Photoshop ... knowing what you don't know

sirch

sirch

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This could just be lock down boredom but I am starting to feel that I could do more with Photoshop. I have it because it comes with LR but I don't really use it very often and I can honestly say that nothing I've ever done in it has ever been printed or published, mainly because I usually end up with something that looks like it was created by a 5 year old on acid. I have watched plenty of YouTube stuff and I can follow along but I often don't know WHY they are doing what they are doing and without the WHY it is hard to deviate from the recipe.

I'm pretty tech savvy and a Google grand master so finding stuff isn't the problem, the problem is knowing what I don't know. I also don't use PS often enough to remember exactly how to do some pretty basic things so it all gets a bit frustrating. So I guess what I am looking for is probably a pretty concise book and/or cheat-sheet that says something like "to achieve X do A, B, C" and also gives all the keyboard short-cuts and stuff like what each blend mode does in a sentence. If I want more detail I can get that from Google. May be a course would be an idea but generally I find technical courses are either too basic and slow or tend to focus on a few specifics.

Any suggestions?
 
I always find what I learn on Photoshop I forget, because I don't use it enough, so I have to go back over it again.

When I started learning Photoshop my go to books were by Scott Kelby, basically I found his style very easy to follow, and he not only explained what tools to use to do what, but where to actually find the tools which was half the problem, after I had got more than the basics I moved on to watching Aaron Nace from the Phlearn website, he has some great video tutorials on his Phlearn site, he actually has a whole Photoshop course from absolute beginner, to a very advanced user, it may be worth trying out both Scott Kelby and Aaron Nace, if you are getting stuck, or just needing a Photoshop booster.
 
I find I use Photoshop very little. I'll use it to blend layers with masking. Healing brush/cloning/spot removal - better than LR. For resizing/signature for web images. For stitching panoramas from LR - Which then go straight back to LR.

When you look at one of your images, you need to decide what you want to change/remove/etc in that image - You don't open an image & think 'hmmmmm, right, what can I do to this then....' Then you can decide which program to use & how to do it. As I said, I rarely use PS to edit an image because I do it all in LR.
 
TG. said:
I always find what I learn on Photoshop I forget, because I don't use it enough, so I have to go back over it again.

When I started learning Photoshop my go to books were by Scott Kelby, basically I found his style very easy to follow, and he not only explained what tools to use to do what, but where to actually find the tools which was half the problem, after I had got more than the basics I moved on to watching Aaron Nace from the Phlearn website, he has some great video tutorials on his Phlearn site, he actually has a whole Photoshop course from absolute beginner, to a very advanced user, it may be worth trying out both Scott Kelby and Aaron Nace, if you are getting stuck, or just needing a Photoshop booster.
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Thanks I'll take a look
 
Well I use LR and PS regularly but there a lot to take in if you only use occasionally, However, I do not think this is essential to producing a great final image. The key thing is to be able to envisage what you want to finally achieve. Once you have that, you do have a chance to achieve this even if you have to do so by a number of experimental steps. At my camera club the most successful photographer are all artist and the strong technical members tend to fall in the the 2nd level. What I do find is that the artists learn just enough to achieve what they want. Sadly, I am not a natural artist so do not always see the best in a scene or have as many original ideas but certainly know how to use LR and PS when I do have an idea.

Dave
 
I have used Photoshop for many years and sometimes I still find new ways of doing things.
 
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I might be getting on a bit, but my IT skills are reasonable. I find LR intuitive but PS far from it and hence rarely used. I have various books including Scott Kelsey and have watched some of the Aaron Nace videos but I still take my own notes as I do not use PS often enough. Most of the time I do not need PS as LR is fine.

All I can suggest is to use PS on a regular basis and you will hopefully learn.
 
sirch said:
This could just be lock down boredom but I am starting to feel that I could do more with Photoshop. I have it because it comes with LR but I don't really use it very often and I can honestly say that nothing I've ever done in it has ever been printed or published, mainly because I usually end up with something that looks like it was created by a 5 year old on acid. I have watched plenty of YouTube stuff and I can follow along but I often don't know WHY they are doing what they are doing and without the WHY it is hard to deviate from the recipe.

I'm pretty tech savvy and a Google grand master so finding stuff isn't the problem, the problem is knowing what I don't know. I also don't use PS often enough to remember exactly how to do some pretty basic things so it all gets a bit frustrating. So I guess what I am looking for is probably a pretty concise book and/or cheat-sheet that says something like "to achieve X do A, B, C" and also gives all the keyboard short-cuts and stuff like what each blend mode does in a sentence. If I want more detail I can get that from Google. May be a course would be an idea but generally I find technical courses are either too basic and slow or tend to focus on a few specifics.

Any suggestions?
Click to expand...
For things I do only occasionally I've started keeping notes in a notes app. Like doing my Tax or IT things with steps I blindly follow.
EG 1) Log in here. 2) User name is . 3) Click on menu... This is a godsend when I need it a year later. Like "Note to future self".

Some note apps sync between PC and phone like SimpleNote or Standard Notes. So they get used more as you can read and edit them anywhere. If I'm in the shops and need to know my bike tyre size to buy or a certain bulb voltage. I keep all that in the notes too. If I suddenly think of something when I'm out and about it doesn't get forgotten by the time I'm home.
 
ianp5a said:
For things I do only occasionally I've started keeping notes in a notes app. Like doing my Tax or IT things with steps I blindly follow.
EG 1) Log in here. 2) User name is . 3) Click on menu... This is a godsend when I need it a year later. Like "Note to future self".

Some note apps sync between PC and phone like SimpleNote or Standard Notes. So they get used more as you can read and edit them anywhere. If I'm in the shops and need to know my bike tyre size to buy or a certain bulb voltage. I keep all that in the notes too. If I suddenly think of something when I'm out and about it doesn't get forgotten by the time I'm home.
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Thanks I'll take a look, I tend to email myself for stuff I need to remember which works fine but notes end up spread across a lot of emails so an app might be better
 
gerry s said:

View all Photoshop tutorials

Filter by topic to find the latest Adobe Photoshop how-to tutorials, video tutorials, and hands-on projects.
helpx.adobe.com helpx.adobe.com
Click to expand...
Thanks, yes I know about that resource, however as per the thread title "knowing what you don't know" or as Donald Rumsfeld put it "unknown unknowns" it doesn't really help unless you work though all the tutorials and remember everything. I have been studiously avoiding giving specific examples in this thread because it will then become about just solving one specific thing and that is not what I need, however to give an example last weekend I stumbled across saturation masks, which seemed appropriate for something that I might need but is it the best approach for selective desaturation? and indeed the best approach for my specific use-case? AND it took me quite a while to translate the one or two pages there are on saturation masks into something I could use for what I wanted.
 
sirch said:
Ideally find a ...
Click to expand...
If you want to find "to do X, do a, b, c", you have first to define what X is. And X will probably turn out to have a different answer every time depending on the image. The possibilities are nearly infinite and limited only by your imagination. You've already pointed out that any book you've found is too simplistic. It just doesn't work that way. I could tell you what all the layer modes did for example, but until you actually try them out, and see the result for yourself, the explanation is actually pretty meaningless. A cheat sheet would look like a telephone directory and still couldn't possibly encompass all the subtleties. The nearest to that will be the help pages which will list everything. But knowing all that won't make you great at Photoshop any more than a list of art materials and their usage will make you a great artist.

Like most people, I learnt by doing, and my hunts through tutorials to help me realise my vision turned up all sorts of cool stuff. The key for me was grasping the concept of working in layers and then doing it every day as part of a 365 challenge.

Incidentally, you will also need a graphics tablet.
 
Another vote for PiXimperfect. I've been using PS for photos and work for years and years, but I learned a ton of new stuff in just one of his videos. (I think the video was 'remove fence with 3 simple steps).

I have always used PS in a very basic, crude way and was able to incorporate some new stuff into my basic, crude way of working.
 
LeeRatters said:
we all seem to be going in circles......
Click to expand...
We do don't we :)

As I said in #15 my question was not about a specific a how-to it is more "meta" than that. And whilst I do, for example follow PixImperfect, videos only tell you what they want to tell you rather than what I want to know and you have to watch hundreds and remember it all. For a given image there may be a specific thing I want to achieve but I am not looking to this thread to tell me how to do something specific, I was hoping to get recommendations for, as I said, something like a concise reference guide to PS.

I am very good at Googling and finding information but unless I know, for example that a Saturation Mask is actually a thing I can't google for it, a concise reference would be a good start to have the correct terminology that could then be searched for if I wanted more detail.

Anyway we probably better leave this now, I am clearly struggling to articulate clearly what my requirements are, so thanks all.
 
sirch said:
This could just be lock down boredom but I am starting to feel that I could do more with Photoshop.
Click to expand...

I'm not entirely sure what you want, but the issue I have with PS is knowing what I can and should be doing with it. Once I know what I want to do, I can then google to find out the mechanics of how its done. Which is what I thought you meant when you referred to not knowing what you don't know. But as I read later posts I became less sure.

I have found these people useful. It may seem odd to say this as I am not overly enthused by their photographs, but I find the reasoning behind what they do valuable. I've even paid for some of the online courses they run.


Have a look at the videos that introduce the courses as well as the blog posts.

And...

f64 Home - f64 Academy

f64academy.com f64academy.com

May not be of any help, but hopefully worth a look.
 
myotis said:
I'm not entirely sure what you want, but the issue I have with PS is knowing what I can and should be doing with it. Once I know what I want to do, I can then google to find out the mechanics of how its done. Which is what I thought you meant when you referred to not knowing what you don't know. But as I read later posts I became less sure.

I have found these people useful. It may seem odd to say this as I am not overly enthused by their photographs, but I find the reasoning behind what they do valuable. I've even paid for some of the online courses they run.


Have a look at the videos that introduce the courses as well as the blog posts.

And...

f64 Home - f64 Academy

f64academy.com f64academy.com

May not be of any help, but hopefully worth a look.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I've just had a quick look at the alteredspace one and it does look interesting and also kind of illustrates my point, I go to the first video on there and it's about the Channel Mixer and one of the first things he says is "you have probably been told not to touch it". Thing is, without sitting through a 37 minute video how do I know that I might want to use the channel mixer for some future image processing. A book that said if you want to convert to B&W with control over ... then use the channel mixer would be ideal, it does not need to say any more than that because I can find the rest for myself.

To use an analogy, people seem to be saying "tell me what you want to eat and I'll give you the recipe" and I am saying "show me the menu, I can look up the recipe"
 
sirch said:
This could just be lock down boredom but I am starting to feel that I could do more with Photoshop. I have it because it comes with LR but I don't really use it very often and I can honestly say that nothing I've ever done in it has ever been printed or published, mainly because I usually end up with something that looks like it was created by a 5 year old on acid. I have watched plenty of YouTube stuff and I can follow along but I often don't know WHY they are doing what they are doing and without the WHY it is hard to deviate from the recipe.

I'm pretty tech savvy and a Google grand master so finding stuff isn't the problem, the problem is knowing what I don't know. I also don't use PS often enough to remember exactly how to do some pretty basic things so it all gets a bit frustrating. So I guess what I am looking for is probably a pretty concise book and/or cheat-sheet that says something like "to achieve X do A, B, C" and also gives all the keyboard short-cuts and stuff like what each blend mode does in a sentence. If I want more detail I can get that from Google. May be a course would be an idea but generally I find technical courses are either too basic and slow or tend to focus on a few specifics.

Any suggestions?
Click to expand...
What do you hope Photoshop will provide that Lightroom can't?
 
I find I use Photoshop very rarely now - virtually everything is done in Lightroom (inc B&W conversions with Silver Efex Pro plug in).

The only time I use PS now is to remove any dust spots or sea spray on the filters. Sometimes the odd Dodge and Burn with a Layer Mask but very little.

All web resizing, signatures, developing etc all in LR.
 
Until recently I organised training courses at my club. Our approach was to show various images which may have needed some editing and ask the students what they think. Eventually we get a consensus that an area of the image needs to be darkened. We then demonstrate a couple of way this might be done but we did not want anyone to write down specific details but just understand the general principles. At one time we also set homework giving them several unedited images to take away and improve and explain what they had done the following week. I was very surprised how well the homework was accepted and most were unsure what to do at first but started experimenting with some of the processes we had shown. They learnt more from that than they did from us lecturing or demonstrating. It is the only way, to learn a few basic principles then try for yourself. You will not learn all that you want immediately but can build up the knowledge over time but keep practicing. One thing we always emphasised is edit a copy of your image then it does not matter if you make mistakes; you learn from mistakes.

Dave
 
The key to PS is fully understanding layers. Without this as a foundation its all uphill.
 
Brentor said:
I might be getting on a bit, but my IT skills are reasonable. I find LR intuitive but PS far from it and hence rarely used. I have various books including Scott Kelsey and have watched some of the Aaron Nace videos but I still take my own notes as I do not use PS often enough. Most of the time I do not need PS as LR is fine.

All I can suggest is to use PS on a regular basis and you will hopefully learn.
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Interesting, I am the opposite. Photoshop is second nature to me and lightroom feels like a foreign language. I guess sit comes down to what you learned first and what you use most.
 
sirch said:
A book that said if you want to convert to B&W with control over ... then use the channel mixer would be ideal, it does not need to say any more than that because I can find the rest for myself.
Click to expand...


I suppose I was assuming you would watch the videos :-(

The reason. I like these sources is that they spend the time saying why and when you might want to use the channel mixer, rather than just "how" you use the channel mixer. But they certainly involve a serious investment in time.

Some of the courses I've done have "sort of" specifically answered the type of questions you ask, but still leave it open to personal choice and the individual file being processed.

e.g in terms of b/w this course built a table of different methods that tried to answer the question you ask, as he worked through the training, but not in any conclusive way. https://courses.chromasia.com/p/art-of-black-and-white-photography.

It's also sort of covered by his ebook, but only briefly,. and you need to wade through a general intro to B/W photography to get to it. https://resources.digital-photograp...ack-and-white-book/ref/14/?campaign=DPS Black

I also did Ming Thein's black and white course and was surprised that a lot of the time he just desaturated the images, explaining why he used a particular approach on an image by image basis.

I suppose this is a long winded way of saying, that after many hours and many pounds on many courses, I haven't got any further than "it depends" though, in terms of B/W I have ended up using the approach Blake Rudis suggests on the F64 link I gave you. However, much as I enjoy using PS, laziness keeps me in Capture One most of the time.

Sorry I couldn't be of much help.
 
sirch said:
Thanks, I've just had a quick look at the alteredspace one and it does look interesting and also kind of illustrates my point, I go to the first video on there and it's about the Channel Mixer and one of the first things he says is "you have probably been told not to touch it". Thing is, without sitting through a 37 minute video how do I know that I might want to use the channel mixer for some future image processing. A book that said if you want to convert to B&W with control over ... then use the channel mixer would be ideal, it does not need to say any more than that because I can find the rest for myself.

To use an analogy, people seem to be saying "tell me what you want to eat and I'll give you the recipe" and I am saying "show me the menu, I can look up the recipe"
Click to expand...

There isn't a menu. What you are doing is asking for a map without saying where you are, or where you want to go, and being unhappy when all we can do is shrug and give you a globe..
 
The new search function in PS 2021 may be very useful for you... it's the search magnifier in the upper right corner of the interface. For instance I entered "blur" in the example image.

The first section is tools available to do blur with (notice the link to view all). If you hover over the link it will highlight where the tool is located, or you can click on it to activate it from the search results.
The second section is any applicable quick actions that can do it for you; activate them from the properties panel, or from the search results.
The third section is walk through tutorials on the topic.

Screen Shot 2021-01-22 at 9.31.02 AM.png


Or you can use the help menu similarly to have PS show related tools/functions and highlight their location as shown here.

Screen Shot 2021-01-22 at 9.42.21 AM.jpg
 
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I think I was very lucky in the way I learnt to use Photoshop, in that I started doing local Adult Education classes. This was just as I started getting into Photography again with my first digital camera, but the course started from a base of knowing nothing. This was good as the basics of the program were taught to give a basis to build on over time.

At the start we were creating basic 'images' using the paint brush, in addition to the eraser, and the built upon adding layers. All the time being told about any relevant shortcuts, be that short cuts to tools, or short cuts do a task. The most useful key combination was 'Control + Space Bar + Mouse click' to zoom into an image and 'Control + Alt + Space Bar + Mouse click' to zoom out of an image. That combination has saved so much time, and although the dexterity of those key combinations seems hard at first, it quickly became second nature. That is a base level thing that you know, or don't.

I learnt Photoshop before the Camera Raw plug in, and so well before Lightroom, :oops: :$ but I am glad that I did, as I have a good base level knowledge of the program. I learnt more over the courses I went on of course, but also started to learn new techniques as and when I needed, or found something specific that I needed to do. There are large parts of Photoshop that I have never touched, because they are are not related to photography, or I have never used them for something, and that's fine. :)

As an aside, I actually went and did a teaching qualification, and went back to work for the local Adult Education Service. I taught basic IT, and for time, the Photoshop classes. By that time Camera Raw and Lightroom were well established, but I started with the basics of Photoshop for the beginners in a similar way to the way I had been taught, and to get the a knowledge of the tools and what is possible, for image manipulation at least. But when we started editing images, I used Camera Raw as it is much faster and easier to edit images, without the need for layers, and only 'went into' Photoshop when needed. As Lightroom, as far as image processing is concerned, was/is basically the same as Camera Raw, people were also learning some of that, if they didn't already have it.

I would say, because Photoshop is so big, and and can be used for so many different tasks, learn the very basics, or if you think you are beyond that, find something you want to do in Photoshop that can't be done in Lightroom, or if it can, it can be done better in Photoshop, and learn as and when needed. I think most people only use Photoshop when they need to do something Camera Raw or Lightroom can't, or Photoshop can do it better. Even though some people will be paying for Photoshop because of the Adobe price structuring, many may not use it. :rolleyes:
 
It takes some time to master it and that's how it goes with complex tools. Practice makes perfect...

The main thing is to understand and get the feel of what layer blending modes do and learn the principles of non-destructive editing. The rest will follow with time as when you need it
 
Adobe is not the only tool in town!

PS is merely a generic like hoover when what's needed is a vacuum cleaner

You have the advantage that you won't have to unlearn the adobe way. There is a plethora of better and cheaper software with tools that are streets ahead of adobe. No package has everything and personal workflows and needs will dictate the best for you. Review the field with free trials before committing to a learning curve.
 
sk66 said:
The new search function in PS 2021 may be very useful for you... it's the search magnifier in the upper right corner of the interface. For instance I entered "blur" in the example image.

The first section is tools available to do blur with (notice the link to view all). If you hover over the link it will highlight where the tool is located, or you can click on it to activate it from the search results.
The second section is any applicable quick actions that can do it for you; activate them from the properties panel, or from the search results.
The third section is walk through tutorials on the topic.

View attachment 306240


Or you can use the help menu similarly to have PS show related tools/functions and highlight their location as shown here.

View attachment 306241
Click to expand...
Thanks, that's good to know
 
Ed Sutton said:
What do you hope Photoshop will provide that Lightroom can't?
Click to expand...
I don't hope I know, the PS clone tool is so much more functional, Content Aware Fill, luminosity and saturation masks. And I go beyond just tidying photographs, you can't do compositing, overlaying textures, etc. in LR
 
sirch said:
I don't hope I know, the PS clone tool is so much more functional, Content Aware Fill, luminosity and saturation masks. And I go beyond just tidying photographs, you can't do compositing, overlaying textures, etc. in LR
Click to expand...
Ah. You want to use it for cheating... :giggle:
 
I wanted to understand why I was clicking X, Y & Z in Photoshop. I do quite a bit of game modding, and PS is very useful for that, but almost every single time it's "Google it, and follow a tutorial" with no real understanding of what I'm doing or why.

I think those higher function things like (in my case ) Channel Masks have to be "follow and forget" for me because I simply don't use it enough. Layers and layer masking I got quite quickly, but there is a ton of stuff I don't go near. The search tool that Steven linked seems to be quite useful because I tend to get deeply involved in PS for a brief time then I don't go near it for months. And in that time, my brain just over-writes those memory cells with more useful stuff like "how not to make Mrs H angry today"...

I think you absolutely could do more with Photoshop, but I think it takes regular use of the program to do that. And for me - that 'aint happening any time soon.
 
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