, talking sense and telling the truth, seems to make you so.
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I'm not trying to be provocative. I'm trying to understand what,as a newbie, I'm supposed to do. Criticised if I don't post, as a parasitical none contributor. Or a score whore trying to get access to classieds if I do.

Cobra Lite and I have clashed in the past about the difference between a pro photographer and an amateur. The issue is applying the critique that may be relevant in a busy picture desk environment to an amateur genuinely seeking help.

Just saying "This is terrible" makes him look nasty and puts off the OP.
 
awp said:
Because sadly, talking sense and telling the truth, seems to make you so.
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Andrew, yet again, it's not what you say, it's how you say it that's the problem, and if you don't get that by now, having been told probably hundreds of times.... :shrug:
 
cobra_lite said:
SNIP

Besides - sometimes a crap photo is just a crap photo - and where does it say in the forum rules that it's my job to teach photography to all the newcomers?
I was told this was a friendly place populated by some good photographers with whom I could spend sometime bantering. I came here for some chat with like-minded individuals, not to be taken to task by people who can't be bothered to read a couple of books on camera-handling before they start posting images for critique.
People here seem more obsessed by whether to use UV filters or not than going out and actually taking photographs, posting them and talking about the images.
Either that or asking why they can't get access to the classifieds section.

SNIP
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I have no issues with you being direct, but if you are a "professional" and know so much I would expect you to finish with constructive criticism. No matter what you think of another persons images, if you cannot be polite and suggest how somebody could have made the shot better, then maybe you shouldn't say anything at all.

Courtesy costs nothing, except a little time.

Steve

Sent from my iPad using TP Forums
 
Jelster said:
I have no issues with you being direct, but if you are a "professional" and know so much I would expect you to finish with constructive criticism. No matter what you think of another persons images, if you cannot be polite and suggest how somebody could have made the shot better, then maybe you shouldn't say anything at all.

Courtesy costs nothing, except a little time.

Steve

Sent from my iPad using TP Forums
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I agree, be straight and to the point but in a kind way, again its deviated from the main post, posted by Dav.
 
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Although I'm still in the bungelling amateur category, so maybe that doesn't entitle me to comment, but I have to agree with cobra lite as well - there is way way too much dross posted with people expecting it to be praised to the ceiling. I know my shots are not of any note, so I don't post any. I do read occasionally to see if I can learn from others, but the sheer volume is such I might as well use the random image function in flickr!

I said it before - there needs to be some sort of limit on the quantity people post. Its simple :

Limited quantity = more consideration of what to submit + more likelihood of constructive criticism.

If people want to share all their shots with people, theres no shortage of places to do that - facebook, flickr, etc...and they can get Likes there... But put (say) one shot here a week, ideally with what you think works and what doesn't, then theres a much higher chance of getting useful feedback...

I'm not suggesting some kind of beard stroking session with everyone having to spend an hour composing comments in haikus over a single image in an empty white art gallery...but Quality before Quantity every time!
 
flossie said:
I'm not suggesting some kind of beard stroking session with everyone having to spend an hour composing comments in haikus over a single image in an empty white art gallery...but Quality before Quantity every time!
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Thanks for that image...I'm currently growing a Billy Gibbons tribute beard!
 
Ok guys, let's just bring this back to the point in hand. Honest and constructive feedback is important for us all to improve our photography and move forward. Accepting that we have different tastes and that photographs are subjective is a huge part of it. For me it is about having the confidence to give c&c on a shot when
I am still a very inexperienced tog. If we loose professional togs and other tp'ers who take time to post super shots, it will only hinder our learning process. We all need to take more time to comment on others work.

It should not be about 'you comment on mine and vice versa'. I find comments that just say whether they like and why they like the shot or not very helpful.

Perhaps talk photography needs a new section for indepth crit. Shoot from the hip but be prepared for very honest feedback.

Just my thoughts.
 
Jannine thanks for your kind words.

To all. Thanks for taking the time to write up some really valuable arguments.

Moving on, volume of posts - or at least the number of users seems to be a poblem these days. Now I could be wrong, but is there an in depth c&c section (for portraits)? If there isn't one, I'd like to see one. I feel this may discourage people from posting images in the C&C section when really they should be posted in General Images. This section could be labelled 'HARSH CRIT' or 'ONLY FOR THOSE THAT WANT TO IMPROVE"

I really think it would benefit us all if there were different forums for togs at different levels. Some of the work I see on TP blows me away - some (and I'm not being nasty) falls into the category of "A picture of little jimmy this morning whilst walking across our kitchen".

The question to which I don't have an answer to is "How do you seperate different levels of work?"

I just feel that TP was once a service that I would have financially valued has become diluted. We have a great forum here. There are some really experienced togs and some very talented newbies. I think we need to look after both.

Bit of a jumbled post, more of a brain dump.
 
Jelster said:
No matter what you think of another persons images, if you cannot be polite and suggest how somebody could have made the shot better, then maybe you shouldn't say anything at all.

Courtesy costs nothing, except a little time.
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If it is a **** photo what is the point in sugar coating? I have been told work I thought my best was not worth bothering with. I love when people are brave enough to call a spade a spade.

I hate the sugar coating and hence why I don't post much in crit sections. If you are posting for crit, take everything you can get.

Also there are so many snap shots that I find it hard to wade through it all to find something to crit properly. I think it is more a case of too many people posting snapshots of grandchildren or children and weddings, all of which I have zero interest in. i do try to comment on Band portraits, live music etc. as it is what I do, and have something more to offer, or action sports.

Also nothing worse than those who post for crit, you give it and nothing, the post has no reply from the OP and you wonder why you bothered.
 
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