Pixel Density and (cropped) IQ - D750 v D7100

BillN_33

BillN_33

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Bill
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If I am correct

with the D7100 you can get up to 24Mp on the image compared with up to 10Mp with the D750 in DX mode ….so if you are cropping the image to the same "size" the D7100 will always have over twice as many pixel on the image as the one from the D750

Presumably pixel density = fine detail

I shoot mainly birds and dragonflies with my DSLR and have the D7100 and D700 … plus a V1

As always you look at new equipment and think … should I upgrade?
I am trying to identify what are the most important aspects for my type of photography when upgrading and compare these with what I get from the equipment that I have versus the D610/D750/D810
Even the D810 only put 15Mp on a DX crop!

PP is getting better to handle high pixel density and at the end of the day it is glass that grabs the detail in

The D7100 DX sensor seems to have the highest pixel density of the Nikon DSLR's ….. am I going to get any better IQ and detail with say the D750 than with the D7100 ………… or am I missing something

Would be great to hear your comments
 
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Denser pixels means better lenses needed to resolve the detail. Smaller sensors mean the lens has to work harder to squeeze the detail onto a smaller area. Put more pixels into a smaller sensor and the lens has to be doubly good (if only it were that simple!) to resolve detail. Looking at MTF results for Canon lenses (I have no idea what Nikon are like) shows that the better longer lenses (i.e. 300mm+ primes) are designed to assume the sorts of pixel densities you get on FF sensors. I have absolutely no input to Nikon camera choice or lenses BTW :)
 
arad85 said:
Denser pixels means better lenses needed to resolve the detail. Smaller sensors mean the lens has to work harder to squeeze the detail onto a smaller area. Put more pixels into a smaller sensor and the lens has to be doubly good (if only it were that simple!) to resolve detail. Looking at MTF results for Canon lenses (I have no idea what Nikon are like) shows that the better longer lenses (i.e. 300mm+ primes) are designed to assume the sorts of pixel densities you get on FF sensors. I have absolutely no input to Nikon camera choice or lenses BTW :)
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Thanks Andy

Most of my DSLR shots are with the Nikon 300mm f4, 300mm f2.8 and 600mm f4 with/without Nikon TC's, the x1.4 and x 2

and even at the shorter end I use the 70 200mm f2.8VR and the 105mm f2.8VR

next purchase would be the 24 70mm f2.8

If we start with the approximate assumption that 1MP = 1MB - (but see later)

what I am also finding is that with the 600mm + TC14Ell I can get 9MB, (1MB = 1MP roughly), on the V1 image, (a 10Mp sensor) - I almost think the V3 would be a better addition with it's CX sensor and 18 MP's than any "new" DSLR over the D7100/D700 that I have …… although DXO say the IQ on the V3 is hardly any better than the V1 and don't seem to rate the V3 technically at all

I seldom shoot jpeg

But I suppose bigger MP's, (not the number but the physical size) can capture more information than small MP's ……… I think ………….then there is the confusion between MP's and MB's - I thought that the ratio was 1:1 but it's not really as some of the 24MP D7100 images are up to 30MB's
 
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Swanseajack said:
Maybe worth a read? Alan (@ woof woof) posted it on another thread discussing DX Vs FF for ISO. > https://photographylife.com/sensor-crop-factors-and-equivalence
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Thanks Simon

I realise the problem of "smaller" sensors …… I think the main one being getting enough light in

As I explained most of my images are cropped, sometimes heavily, so I'm reducing the FX señor size to a CX sensor size as a matter of course …….. and what I am researching is how to get as many pixels on the CX sensor size image and what pixel (physical) size will give me the best IQ - it is a different consideration to many who do not shoot birds and crop heavily - and I do not subscribe to the expression, "If you have to crop you are in the wrong place" - it may be applicable to a Leica with a 35mm lens but not to a bird that is some distance away flying over the middle of a lake or a raptor high in a tree

Basically others may say - just take images and "get on with it" - which I do most weeks - but I am quite interested in all this technical stuff ……. especially when thinking about spending money!!! …. as it stands I think that it will be another couple of lenses rather than a "body" upgrade …
 
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From my limited experience and what I have read on here that MP aern't so important, as in the case of the D700. To me sensor performance can be the key and If I'm honest, from my few days of using the D750 I prefer the output of the Fuji XT1 it replaced for JPEG's. But, I must say I have average glass on the Nikon until I save for a few months to buy the 300mm f4.

With bird photography to keep the detail isn't it better to be shooting at lower ISO, so wouldn't a D750 be much better than a V3 in this case as the sensor is a lot bigger and can gather more light? And will FX get the best out of your pro glass, the V1 wasnt really designed for this glass?

I have had 2 V1's (Clare liked them) and to be honest I wasn't over impressed with them, in particular compared to the D7000 & Fuji XE-1 I also had at the time. But I can see there uses with the x 2.7 crop factor.

At the end of the day you need to use what you want and feel comfortable with and if thats the V1 or V3, so be it, and if it gets you the results your happy with, thats what matters.

Also, can you use a TC on your 600mm lens to give you the extra reach say using the D700/750?
 
Thanks Simon

as my wife says, I need to get a job and stop buggering around going into the "nth" detail with all this camera stuff

but at my age I'm too old and this camera stuff is now part of my "job" ……… there's no change of me finding a "proper job" so I may as well b****r about

If you want to waste more time there is a free LR basic book on the following link - you have to register etc., but it may help …. I think that you may have asked about LR

http://www.lightroomqueen.com/free-ebook/lr5/
 
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Thanks Bill for the link.

I cancelled my CC subscription for LR & PS as I was finding it difficult to learn (I suffer short term memory loss from an illness I have) and I was also happy with the SOOC JPEGS from the Fuji. When I had the D7000 I found the Nikon software ok for my needs then and I was expecting the same with the newer software. I took about 300 photos yesterday in RAW and the software just loading them has done my head in! I will re-subscribe to the CC next week and try shooting in RAW again to try and get the best out of this camera. I will get Clare to help me with the software when she's off for Christmas.

I'm home allday and I am very guilty of over thinking things when it comes to camera gear, it's my little hobby and it keeps me sane just about! It's one of the reasons I have started to get into bird photography as we have a lot of them in our garden and I enjoy watching and photographing them and it helps to pass the time away untill Clare comes home.
 
Swanseajack said:
Thanks Bill for the link.

I cancelled my CC subscription for LR & PS as I was finding it difficult to learn (I suffer short term memory loss from an illness I have) and I was also happy with the SOOC JPEGS from the Fuji. When I had the D7000 I found the Nikon software ok for my needs then and I was expecting the same with the newer software. I took about 300 photos yesterday in RAW and the software just loading them has done my head in! I will re-subscribe to the CC next week and try shooting in RAW again to try and get the best out of this camera. I will get Clare to help me with the software when she's off for Christmas.

I'm home allday and I am very guilty of over thinking things when it comes to camera gear, it's my little hobby and it keeps me sane just about! It's one of the reasons I have started to get into bird photography as we have a lot of them in our garden and I enjoy watching and photographing them and it helps to pass the time away untill Clare comes home.
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Simon

You can buy a copy of LR for £50 to £100… IMHO it really is the way to start with image management and Post processing ….. I could not do without it - I think that I have 23,000 images in the Library - you can see them all instantly

PS6 is what will "do you head in"

LR is also very good as a system to manage and file all your images

Good luck

Bill
 
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I'm not into the MP/MB debate and I don't have and will be unlikely to get a D750 , it may be good but it's not what I want for the photography I do.
I come basically from 2 x D3S' and then switched one for a D800 ... the resolution in the D800 was startling, I was amazed at the definition and quality of the images that were cropped from a full frame.
Eventually I sold the D800 and got a D810, I wanted to keep the resolution that the 36MP gave but liked the idea of no filters ... when I received it I was not disappointed, the image quality was up another notch and cropped images were even better.
My only problem came when I tried to use my 400 f2.8 with a TC ... it simply wouldn't autofocus!
No problem on its own but no way would it AF with any TC fitted ... it was returned for replacement but the supplier was unwilling to replace it and issued an immediate refund.
Now I have no idea if the D810 has a problem with TC's and older non-VR lenses or if mine was faulty but I regret not being able to use it now ... I may just give another one a go now that my 400 f2.8 has gone.
 
gramps said:
I'm not into the MP/MB debate and I don't have and will be unlikely to get a D750 , it may be good but it's not what I want for the photography I do.
I come basically from 2 x D3S' and then switched one for a D800 ... the resolution in the D800 was startling, I was amazed at the definition and quality of the images that were cropped from a full frame.
Eventually I sold the D800 and got a D810, I wanted to keep the resolution that the 36MP gave but liked the idea of no filters ... when I received it I was not disappointed, the image quality was up another notch and cropped images were even better.
My only problem came when I tried to use my 400 f2.8 with a TC ... it simply wouldn't autofocus!
No problem on its own but no way would it AF with any TC fitted ... it was returned for replacement but the supplier was unwilling to replace it and issued an immediate refund.
Now I have no idea if the D810 has a problem with TC's and older non-VR lenses or if mine was faulty but I regret not being able to use it now ... I may just give another one a go now that my 400 f2.8 has gone.
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Thanks gramps……… I think if I were to upgrade …… that's the way I'd go, i.e. to a used D800 or D810 ……. that would probably suit what I think I need more than the D750 ……….. and for what I think I need the D610 would be as good as the D750, but I feel that I would find the articulated LCD screen very useful when the long lens is on a tripod ……….. Nikon throw all these difference functions into different bodies, just to confuse me.

You never get the chance to know until you buy the damed things ……… I have a cupboard full of bodies!!
 
BillN_33 said:
Thanks gramps……… I think if I were to upgrade …… that's the way I'd go, i.e. to a used D800 or D810 ……. that would probably suit what I think I need more than the D750 ……….. and for what I think I need the D610 would be as good as the D750, but I feel that I would find the articulated LCD screen very useful when the long lens is on a tripod ……….. Nikon throw all these difference functions into different bodies, just to confuse me.

You never get the chance to know until you buy the damed things ……… I have a cupboard full of bodies!!
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Just get a used D800 or D800e or spend more and get the D810 and use the damned thing.
 
ST4 said:
Just get a used D800 or D800e or spend more and get the D810 and use the damned thing.
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Not buying anything for another 8 days - so still got a few days to annoy you all
 
twist said:
Would the D610 AF be good enough for what you do, because thats one huge thing that sets it apart from the d750.
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Thanks Twist

I use single cell spot focusing 80% of the time ....... focusing on the birds eye ...... that's really were sharpness begins in a "bird image"

BIF are different ......... but again sometimes difficult to quickly change when you are set up

I am not in any way knocking the D750 ............I am trying to figure out what I need to improve on the D7100 ........ come come from a few years with the D300 and this year the D700 .......I much prefer the feel and UI of the D300/700 to the D7100 which I have had for a few years, I bought it for the bigger sensor as it was the only real upgrade to the D300 ......... I know that the D610/D750 still persist with the UI of the "cheaper" Nikons .....i.e. similar to the D7100 and back down the range
 
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BillN_33 said:
Thanks Twist

I use single cell spot focusing 80% of the time ....... focusing on the birds eye ...... that's really were sharpness beginning in a "bird image"

BIF are different ......... but again sometimes difficult to quickly change when you are set up

I am not in any way knocking the D750 ............I am trying to figure out what I need to improve on the D7100 ........ come come from a few years with the D300 and this year the D700 .......I much prefer the feel and UI of the D300/700 to the D7100 which I have had for a few years, I bought it for the bigger sensor as it was the only real upgrade to the D300 ......... I know that the D610/D750 still persist with the UI of the "cheaper" Nikons .....i.e. similar to the D7100 and back down the range
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Sounds to me like the D8xx is calling. I think ergonomics are very important to you and who wouldnt want more resolution for larger crops, Im guessing with BIF you can never have a long enough lens.
 
pingu666 said:
maybe a sd1 and 120-300 would be good?
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futurama-fry-meme-generator-not-sure-if-serious-or-joking-93dd48.jpg
 
Sd1 is the SLR one, with pdaf sensor and decent AF, and the 120 300 is a great lens

But you would need decent light still
 
pingu666 said:
Sd1 is the SLR one, with pdaf sensor and decent AF, and the 120 300 is a great lens

But you would need decent light still
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The 120-300 is great but the SD1 is not going to get anywhere near the cameras the Ops considering for what he wants to take photos of...

This is from DPReview...

The SD1's single biggest operational flaw is the length of time it takes to write files to the card. The SD1's Raw files are huge (typically 45-60 MB), and even with respectably fast media, the camera will take 15 seconds or more to write a single file. Most unfortunate, though, is the fact that certain button functions become either erratic or completely inaccessible while it's doing so.

Extremely slow file write speeds, with erratic control behaviour while writing
    • Poor image quality at high ISO, with green and purple colour blotching in shadows
    • Evaluative metering somewhat prone to highlight clipping
    • Overly-conservative highlight clipping warning (can encourage underexposure)
    • No Live View (which makes accurate manual focus harder than it could be)
    • Unimpressive AF compared to similarly-priced competitors
    • Twin controls dials largely wasted, with duplicate functions in all modes except M
    • Uncomfortably-placed ISO button
    • ISO not displayed full time in viewfinder
    • Camera does not achieve specified continuous shooting speeds (about 1 fps slower in our tests)
    • AB configuration position on drive mode dial locks all other functions, and prevents shooting
    • Sigma Photo Pro software is slow and painful to use, and lacks standard controls such as cropping, straightening and lens corrections

IMO it looks like Sigmas other compact cameras, landscape or studio use.
 
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Nikon rumours have started to appear again …. they seem to be releasing 2 or 3 new models a year … even a new DX body is being speculated by the rumour mill



D300 quality body, DX 24 MP "new" sensor, (no AA messing about), great low light performance, all the enhanced functions of the D750, but with a D800 UI …… you never know
 
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BillN_33 said:
Nikon rumours have started to appear again …. they seem to be releasing 2 or 3 new models a year … even a new DX body is being speculated by the rumour mill



D300 quality body, DX 24 MP "new" sensor, (no AA messing about), great low light performance, all the enhanced functions of the D750, but with a D800 UI …… you never know
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Have you got a link to said info Bill, could this be the long awaited D300 replacement many of us have been waiting for, or is it just another minor update on the D7100
 
rpsmith79 said:
Have you got a link to said info Bill, could this be the long awaited D300 replacement many of us have been waiting for, or is it just another minor update on the D7100
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Hi Rich - Nothing specific …….. but it looks like a replacement is planned for the D7100 …… my comments on a new D300 were just wishful thinking

Have a read at this ……. but you may have to use your imagination

http://nikonrumors.com
 
BillN_33 said:
Nikon rumours have started to appear again …. they seem to be releasing 2 or 3 new models a year … even a new DX body is being speculated by the rumour mill



D300 quality body, DX 24 MP "new" sensor, (no AA messing about), great low light performance, all the enhanced functions of the D750, but with a D800 UI …… you never know
Click to expand...

New cameras come out all the time, the D810 will do you fine.
 
BillN_33 said:
Hi Rich - Nothing specific …….. but it looks like a replacement is planned for the D7100 …… my comments on a new D300 were just wishful thinking

Have a read at this ……. but you may have to use your imagination

http://nikonrumors.com
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Ahh, i see, very much use of imagination then, haha

Even though i've only recently bought a D7100, i would upgrade at the drop of a hat if a D300 replacement came out

I started out with a D300 (loved this camera), then went to the D700 (great camera, just lacking in reach for what lenses i could afford), then to the D7100 (nice compromise, just lacking the build quality and UI/button layout of the D300/700, oh and the FPS too ;) )
 
ST4 said:
New cameras come out all the time, the D810 will do you fine.
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I'm an "old woman" Steve .. still back in the days of the D300 and I don't want to stop using the D700

I would go for the D800/D810 rather than the D750 …… for my type of shooting …….. I have shot quite a few images over 1/4000th sec ….. when you are set up for birds on Av it can easily happen … so I would want to retain the flexibility of up to 1/8000th sec, plus as you know I'm not a fan of the D600 UI .. plus plus.

But I have just been looking at new iMacs as I only have late 2009 models with 8GB ….. both laptop and desktop ……… which do slowdown with large 24MB files ……. so it's going to be costly … and I'm lining up all my pennies for Xmas ….. as I NEED, (so I tell my wife), a few other things
 
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rpsmith79 said:
Ahh, i see, very much use of imagination then, haha

Even though i've only recently bought a D7100, i would upgrade at the drop of a hat if a D300 replacement came out

I started out with a D300 (loved this camera), then went to the D700 (great camera, just lacking in reach for what lenses i could afford), then to the D7100 (nice compromise, just lacking the build quality and UI/button layout of the D300/700, oh and the FPS too ;) )
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same route as me Steve, but mine was D300, (great), D7100, (goodish, but sometimes disappoints), D700, (love it)


before that it was Pentax …… I looked at some old shots the other day, very low MP's ……. I was surprised how good the IQ was …..
 
BillN_33 said:
I'm an "old woman" Steve .. still back in the days of the D300 and I don't want to stop using the D700

I would go for the D800/D810 rather than the D750 …… for my type of shooting …….. I have shot quite a few images over 1/4000th sec ….. when you are set up for birds on Av it can easily happen … so I would want to retain the flexibility of up to 1/8000th sec, plus as you know I'm not a fan of the D600 UI .. plus plus.

But I have just been looking at new iMacs as I only have late 2009 models with 8GB ….. both laptop and desktop ……… which do slowdown with large 24MB files ……. so it's going to be costly … and I'm lining up all my pennies for Xmas ….. as I NEED, (so I tell my wife), a few other things
Click to expand...

I've got a MacPro - the old tower. 16gb ram. Quad core 1gb graffics card, its ok but slower with the 24mp files over thr 12mps when checking 100% view, but not really worse with the 36mps.

The 8x0 series is a delight to use on a tripod, in the hand and the cropability really is terrific. I tend to shoot different subject matter to you, but I rate the 8x0 series very highly.
 
BillN_33 said:
The D7100 DX sensor seems to have the highest pixel density of the Nikon DSLR's ….. am I going to get any better IQ and detail with say the D750 than with the D7100 ………… or am I missing something
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You have three different cameras with different sensor sizes and pixel densities... you should be able to answer the question for yourself. Does your V1 produce better images than your D700? Does your D7100 produce images consistently better than your D700? I'm quite certain the answer to both is no.

One thing about the high MP (resolution) sensors is that you don't see the resolution unless you're making use of it (i.e. larger display size). If you take those extra dots (pixels) and smash them down to display as one dot, you get one dot. Often you will get better IQ (for a given display size) from a larger sensor due to the lower MTF demands, and the higher contrast of the larger sensor (signal per pixel).

There are times where I can better/equal IQ from a D4 image cropped hard than I can from a D810 DX image. The D750 isn't a replacement for your D7100. It's an "in-between" upgrade to your D700 (some of the compromises of high MP and some of the benefits of FF/larger pixels).
 
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