Beginner Photographer's ephemeris and the like

[londonbackpackr]

This maybe a strange request and I'm not sure its even possible but here goes.

I've used apps like the photographer's ephemeris to shoot sunsets/rises and moon rises, I also used stellarium to pinpoint the milky way but is there a way to work out where the sun/moon's altitude will be at a particular time and date?

I want to get a picture of a full moon over the Shard in London, when it is close to the top of the Shard but can't find a way of knowing when this will happen. I would have to make a special trip to North London for this and would rather know when this is likely to be, than have to rely on pot luck and make the trip once every month.

So is there an app to work this out or a way to find out this kind of information

G

 

[Phil V]

TPE will show you when the full moon occurs, of course it won't predict the weather.

 

[Keebsuk]

Try PhotoPills, I'm sure that the app can do what you are asking.
Before spending £10 (yes it's expensive but totally worth it imo) check out their tutorial/how to videos on YouTube.

Andy

 

[chris malcolm]

The moon is never "on top of the shard". There's a whole range of positions of the moon in the sky where you could find a position on the ground which would place it over the top of the sharp. It's a combination of where you are and where the moon is. If the moon is too high above the shard move closer. If the moon is to the right of the shard move to the left. Of course as you move around other buildings will get in the way of your view of the shard. So you first need to select positions from which you get your preferred views of the shard, find out the angles of view of the top of it, and then use the TPE (or any of several similar apps) to find out when the moon will be in the desired positions.

 

[londonbackpackr]

The moon is never "on top of the shard". There's a whole range of positions of the moon in the sky where you could find a position on the ground which would place it over the top of the sharp. It's a combination of where you are and where the moon is. If the moon is too high above the shard move closer. If the moon is to the right of the shard move to the left. Of course as you move around other buildings will get in the way of your view of the shard.

Ok got it, I think thats what I was trying to get across, you put it better than I did

So you first need to select positions from which you get your preferred views of the shard, find out the angles of view of the top of it, and then use the TPE (or any of several similar apps) to find out when the moon will be in the desired positions.

So how would I go about working out the the angle of view to the top of the Shard? Maths is not a strong point for me. I have a position start point of Primrose Hill in North London.

Thanks

G

 

[StewartR]

OK, as a bare minimum you need to know the horizontal distance from the camera position to the top of the Shard, and also the change in elevation from the camera position to the top of the Shard. That will enable you to calculate the angle from the horizon to the top of the Shard, as seen from the camera position, and you can then compare that with calculations of the moon's position from software like TPE.

The horizontal distance is easily measured from a map but the elevation change isn't so easy. The Shard is 310m high, but what is the altitude of its base? And what is the altitude of your proposed camera position on Primrose Hill?

 

[Steve B]

The horizontal distance is easily measured from a map but the elevation change isn't so easy. The Shard is 310m high, but what is the altitude of its base? And what is the altitude of your proposed camera position on Primrose Hill?

You can get that too from TPE, just place the location pin beside the Shard and read off the elevation above the top right of the map. Then move the pin to your shooting position to read off the elevation there.
Not sure if it shows on the app version, you might need to use the desktop one ???

 

[londonbackpackr]

OK, as a bare minimum you need to know the horizontal distance from the camera position to the top of the Shard, and also the change in elevation from the camera position to the top of the Shard. That will enable you to calculate the angle from the horizon to the top of the Shard, as seen from the camera position, and you can then compare that with calculations of the moon's position from software like TPE.

The horizontal distance is easily measured from a map but the elevation change isn't so easy. The Shard is 310m high, but what is the altitude of its base? And what is the altitude of your proposed camera position on Primrose Hill?

You can get that too from TPE, just place the location pin beside the Shard and read off the elevation above the top right of the map. Then move the pin to your shooting position to read off the elevation there.
Not sure if it shows on the app version, you might need to use the desktop one ???

Ok. Thanks for the help I will have a play around with TPE

 

[StewartR]

You can get that too from TPE, just place the location pin beside the Shard and read off the elevation above the top right of the map. Then move the pin to your shooting position to read off the elevation there.
Not sure if it shows on the app version, you might need to use the desktop one ???

Oh that's interesting, I didn't know you could do that. And in fact it's even better, because if you use a primary pin and a secondary pin, it will also tell you the distance and the altitude change between them - exactly what we need!

According to TPE the from Primrose Hill to the Shard is 6.66km, which is 6660m, and the elevation change is -44m. (Primrose Hill is at 49, above sea level; London Bridge Street at the base of the Shard is at 5m.) But the height of the Shard is 310m, so the elevation change from Primrose Hill to the top of the Shard is -44+310=266m. With me so far, OP?

So now here's the maths bit: the angle of elevation is arctan(266/6660) which works out to be 2.3 degrees. Not very much! The moon will only just have risen. So if you want to see it immediately above the Shard just after it has risen, it obviously has to rise somewhere pretty near the Shard.

That turns out to be extremely interesting. The moon rises in different places on the horizon at different times of the month/year; from the UK it generally ranges from north-east-ish to south-east-ish. From any given place in the northern hemisphere, the furthest south the moon can rise is when it's full around the time of the summer solstice. This year for instance we have full moons on June 9th and July 8th, and from Primrose Hill, the compass bearings to those moonrises are 121° and 122°. And the interesting thing is that the compass bearing from Primrose Hill to the Shard is 126° - just a little bit further South than the most southerly possible moonrise. So in other words, the moon can only rise anywhere near the Shard, as seen from Primrose Hill, when it's full near the summer solstice.

A little bit of playing around with TPE should help you narrow down the time window for the photo. I found that on June 9th at 21:19, the moon will be on the exact same compass bearing as the Shard, and at an altitude of 2.4°. That's just about perfect; but there will be very similar configurations for several days around that time, and also for several days around the next full moon on July 8th.

 

[StewartR]

Here's a very quick and crude mockup of what you might see be able to see from Primrose Hill, with a lens of around 200mm.



Personally I think you'd be better off trying to find a viewpoint further away and using a bigger lens. For example if you could find a viewpoint two to three times as far away and use a lens that's two to three times as long. The Shard would appear the same size in the frame but the moon would be two to three times as big.

 

[Lemaildetom]

I tried something similar some time ago. I wanted a large full moon with my local cathedral in the same shot. I was distant but not too far and used a 150-600mm on full frame. Turn out that i couldn't get moon and foreground exposed properly on the same shot. I would have needed to make a composite which kind of went against the original idea of shooting something like. Also to get the cathedral properly expose at f/6.3 i would have needed a really slow shutter speed much much slower that shooting the moon which can be done handheld. So i gave up...

 

[Steve B]

I tried something similar some time ago. I wanted a large full moon with my local cathedral in the same shot. I was distant but not too far and used a 150-600mm on full frame. Turn out that i couldn't get moon and foreground exposed properly on the same shot. I would have needed to make a composite which kind of went against the original idea of shooting something like. Also to get the cathedral properly expose at f/6.3 i would have needed a really slow shutter speed much much slower that shooting the moon which can be done handheld. So i gave up...

You are better off the day before the full moon, it rises about 45-55 minutes earlier so there is still some daylight remaining, which makes it a lot easier to expose in one frame.

 

[londonbackpackr]

Oh that's interesting, I didn't know you could do that. And in fact it's even better, because if you use a primary pin and a secondary pin, it will also tell you the distance and the altitude change between them - exactly what we need!

According to TPE the from Primrose Hill to the Shard is 6.66km, which is 6660m, and the elevation change is -44m. (Primrose Hill is at 49, above sea level; London Bridge Street at the base of the Shard is at 5m.) But the height of the Shard is 310m, so the elevation change from Primrose Hill to the top of the Shard is -44+310=266m. With me so far, OP?

So now here's the maths bit: the angle of elevation is arctan(266/6660) which works out to be 2.3 degrees. Not very much! The moon will only just have risen. So if you want to see it immediately above the Shard just after it has risen, it obviously has to rise somewhere pretty near the Shard.

That turns out to be extremely interesting. The moon rises in different places on the horizon at different times of the month/year; from the UK it generally ranges from north-east-ish to south-east-ish. From any given place in the northern hemisphere, the furthest south the moon can rise is when it's full around the time of the summer solstice. This year for instance we have full moons on June 9th and July 8th, and from Primrose Hill, the compass bearings to those moonrises are 121° and 122°. And the interesting thing is that the compass bearing from Primrose Hill to the Shard is 126° - just a little bit further South than the most southerly possible moonrise. So in other words, the moon can only rise anywhere near the Shard, as seen from Primrose Hill, when it's full near the summer solstice.

A little bit of playing around with TPE should help you narrow down the time window for the photo. I found that on June 9th at 21:19, the moon will be on the exact same compass bearing as the Shard, and at an altitude of 2.4°. That's just about perfect; but there will be very similar configurations for several days around that time, and also for several days around the next full moon on July 8th.

Here's a very quick and crude mockup of what you might see be able to see from Primrose Hill, with a lens of around 200mm.

View attachment 103148

Personally I think you'd be better off trying to find a viewpoint further away and using a bigger lens. For example if you could find a viewpoint two to three times as far away and use a lens that's two to three times as long. The Shard would appear the same size in the frame but the moon would be two to three times as big.

WOW! thanks for that @StewartR that is some impression number crunching. I only have a 55-200 on a crop sensor and I know Primrose Hill gives a clear line of sight, not sure where further north would give the same.

 

[Lemaildetom]

You are better off the day before the full moon, it rises about 45-55 minutes earlier so there is still some daylight remaining, which makes it a lot easier to expose in one frame.

Sometime the full moon is at 12am too...
But yes you're right trying this kind of shot in day light would be really possible. But by night really hard!

 

[Steve B]

Sometime the full moon is at 12am too...
But yes you're right trying this kind of shot in day light would be really possible. But by night really hard!

Yes the full moon can be at midday, but it doesn't rise at that time though.

 

[StewartR]

I only have a 55-200 on a crop sensor and I know Primrose Hill gives a clear line of sight, not sure where further north would give the same.

Hmm. Tricky. Hampstead Heath is a bit futher away (8km) and has a good view of the Shard, but unfortunately it's too far east. The compass bearing to the Shard is 140°, and as we saw earlier the most southerly moonrise is only around 122°. By the time the moon has tracked round to be above the Shard as seen from the Heath, it will be far too high in the sky. Alexandra Palace is a good viewpoint but it's even further east. And I can't think of any other decent viewpoints in north London. So Primrose Hill is probably your best bet.

If you're willing to accept alternative targets, Canary Wharf is 11.5km from the viewpoint at Parliament Hill on Hampstead Heath, and the compass bearing is 122°. So it should be possible to get the moon rising over Canary Wharf, and the moon will look bigger compared to the skyscrapers than it will if your target is the Shard from Primrose Hill. Here's another quick mockup.

 

[londonbackpackr]

Hmm. Tricky. Hampstead Heath is a bit futher away (8km) and has a good view of the Shard, it's too far east; the compass bearing to the Shard is 140°, and as we saw earlier the most southerly moonrise is only around 122°. By the time the moon has tracked round to be above the Shard as seen from the Heath, it will be far too high in the sky. Alexandra Palace is even further east. And I can't think of any other decent viewpoints in north London. Primrose Hill is probably your best bet.

If you're willing to accept alternative targets, Canary Wharf is 11.5km from the viewpoint at Parliament Hill on Hampstead Heath, and the compass bearing is 122°. So it should be possible to get the moon rising over Canary Wharf, and the moon will look bigger compared to the skyscrapers than it will if your target is the Shard from Primrose Hill. Here's another quick mockup.

View attachment 103251

Unfortunately for the project I'm working on, it needs to be the Shard this time around. I will keep in mind the one over Canary Wharf. Playing around with TPE and checking full moons, I see there is a super moon on the 3rd December and if I've working things out correct, instead of a moonrise I can get a moonset from Greenwich Park.

 

[Lemaildetom]

Yes the full moon can be at midday, but it doesn't rise at that time though.

I don't get your comment really. Do you believe the moon only set at night? Have you not seen the moon rising during the day before?
The moon takes 20h50 minutes to come back to the same place. That why the tide comes nearly an hour later every day.
So whatever you choose, moon rising, moon meridian, moon setting any of these can happen at 12am.

 

[Steve B]

I don't get your comment really. Do you believe the moon only set at night? Have you not seen the moon rising during the day before?
The moon takes 20h50 minutes to come back to the same place. That why the tide comes nearly an hour later every day.
So whatever you choose, moon rising, moon meridian, moon setting any of these can happen at 12am.

We are talking about a FULL moon though.

 

[StewartR]

Playing around with TPE and checking full moons, I see there is a super moon on the 3rd December and if I've working things out correct, instead of a moonrise I can get a moonset from Greenwich Park.

Yes, though I think you might be better off on December 4th, for two reasons:
(1) the moon sets behind the Shard on the 3rd, but on the 4th it sets to the north (right) of it, so it will be visible above the Shard rather than behind it;
(2) the moon sets a bit later, so the sky will be lighter and it will be easier to balance the exposure for the full moon, sky, and landscape.
Though I guess in reality, the day without clouds would be the best.

 

[StewartR]

Here's a useful resource I just found, for anyone who's thinking of emulating this sort of thing. The URL speaks for itself.

http://www.stevekeiretsu.co.uk/skyline-spotting-from-londons-hills

 

[arclight]

The moon is never "on top of the shard"......etc.

Soon could be with a bit of simple editing

 

[londonbackpackr]

Just a quick update, as @StewartR did a lot of work for this.

On Friday I made the trip over to Primrose Hill, a 3 hour round trip London traffic is a nightmare

The Moon did what was expected of it, and rose in the right place. Only problem was I didn't factor in the Sun and is been at roughly 180 degrees to the Moon, drowned it out by the time it was dark enough the Moon was to high and to far to the right of the shard to get any images that I liked.

Here's a pretty rough cropped shot of what was seen on the night

The one that didn't quite work by George Griffin, on Flickr

Luckily I've learn a couple of things, it needs to be darker (August is looking better for this) and a 200mm lens isn't long enough.