Photoshop + DeNoise (& extra question)

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Joe
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Hi all,

Following my post last weekend regarding using a complete ACR & Photoshop workflow, I am still playing around & trying out different things, so thank you very much again for all your support on that one.

But iv come to a bit of a stump that I’m confused about aha. Currently I use Topaz DeNoise & occasionally Sharpen AI & at the moment after initial processing of the raw file in LR I send it to DeNoise via Lr which creates a separate tiff file (with the adjustments) & comes back to Lr as a separate tiff... then if I send to Sharpen, the same happens again & a second tiff is created, but essentially all non destructive to the original raw.

So my question is, how would I go about using Topaz via PS after using ACR non-destructively? I understand to do other thing in PS non destructive I need to use layers or smart object, but is this the same for Topaz?

And as a side question if I may, what is the difference in PS of save as & export? I’d essentially want to end up with a jpeg file.

Thanks all, your help is all very very much appreciated :)
 
Sorry, I'm not sure I understand your processing process. Which file do you send to Sharpen AI - the original raw or the TIF created by DeNoise AI?

Question: If you have Topaz DeNoise AI why do you need to use Sharpen AI as well when DeNoise can do both noise reduction and sharpening at the same time? I have both apps on my PC but I can't remember the last time I used Sharpen.
 
Question: If you have Topaz DeNoise AI why do you need to use Sharpen AI as well when DeNoise can do both noise reduction and sharpening at the same time? I have both apps on my PC but I can't remember the last time I used Sharpen.

:plus1:
 
Sorry, I'm not sure I understand your processing process. Which file do you send to Sharpen AI - the original raw or the TIF created by DeNoise AI?

Currently in Lr if I go to Sharpen AI after DeNoise, then it sends the tiff created by DeNoise... but

Question: If you have Topaz DeNoise AI why do you need to use Sharpen AI as well when DeNoise can do both noise reduction and sharpening at the same time? I have both apps on my PC but I can't remember the last time I used Sharpen.



Currently in Lr if I go to Sharpen AI after DeNoise, then it sends the tiff created by DeNoise... but I’m look for advice on how to use them through photoshop as I want to move looking at possible other workflows away from LR.

As for why I use both, most of the time I do just you DeNoise, because as you say it does have a level of sharpening. However some images, mostly ones that are really shaking or out of focus, I find Sharpen AI can deal with those that much better than the sharpening in DeNoise :)

DeNoise is in my every day workflow, but I do still see it’s worth having Sharpen for those not so good shaky shots & to be honest at the price, it’s not expensive & I really don’t think it’s bad, then at least I know iv got it if I want it :)
 
Sorry, I'm not sure I understand your processing process. Which file do you send to Sharpen AI - the original raw or the TIF created by DeNoise AI?

Question: If you have Topaz DeNoise AI why do you need to use Sharpen AI as well when DeNoise can do both noise reduction and sharpening at the same time? I have both apps on my PC but I can't remember the last time I used Sharpen.
:plus1:
 


As for why I use both, most of the time I do just you DeNoise, because as you say it does have a level of sharpening. However some images, mostly ones that are really shaking or out of focus, I find Sharpen AI can deal with those that much better than the sharpening in DeNoise :)

DeNoise is in my every day workflow, but I do still see it’s worth having Sharpen for those not so good shaky shots & to be honest at the price, it’s not expensive & I really don’t think it’s bad, then at least I know iv got it if I want it :)
 
As for why I use both, most of the time I do just you DeNoise, because as you say it does have a level of sharpening. However some images, mostly ones that are really shaking or out of focus, I find Sharpen AI can deal with those that much better than the sharpening in DeNoise :)

DeNoise is in my every day workflow, but I do still see it’s worth having Sharpen for those not so good shaky shots & to be honest at the price, it’s not expensive & I really don’t think it’s bad, then at least I know iv got it if I want it :)


Be much better to get it right in camera - just my 10p's worth :)
 
Be much better to get it right in camera - just my 10p's worth :)

My Olympus kit is perfect for me & infact even when I do use DeNoise I don’t use it heavily. I also actually said that the only time I use Sharpen AI is when the image is shaky, but that is always due to me & not the camera actually. I am a total newbie only doing photography for 7mths, so unfortunately might not be as confident with the camera than yourself.

Also it dosnt matter what camera you get, full frame Sony or not, their all going to experience a level of noise & certainly shakiness if it’s down to unfortunately the persons hands! They also wouldn’t sell the software if it wasn’t for everyone to make use of :)

Oh and there is also the added fact, that I’m not a pixel peeper....
 
If you have a image that requires sharpen Ai imho you really should have binned it .as lez says getting it right in camera is the secret . Once again your overthinking it
 
If you have a image that requires sharpen Ai imho you really should have binned it .as lez says getting it right in camera is the secret . Once again your overthinking it

Totally agree with you mate! it definitely is better to get it right in camera & you know that my biggest goal & thankfully hardly need/use it :). I purely use it on them occasional images just to see what can be done.

I also put that particular reply, because unlike your constructive reply....., saying ‘you should have got better camera in the first place’ really isn’t good constructive advice! To me it just shows a user who wants to sit & pixel peep, and dosnt appreciate there are newbies to the world, with may other camera options, who just at the end of the day wants to learn their craft, learning from others wisdom & to have fun with there photography & don’t necessarily want ....
 
In all honesty, reading this and various other threads that you have started, I get the impression that you are trying to run before you have learnt to walk. My advice would be to first of all learn how to use your camera. By that, I mean to be able to continuously take sharp, in focus, well exposed photographs. You also need to learn some basic editing skills, but stick to using just one programme. Once you have become adept at using that particular piece of software, you can then start looking to add others to your workflow. But at the moment you seem to be trying to do too much too soon.

I fully appreciate this and understand totally where or coming from, but you know I have been learning this for over 8 mths now, and okay I’m no where near the standard of many of you guys, but personally I’m confident with how to use my camera & post processing now to a level that produces images I am happy with. Of course I’m still always learning & hopefully improving too, which is also why I’m starting to explore further advances in both the photography & post processing.

I appreciate you say stick with one workflow, but if I didn’t explor & try other workflows that I pay for and are made available to me and that other people use (not everyone uses/likes Lr), how would I ever find out what works best for me personally??.

I have been shielding since last March (still am) & photography is one of the only things that has kept me going through it all, but the reason I took photography was for a hobby, not an everyday hobby, because I will hopefully be back to work soon, but more importantly to learn & have fun and not to cause stress & worry. Now I fully appreciate that many want to take there hobby more seriously & want to get there craft so perfect that they get pixel perfect sharp images every time with hardly any processing ect. But I’m just taking advantage of kit & software out there that work for me.

Im sorry and don’t want to sound rude because this community has really helped me too throughout the last 8 mths, but it just annoys me (not your reply), but when other are so quick to give Non constructive reply’s, because they feel it’s their way or no way, I would much rather positive helpful reply’s like yours & Jeff. Okay I’m not saying I’ll always agree 100% but that’s the whole point of the forum, to share & discuss ideas but in a nice constructive friendly manner, which thankfully most of you have done/do :)

Thanks again :)
 
I agree that mild sharpening in Denoise is usually sufficient.
The question for me (lightroom) is whether to send the file to Denoise before and after LR adjustments.
Both ways work, my preference currently is post LR adjustments.

Yes it’s great to get it right in camera, but shooting birds with my D500 and 500mm PF on a gloomy day like today does mean noise.
Very often the bird moves on very quickly so getting it right first time in camera is difficult.
 
I agree that mild sharpening in Denoise is usually sufficient.
The question for me (lightroom) is whether to send the file to Denoise before and after LR adjustments.
Both ways work, my preference currently is post LR adjustments.

Yes it’s great to get it right in camera, but shooting birds with my D500 and 500mm PF on a gloomy day like today does mean noise.
Very often the bird moves on very quickly so getting it right first time in camera is difficult.

Lr & Denoise order wise, I too currently complete all my raw adjustments first and then send to DeNoise. Works well for me :)

Totally agree with your second comment too :)

Every camera, person & situation is different every single you take a different image. You could use the kit one day in one situation & then the same kit another day, but the circumstances can be totally different. For me that’s part of the fun of photography, particularly with birds. Unfortunately I think there is too much stress in people over getting it right in camera every time first time and if you not then you must have the wrong kit? Well that’s not true! Even the newest most expensive biggest sensor camera will still suffer problems and on the other side of the coin sometime the oldest cameras can get just as good shots as the new.

Also software like topaz DeNoise & Sharpen would not be there if it wasn’t to be used to help with photography and make things easier for the user. For me personally it actually makes me be able to enjoy photography more, because yes of course I won’t to get it right in camera first to best I can & I’m continuously learning to do so, but having these software there means I don’t have to stress & if something doesn’t work out to plan first time, theN I still have a chance to still use & enjoy the image I have captured. For me it’s fun & the subject capture that’s more important, now getting a pixel perfect award winning image that requires far too much stress! :)
 
Lr & Denoise order wise, I too currently complete all my raw adjustments first and then send to DeNoise. Works well for me :)

Totally agree with your second comment too :)

Every camera, person & situation is different every single you take a different image. You could use the kit one day in one situation & then the same kit another day, but the circumstances can be totally different. For me that’s part of the fun of photography, particularly with birds. Unfortunately I think there is too much stress in people over getting it right in camera every time first time and if you not then you must have the wrong kit? Well that’s not true! Even the newest most expensive biggest sensor camera will still suffer problems and on the other side of the coin sometime the oldest cameras can get just as good shots as the new.

Also software like topaz DeNoise & Sharpen would not be there if it wasn’t to be used to help with photography and make things easier for the user. For me personally it actually makes me be able to enjoy photography more, because yes of course I won’t to get it right in camera first to best I can & I’m continuously learning to do so, but having these software there means I don’t have to stress & if something doesn’t work out to plan first time, theN I still have a chance to still use & enjoy the image I have captured. For me it’s fun & the subject capture that’s more important, now getting a pixel perfect award winning image that requires far too much stress! :)

Hey Joe,

Apologies if my first question has opened up a debate that's not strictly in response to your initial question but you do tend to come across a bit defensive in your answers and that tends to lead to more aggresive responses from others.

The reason Sharpen and DeNoise both exist is that Topaz developed and launched Sharpen first and when they decided to create DeNoise they thought it would be a good idea to include Sharpen too as the two edits tend to go together. You can achieve the same result (if you know what your doing and have patience) in LR or PS but using the Topaz programs makes it easier, so why not use them? I don't think Sharpen does any better a job than the sharpen part of DeNoise.
 
Hey Joe,

Apologies if my first question has opened up a debate that's not strictly in response to your initial question but you do tend to come across a bit defensive in your answers and that tends to lead to more aggresive responses from others.

Hello, please don’t apologies, everyone is open to questions, I ask plenty aha & I also apologise if I seem defensive in my answers sometime, but I’ll be totally honest it really annoys me sometimes on these forum when (not yourself), but some people reply with an answer that is as though to say ‘well your opinions is wrong, what your saying is wrong’ ect... I’m just a strong believer that everyone is entitled to & has their own opinions & particularly with photography it is so personal of what work for the individual. Now of course I fully appreciate other people’s points of view, that why I ask the questions in the first place, but yeah just some answers I feel are not needed in the way they are written.

But apologies again, because I’m not a defensive person, I just want to have fun with photography :)

QUOTE="Bristolian, post: 8867764, member: 21450"]
The reason Sharpen and DeNoise both exist is that Topaz developed and launched Sharpen first and when they decided to create DeNoise they thought it would be a good idea to include Sharpen too as the two edits tend to go together. You can achieve the same result (if you know what your doing and have patience) in LR or PS but using the Topaz programs makes it easier, so why not use them? I don't think Sharpen does any better a job than the sharpen part of DeNoise.
[/QUOTE]

As for Sharpen & DeNoise, I never knew that I must admit & so that actually makes sense. I think maybe I need to spend a bit of time using the sharpen feature in denoise & see how it goes :)
 
My Olympus kit is perfect for me & infact even when I do use DeNoise I don’t use it heavily. I also actually said that the only time I use Sharpen AI is when the image is shaky, but that is always due to me & not the camera actually. I am a total newbie only doing photography for 7mths, so unfortunately might not be as confident with the camera than yourself.

Also it dosnt matter what camera you get, full frame Sony or not, their all going to experience a level of noise & certainly shakiness if it’s down to unfortunately the persons hands! They also wouldn’t sell the software if it wasn’t for everyone to make use of :)

Oh and there is also the added fact, that I’m not a pixel peeper....


Agree about noise when under difficult light conditions- I was merely indicating that my Full frame Sony bodies do handled noise exceptionally well & therefore: I can up the ISO to give my shutters speeds capable of doing the job sometimes over ISO 2000

Like this @: ISO 2,000 gave me a none shaky shutter speed of 1/3200th sec with little or no noise and fyi I am not a Pixel peeper either

DSC07439 GOLDEN PLOVER by Les Moxon, on Flickr

and a whopping ISO 6,400 giving me a shutter speed of 1/1000th sec @ f6.3 - I do NOT sharpen my images or use denoise or any other anti softness software- merely cropped in Photoshop with very little else in the way of PP - hence my comment of getting it right IN CAMERA as opposed to trying to manipulate a bad image using software-it never works in my opinion

DSC07307 Pied Wagtail @ Steart Marsh by Les Moxon, on Flickr

and to more emphasize my point here's one I shot at ISO 8,000

achieving a shutter speed of 1/2000th sec more than enough to eliminate any shaky images- given I was shooting hand held with a 600mm lens

DSC07173 Is this my best side by Les Moxon, on Flickr


Les :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Agree about noise when under difficult light conditions- I was merely indicating that my Full frame Sony bodies do handled noise exceptionally well & therefore: I can up the ISO to give my shutters speeds capable of doing the job sometimes over ISO 2000

Like this @: ISO 2,000 gave me a none shaky shutter speed of 1/3200th sec with little or no noise and fyi I am not a Pixel peeper either

DSC07439 GOLDEN PLOVER by Les Moxon, on Flickr

and a whopping ISO 6,400 giving me a shutter speed of 1/1000th sec @ f6.3 - I do NOT sharpen my images or use denoise or any other anti softness software- merely cropped in Photoshop with very little else in the way of PP - hence my comment of getting it right IN CAMERA as opposed to trying to manipulate a bad image using software-it never works in my opinion

DSC07307 Pied Wagtail @ Steart Marsh by Les Moxon, on Flickr

and to more emphasize my point here's one I shot at ISO 8,000

achieving a shutter speed of 1/2000th sec more than enough to eliminate any shaky images- given I was shooting hand held with a 600mm lens

DSC07173 Is this my best side by Les Moxon, on Flickr


Les :)

Morning Les,

Firstly I would like to say stunning images! & secondly I apologise for sounding a bit defensive in my reply, unfortunately I wasn’t in the best of moods yesterday morning due to another post elsewhere.

I do however fully appreciate what you saying though & I do of course I realise that a different cameras will perform better in different ways than others. I also appreciate that again of course it’s all about level of skill & I suppose at my still very new skill set, I’m happy with using software to support my image, but I do totally agree that’s it’s better to get it right in camera, regardless of kit you have and that certainly is something I strive for & will hopf get better at over time :)

Thank you though :)
 
After editing in LR (any tonal adjustments, cropping etc.), I would open the image in PS which automatically produces a 16 bit TIFF with Adobe RGB colour space. If I am editing a family pic or similar I will often just use De-Noise AI and use Clear Mode from PS or even Clear from Studio 2. This will apply denoise and sharpening and does a reasonable job for many images. However, If I am producing a competition image, I use Denoise AI but minimise any sharpening. I then use Sharpen AI with noise reduction set to minimum.

It is easy to make remarks such as "get it right in camera" but that assumes that we are using Topaz to correct errors. During the summer, the only photography I did was to visit several local Butterfly reserves. All the shots were taken at 1/1250s necessary to freeze movement and between f5 and f14 depending on the available light but typically f10. It was necessary to use ISO of either 1600 or 3200. Of course, ideally I would have liked to use a higher speed and smaller aperture at 100 ISO but it is not possible. So inevitably there may be some movement in the wings on a few shots and, though not very noisy on my 5D4, noise is visible at ISO 3200. When processed through Topaz DeNoise AI and Sharpen AI the images are then competition standard. Also because I have not been able to take many photographs this year (or last year for health reasons), I have started to look through older shots and have reprocessed a few to good effect including one I took at night at ISO 26000 which was previously unusable. I used to use Topaz from LR at one time but, as the effects are applied to a bit mapped image not Raw, it may as well be in PS. My final edited images are always stored as TIFF or PSD. If I need a JPEG, I will use LR export but do not store JPEGs long term.

Dave
 
After editing in LR (any tonal adjustments, cropping etc.), I would open the image in PS which automatically produces a 16 bit TIFF with Adobe RGB colour space. If I am editing a family pic or similar I will often just use De-Noise AI and use Clear Mode from PS or even Clear from Studio 2. This will apply denoise and sharpening and does a reasonable job for many images. However, If I am producing a competition image, I use Denoise AI but minimise any sharpening. I then use Sharpen AI with noise reduction set to minimum.

It is easy to make remarks such as "get it right in camera" but that assumes that we are using Topaz to correct errors. During the summer, the only photography I did was to visit several local Butterfly reserves. All the shots were taken at 1/1250s necessary to freeze movement and between f5 and f14 depending on the available light but typically f10. It was necessary to use ISO of either 1600 or 3200. Of course, ideally I would have liked to use a higher speed and smaller aperture at 100 ISO but it is not possible. So inevitably there may be some movement in the wings on a few shots and, though not very noisy on my 5D4, noise is visible at ISO 3200. When processed through Topaz DeNoise AI and Sharpen AI the images are then competition standard. Also because I have not been able to take many photographs this year (or last year for health reasons), I have started to look through older shots and have reprocessed a few to good effect including one I took at night at ISO 26000 which was previously unusable. I used to use Topaz from LR at one time but, as the effects are applied to a bit mapped image not Raw, it may as well be in PS. My final edited images are always stored as TIFF or PSD. If I need a JPEG, I will use LR export but do not store JPEGs long term.

Dave

Thank you Dave for you advice & tips here, very much appreciated :)
 
So my question is, how would I go about using Topaz via PS after using ACR non-destructively? I understand to do other thing in PS non destructive I need to use layers or smart object, but is this the same for Topaz?
Just send the file to PS (I recommend 16bit Tiff, ProPhoto) and apply Topaz from there; Filter > Topaz Labs > Denoise. Topaz will save it back into the document as a new/separate layer. The bonus is that even if you run several external filters/edits you end up with just one tiff file.
 
It seems we all have slightly different ways to get to our end result ,as long as your comfortable with your gear and your workflow and the resulting image that’s all that matters .if we all followed a set regime no one would learn anything .. I have helped a few peeps on to the ladder in my time most now exceed me in what they now produce . . And that does give me satisfaction
 
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