Pixels - Are You Getting Enough?

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John
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Rather bizarrely, I'm going to start this article about pixel obsession with an analogy from the days of film, but hopefully you'll quickly see my point. The incident I recall happened way back in the late 'Eighties when I was a member of the youth section of a certain political party and, for our weekly meetings, we had a variety of speakers on a whole range of topics and interests. One week we had a member of the local camera club who was as dry as tinder and more boring than most politicians, which is saying something! Throughout his talk he described many of the “great” photographs he had taken but, curiously, didn't have one to show us!

Eventually, he droned on to the subject of did any of us own cameras and what type of pictures did we take. At last, the opportunity for a little audience participation, but he soon slapped me down when I announced I had an OM1 and used it mainly for landscapes. “Landscapes?” he uttered incredulously, “on 35mm? You should be using Medium Format for the superior quality young man!” I wasn't going to take that lying down so I asked him since when had Kodachrome 25 (this was pre Velvia days) been available in 120 format. “Colour landscapes?” he gasped, before rambling off on a tangent about the virtues of monochrome.

He obviously subscribed to the theory that a good big 'un always beats a good little 'un whereas I shared the opinion of many at the time that a good Kodachrome tranny was at least the equal of medium format (Kodachrome wasn't available in 120 at the time). The mentality of the More is Better brigade is resurrected today in the form of “More Pixels are Better” without any regard for other issues of image quality.

As a case in point, Canon are about to release the G10 compact with 14.7 million pixels. Canon engineers, no doubt, are fully aware that they could have made a far superior camera with “only” six or maybe eight mega pixels, but the marketing guys know that this wouldn't be enough to sell. Meanwhile, DSLR pixel counts are going through the ceiling of practical significance, to the point where the numbers are meaningless. Sadly, it's the perfect lever for persuading photographers to continually upgrade, leaving a trail of perfectly good but apparently obsolete cameras (some only months old) in their wake.

All this leaves me wondering, if a six million pixel camera is now considered virtually unusable for it's lack of quality due to a shortage of pixels, doesn't that now make all the pictures taken with that camera worthless as well? When we upgrade to get more pixels, shouldn't we delete all previous images from our hard drive on the grounds that they are no longer of sufficient quality? Of course not! A good quality 6MP image is still suitable for printing well beyond A4. Which raises the question, how big are we all printing now? And where are the enthusiasts who are all jumping on the 24MP bandwagon storing their 30 x 20 inch prints? Their walls are only so big, after all.

And regarding quality, I bet a 6MP G10, if there was such a thing, would comfortably out-perform the 14.7MP version, as would an Olympus E1 or Nikon D70! It's time to deal with our pixel addiction, before we all become as boring as the old man with his invisible medium format monochrome landscape prints!
 
Hmm, i'm finding it hard to understand what you mean goldenlight

The bigger the pixal count, the bigger you can print the picture you produce with that camera. You know when you see a billboard with a picture on it? just think how clear it would look with a decent sized sensor :D

Tony
 
As long as those nasty engineering boffins take noise in to count the the more pixels the merrier. It means that as pixels increase my lens gets longer for equivalent pixel shots :)
 
Hmm, i'm finding it hard to understand what you mean goldenlight

The bigger the pixal count, the bigger you can print the picture you produce with that camera. You know when you see a billboard with a picture on it? just think how clear it would look with a decent sized sensor :D

Tony

I take your point, Tony. But I've never printed to billboard size and can't envisage that I ever will. How many have you done? :D
 
I was happy with 5mp printing A3+ prints. All i wanted was less noise and more dynamic range.

Blame the manufacturers not the public they produced the hype to sell their gear
 
Goldenlight im sure I have read this same thread somewhere else.

Is Goldenlight your TP alias ? ;)
 
Erm, coming up to my 1000th now :lol:

Nah but you get what i mean :lol:

Chance would be a fine thing, eh? ;)

But if I was in that happy position I'd no doubt invest in a Medium Format (or even Large Format) camera with digital back. Or at the very least a Canon EOS1DSMk3 - with reservations.

Why reservations? Well, if it was a low light billboard image requiring high ISO I believe I'd still be better off with a Nikon D3 with "only" 12 million pixels.

I appreciate in that arguement there is a fine line, but 14 million pixels in a compact? Why on earth should we want that amount of theoretical resolution for print sizes we are never realistically going to produce from a compact? Especially when you consider all the IQ issues this needlessly introduces at more realistic print sizes.

Even the new 15MP EOS50D may have "pushed the (resolution) envelope too far" according to Barney Britton in this week's AP. What point is a 15MP camera that produces inferior IQ to a 10 or 12 MP camera?
 
Goldenlight im sure I have read this same thread somewhere else.

Is Goldenlight your TP alias ? ;)

You may have seen me around.....;)
 
i recently upgraded from two 6mp cameras to a 12 mainly because even though 6mp is fine generally after a crop it can get a bit iffy :)
 
i recently upgraded from two 6mp cameras to a 12 mainly because even though 6mp is fine generally after a crop it can get a bit iffy :)

Don't get me wrong, 12MP is currently fine on a DSLR but I would rather have a 6MP compact which was actually usable above ISO200!

And I wouldn't turn down more pixels if it wasn't detrimental to IQ and the price was affordable.

Come to think of it, I might have one or two images that would look quite nice on a billboard! :D

Nah, I'm just commentating on the state of play as I see it at the moment.
 
I'm still shooting exclusively with my 6mp Nikon D50, had plenty of enlargements done, A3 spread in a magazine etc, never had any complaints. I find it a perfectly usable size considering I have no ambition to sell my images any more, if anything it keeps life easy by being kind to my ageing computer, and being much quicker to upload to my storage space.

The only reason I'm hoping to upgrade soon (D90) is much better high ISO performance, the lovely 3" LCD and the fact that it's nearly twice as fast (fps), the additional 6mp isn't even a consideration, I would be just as happy with 6 or 8.

I nearly spat out my tea when I read that a Samsung 14.7mp compact existed, amusing to think there is a compact out there with well over twice the resolution of my camera...I mean, why?! I can only imagine the enlargements I could get out of mine will still be massively superior.
 
I totally get where your coming from Goldenlight.
Why are the "boffs" at Canon trying to pack in MP and video modes into their new cameras when there are plenty of other "issues" that they could be dealing with, like the 5d focusing issue (never used one, just heard people moaning about it, and the MKii having the same af issue).

Its because normal, every day people are of the opinion that the more the merrier. When you see an advert on tv for a p&s camera in a sale, its usually along the lines of...

"Get this xxx 8mp camera for under..."

...so are making people believe that the more mp the better, when really, they wont print anything over 7x5s! Haha!
 
Goldenlight, the same goes for absolutely every consumable item these days.

I find it disturbing that most people will buy something because of what the manufacturer will tell them.
 
I was having this discussion yesterday at work...
My current camera of choice is the Canon 1dmkII at a lowly 8mp... A friend at work has pre-ordered a Sony C905 camera with an 8mp camera built in, so he was telling me to sell my big stupid camera and replace it with a camera phone. Some people, unfortunately, think that the number of MP actually has some bearing on the image quality, and that the lens, size of sensor, quality of sensor, pixel density and photographer has nothing to do with it.
 
i recently upgraded from two 6mp cameras to a 12 mainly because even though 6mp is fine generally after a crop it can get a bit iffy :)

Ah you should have saved your money and gaffer taped the two together, then stitched the two resulting photo's together...:D
 
It comes down to public perception, most of us have washing machines I expect, few if any of us use more than two programs on them but would any of us buy a washing machine that had only two programs on it?

Camera manufacturers sell cameras to make money and they do that best by selling to the unwashed masses, not by selling to a few hundred thousand semi literate amateurs. Since the perception in the minds of the unwashed masses is that more = better, more = better.

That said, the speaker in goldenlights' op was correct in saying that large format is/was better for landscapes, goldenlight made a basic mistake when comparing large format negative to more pixels on a sensor. If you set up two cameras today, a digital medium format and a dslr to take the same shot, the medium format image would (all things being equal) be the better shot. More pixels on a larger sensor = good all round, more pixels on a smaller sensor = maybe not so good for image quality but good for sales..
 
As long as those nasty engineering boffins take noise in to count the the more pixels the merrier. It means that as pixels increase my lens gets longer for equivalent pixel shots :)

No it doesn't!
 
I`m happy with my D300, it does what I need and a lot more that I don`t need. We are our own worst enemies for wanting the latest gear,the manufacturers know this and prey on it.

Who actually uses all the functions on thier camera? How many of us genuinely need 29.75 gozillion pixels?
 
No it doesn't!


yes it does !!!

ish ;)

it allows you to crop your image and still get the pixel resolution of your "old low pixel " camera

if you crop a 10M pixel image down to a 1M pixel image it's giving you a lot of digital zoom BUT it's still giving you the same quality as the 1M old camera.


Obviously it depends on the resolution of your glass :)
 
A friend at work has pre-ordered a Sony C905 camera with an 8mp camera built in, so he was telling me to sell my big stupid camera and replace it with a camera phone

Its ya mate thats stupid, he obviously knows nothing about photography:cuckoo:
 
yes it does !!!

ish ;)

it allows you to crop your image and still get the pixel resolution of your "old low pixel " camera

if you crop a 10M pixel image down to a 1M pixel image it's giving you a lot of digital zoom BUT it's still giving you the same quality as the 1M old camera.

So it's allowing you to enlarge your images more, but that's nothing like making your lenses longer.
 
So it's allowing you to enlarge your images more, but that's nothing like making your lenses longer.

It's not making your lens longer glass-wise but your getting 'X' amount of extra reach due to extra pixels before you get image degradation.


If that makes sense :shrug:
 
So who can tell me roughly what the approximate Mp value in 35mm negative film would be? I have read once that i is around 20-22...

Yes, I know digital images are cleaner and lack the film grain but when it comes down to pure resolution in 35mm format film, how many Mp's would that frame be worth.

Also, someone said earlier here that MF film should be superior to 35mm digital...go have a look on the luminous landscape for comparisons...most lens reviews show it. A very close call if digital is not superior IMHO

Personally I am very happy with my cameras...I cannot afford bigger or better for a few years anyway:bonk:
 
I have a D3 really don't see how i could ever need more than the 12mp. Espically with the full frame sensor. I think the market for the 20+ mp cameras is pretty limited anyhow
 
^Yep, agree^

If I could put my 5D sensor into my 1Ds Mk II I think I would have the perfect camera for what I do mostly.
 
for large/medium format the digital back stuff offers some use but on an slr 20+ is really pushing it's usefulness vs OMG GOT NO MEMORY CARD SPACE LEFT ness :)
 
The trend of the last year or so seems to be that better processors and circuitry are supposed to improve the signal to noise ratios and thereby cutting down noise and producing better images.

As much of a Canon fan as I am, Nikon has done a few things right lately and 12Mp on FF in their flagship camera could not have been too much of a mistake I think.
 
I think Nikon have really shown what you can do with 12mp and a decently put together camera. Many people were surprised when the D3 was launched and had the same mp. as the D300 until they saw the images that were being produced. Unless your shooting fine art i really don't see the need for any more, espicially if its coupled with a decent sensor, processor etc etc.
 
It's funny - but I recently read an article on Hasselblad's latest 31mp MF as being something Wedding togs will start to use now it's only £10,000

I've never had an album put together that has had an image in it at full native resolution from my 12mp Nikons as each page would be almost A3 in size

I have had canvasses at 30x40 and the quality was fine

Why any Wedding tog would 'need' 31mp is beyond me - but will some buy it for the 'better IQ' - damn right they will :cuckoo::cuckoo::cuckoo:

DD
 
I think Nikon have really shown what you can do with 12mp and a decently put together camera.

Yup, they copied what Canon did with the 5D:D:D:D



OK, but seriously, IF this improved processor / lowered noise hype is to believed I would believe that up to about 20Mp is the sensible limit.

Anything more than that is pure marketing madness IMHO and 12 Mp in FF is absolutely fine for most pros' needs.

Does anyone here really think that more than 10% of ALL prints worldwide are bigger than jumbo?
 
It's funny - but I recently read an article on Hasselblad's latest 31mp MF as being something Wedding togs will start to use now it's only £10,000

I've never had an album put together that has had an image in it at full native resolution from my 12mp Nikons as each page would be almost A3 in size

I have had canvasses at 30x40 and the quality was fine

Why any Wedding tog would 'need' 31mp is beyond me - but will some buy it for the 'better IQ' - damn right they will :cuckoo::cuckoo::cuckoo:

DD

Nope! Some will buy it purely to impress their photography-illiterate clients and demonstrate that they are a "real" photographer! :gag: :lol:
 
Nope! Some will buy it purely to impress their photography-illiterate clients and demonstrate that they are a "real" photographer! :gag: :lol:

Do you really think people would know or care about the difference?;)

I have come accross many folks down here (photographers, all of them) who don't appreciate the difference between a 20D with a grip and a 1D.

Customers surely don't...whether it is a gripped 350D or a 1D they say ooohh, thats a big camera...

Would be terrible to fork out that amount of money on something and no-one appreciates the bragging rights, don't you think?:bonk:
 
Do you really think people would know or care about the difference?;)

I have come accross many folks down here (photographers, all of them) who don't appreciate the difference between a 20D with a grip and a 1D.

Customers surely don't...whether it is a gripped 350D or a 1D they say ooohh, thats a big camera...

Would be terrible to fork out that amount of money on something and no-one appreciates the bragging rights, don't you think?:bonk:

You'd think so, wouldn't you? But I know a wedding tog who has been asked "how many pixels" would he be shooting. Personally, I'd ask "can I see your portfolio please," but I guess it takes all sorts! :bang:
 
I'm not the least bit interested in pixel count. In fact, when I use my D40, I set the image size to "medium" as default (which is about 3 mp, I think).
Why do I do that? Because 99.9% of my shots are always used for displaying on the internet, I then would have to resize the image for just that purpose. On account of that, I have this thing where if I would have to resize a large 6 mp to a 150 kp one, a lot of pixels gets thrown out in the process = a loss of detail and obvious "jagged edges" on straight lines.
Even with a 3 mp image, I could still do a lot of cropping with it and get away with it.
A camera with 12 mp and above would just be overkill for me. I'd much rather pay over the odds for lens and sensor quality than high pixel count.
As for printing? I never/very rarely do any printing on account of how much ink cartridges do cost. I'm a farmer on low wages and to me printing is an unneccessary luxury. If I do produce a killer image that I really want to save for the rest of my natural life, I'll take it to a shop that does print outs.
 
On account of that, I have this thing where if I would have to resize a large 6 mp to a 150 kp one, a lot of pixels gets thrown out in the process = a loss of detail and obvious "jagged edges" on straight lines.
Even with a 3 mp image, I could still do a lot of cropping with it and get away with it.

I'm not sure I understand this.

Jagged edges are a symptom of aliasing, where your sample rate is too low for what you are sampling. For instance if you have a smooth edge at an angle one pixek is inside the edge, one outside so you get a jagged "stairstep" effect instead of the smooth edge. One technique to get rid of the effect is super-sampling. Where effectively you take a much higher res picture and resize it down so the final output pixels rather then just being "inside" the edge and "outside" the edge, end up a blend of the 2 colours.

When you set your camera to a lower res thats exactly what the camera is doing. It doesnt change the size of the sensor, the sensor still captures at the exact same size the camera just resizes that image down before storing it to the memory card. The same operation that you would do on the PC to resize for web. The only advantage of doing it on the camera is that the image gets smaller sooner so you can fit more on the card. Hoever you can get more advanced algorithms for the PC than the camera can manage to you could actually get a better output result than the camera can do.
 
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