Plastic Spools Doing My Head In!

wibbly

wibbly

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Anyone any clues how to get film on a plastic spoil in a dark bag quicker than the 20 minutes I’ve just spent fighting with it?!

I’ve practiced plenty out of the dark bag with no issues... but each time I have to do it for real I end up in a sweaty mess with the impending doom of thought that I'm just going to ruin the film!

Are the metal spools I've seen somewhere any better/easier to get 35mm film loaded onto?
 
I really couldn't get on with metal spools, drove me mad.
What make of spool are you using and is it 35mm or 120? I find, especially with 120, that when I've got it onto the reel it pays to pull it through for an inch to make sure it's gripped.
 
Well any dampness due to sweat can make it more difficult with a plastic spool, also any residue from chemicals. I used to pull the film into the spool as far as I could then slowly wind the rest backwards and forwards very slowly so the film is properly gripped,. 36 exposures were the worst but found 120 film easier.
 
kendo1 said:
Do you trim the leader to make it easier?
Click to expand...

Yes, the leader is trimmed
Andysnap said:
I really couldn't get on with metal spools, drove me mad.
What make of spool are you using and is it 35mm or 120? I find, especially with 120, that when I've got it onto the reel it pays to pull it through for an inch to make sure it's gripped.
Click to expand...

All 35mm. It’s just so frustrating that I can do it without issue when practising but once it goes into that black hole of a dark bag it just seems to become so much more impossible to do easily!
 
Going back many, many years. I couldn't get on with a dark bag, but found I was fine in a properly dark room, with everything laid out on a table in front of me.

Completely agree with Brian that any dampness was just a disaster, so used to leave the spools on the radiator before use for an hour or so.
 
How about a rigid film changing box or one of those collapsible tents rather than a bag? The boxes turn up on ebay, or there are various DIY instructions using taped up cardboard boxes and elasticated sleeves cut from clothing. The collapsible tents tend to be a bit pricey for what they are, but might be worth the investment.
 
I find the Jobo spools better than the Paterson ones for 35mm. The Jobo spools don't have the ball bearing and they have a recess in the sides so that you can get you fingers on the edges of the film all the way down the spool and ease it round. That said more often than not I get 35mm on to the Paterson spools without a problem.

My hunch is that, apart from sweat/dampness making the emulsion sticky. not having everything in line is a cause of problems. When you can see it it much easier to make sure the film is going on to the spool straight, when in the bag it is harder to tell if the film is at a slight angle to the spool. I tend to hold the spool so the entry point is vertical, i pull out a foot or so of film from the can and try to keep it directly below the spool, I hold the spool as high as the bag will allow and make suse my little fingers to detect when the can is approaching the spool at which point I pull out more film. Try to keep the axis of the spool horizontal and the film/can free hanging so it isn't entering the spool skewed.
 
Personally, I find the main issue is when the metal ball bearings get stuck in one position, and this is what usually stops me getting the film onto the plastic reels in under a minute or so. Make sure they are both free to rattle around just before trying to load the film. Otherwise, make sure they are otherwise clean and free of roughness etc... other than that, it's just practice :)
 
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I reuse my cannisters for bulk rolling, so I bought a leader extractor thing so I could load the film without damaging the can. The benefit to this is that you can get the leader started in daylight, then place the whole thing carefully in the dark bag and finish off in the dark. I find this much easier than fiddling in the dark to get the film started. You can get the leader out with a blob of spit and an old bit of film, but the extractor tool is much easier.

I tend to find the the difficulty of getting it on the reel is proportional to your worry/fear.
 
I haven't loaded a developing tank for donkey's years, but I had a Paterson Universal when I was a kid. I never tried loading the spool in a dark bag but I can't remember any problems with 35mm or 120 in a completely dark room, or the walk in hall cupboard at night. It does sound as if the bag is causing your problems for some reason or another. Can you find an alternative, such as suggested in the thread? Good luck!
 
While I managed ok with the Paterson reels that came with my tank, I bought an AP reel a few months back and find this much easier to load - both 35mm and 120. It has a much longer lip to slide the film into the slots.

One of these: https://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/ap-developing-tank-reel/p824 (you can get them from other places too)
 
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I'm assuming that you are trying this with a Paterson tank and reel. Make sure that the reel is clean and absolutely dy. After you've trimmed the leader square, cut the corners at 45 degrees by at most 2mm and the push the first 2 sprocket holes' worth of the film beyond the steel balls on the reel; you can do that outside the bag. Then put the reel in the bag, close it and start winding very gently by turning the opposite flanges to and fro until 360 degrees worth of film is on the reel. You can then be a bit more vigorous but not too rapid. I do this can can a whole 36 frame film wound on without any trouble.
 
Practice with a old roll of film not in the changing bag , Cut a lead in on each side of the film
 
Buy the AP reels, always wear gloves as the moisture off your hands will make the film sticky. For 35mm always nip off the corners after cutting across the leader. Clean and dry your reels and make sure the locking balls are free.

Look at this on eBay
www.ebay.co.uk

AP Self Feed Spiral / Reel - 35mm/120/220/127 - Fits AP, Paterson, Kaiser Tanks 8420233213008 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for AP Self Feed Spiral / Reel - 35mm/120/220/127 - Fits AP, Paterson, Kaiser Tanks at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.
www.ebay.co.uk
 
wibbly said:
Yes, the leader is trimmed


All 35mm. It’s just so frustrating that I can do it without issue when practising but once it goes into that black hole of a dark bag it just seems to become so much more impossible to do easily!
Click to expand...

And clip the leading edge corners, or even round them off?
 
Harlequin565 said:
I reuse my cannisters for bulk rolling, so I bought a leader extractor thing so I could load the film without damaging the can. The benefit to this is that you can get the leader started in daylight, then place the whole thing carefully in the dark bag and finish off in the dark. I find this much easier than fiddling in the dark to get the film started.
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As Ian says, you can get the film started on the reel in daylight before putting it in the bag, and most times you won't even lose a single frame.

20180207_163606_resized.jpg
 
Peter B said:
As Ian says, you can get the film started on the reel in daylight before putting it in the bag, and most times you won't even lose a single frame.

View attachment 299070
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This has been suggested a couple of times elsewhere, thanks for your photo. Definitely going to try this route on my next roll.
 
Are you using a wetting agent like Photo Flo or C41 stabiliser? If so, avoid exposing your reels to it because it can reduce the 'slipperiness' of them over time which makes film loading a nightmare. If you think that may be the problem, try giving your reels a really good scrub with a toothbrush and diluted bleach, then rinsing them in hot water. And as others have said, make sure they're bone dry before loading.
 
Can I ask what is your camera? Is it an Auto focus, point and shoot, or a pure manual? If it is the latter, most of them EXCEPT the later Nikon (F301) or Canon (T70) and one or two more which I cannot recall at the moment, your film will have been wound onto the take-up spool which gave it a reverse curl. (Emulsion side will face outwards) This is an absolute pain to deal with. The reverse curl creates more friction in the spirals which can make loading a spiral a real problem to overcome. My answer was to rewind the film into the cassette and leave it there for a couple of days so the natural curve is restored. Not ideal if you need to process the film fairly quickly.

I eventually went onto central loading, but with AF I went back to a Jobo tank.
 
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FujiLove said:
Are you using a wetting agent like Photo Flo or C41 stabiliser? If so, avoid exposing your reels to it because it can reduce the 'slipperiness' of them over time which makes film loading a nightmare. If you think that may be the problem, try giving your reels a really good scrub with a toothbrush and diluted bleach, then rinsing them in hot water. And as others have said, make sure they're bone dry before loading.
Click to expand...

Yes I use a wetting agent as a final rinse although I do rinse the reels well after use.

darkroom12 said:
Can I ask what is your camera? Is it an Auto focus, point and shoot, or a pure manual? If it is the latter, most of them EXCEPT the later Nikon (F301) or Canon (T70) and one or two more which I cannot recall at the moment, your film will have been wound onto the take-up spool which gave it a reverse curl. (Emulsion side will face outwards) This is an absolute pain to deal with. The reverse curl creates more friction in the spirals which can make loading a spiral a real problem to overcome. My answer was to rewind the film into the cassette and leave it there for a couple of days so the natural curve is restored. Not ideal if you need to process the film fairly quickly.

I eventually went onto central loading, but with AF I went back to a Jobo tank.
Click to expand...

Leica M6. Not sure if the film winds back the wrong way to give it a reverse curl!
 
Harlequin565 said:
Nope.
Click to expand...

You appear to have misunderstood, it is when the film is wound onto the take up spool it is then that it incurs a reverse curl. You can tell when it is wound back into the cassette if it isn't wound in fully, the leader will tend to curl away from the cassette and not naturally curve around the cassette. If it does that the film is wound on with a reverse curl.

Leica in the pre war days had a developing tank that did not have a spiral, You fixed the film to a central clip and wound it onto the core with what they called a 'correx apron' which was a flexible strip of clear plastic a little longer than a 36 exp film. the The edges of the correx apron was slightly corrugated which kept the film apart and ensured the developer reached all parts. It was a good and simple design which never gave any problems.
 
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wibbly said:
Yes I use a wetting agent as a final rinse although I do rinse the reels well after use.
Click to expand...

Definitely give them a really good scrubbing before trying to load one again, or better still, buy a new reel. It made a big difference when I ditched the used reels and ones I'd exposed to stabiliser, and bought new ones.
 
I’ve not had a problem since I swapped to Joni reels from Paterson years ago. I used to remove the ball bearings from Paterson reels which improved them a little but Jobo reels are the best I’ve used.
 
Chuck them away and use stainless steel centre loading spirals. They can not stick.
 
FujiLove said:
Definitely give them a really good scrubbing before trying to load one again, or better still, buy a new reel. It made a big difference when I ditched the used reels and ones I'd exposed to stabiliser, and bought new ones.
Click to expand...
I use wetting agent/stabliser on the reels and don't really have problems loading but out of interest how do you wash/stablise without the spiral to keep the film separated?
 
Get a cheap toothbrush and wash the reels in hot water after you’ve used them and leave them to dry. I’ve even used a hairdryer on them before to make sure all the moisture is gone. Weirdly I’ve found that 35mm goes on no problem but 120 can cause me the biggest issue.
 
@wibbly I'm not sure you'll be much further forward after the variety of replies above, but it confirms that we all have our favourites that work well for us as individuals.

I've always used Ilford Ilfotol as my wetting agent and don't have problems with Paterson reels, but I always force-wash them in the tank while the reel is still wet after I've removed the film, then hang them up to air dry. I see Kodak Photo-Flo mentioned as an alternative to Ilfotol, and was wondering whether that might be a different formula that gives greater problems? :thinking:
 
If the wetting agent proves to be the cause if the problem then perhaps remove the film from the spiral after washing and then pass it through tray/ bowl of wetting agent solution.
 
Kodak Photo-flo is far more concentrated than the Ilford equivalent and must be fully diluted. I use Photo-flo and always slightly over dilute rather than the other way. I will also confess that every so often I soak my spirals and other tank components in diluted bleach overnight. 2 tablespoons in 2 gallons of water is what I look at. Then when the boss isn't looking they also go into the dish washer.

As I mentioned before it is only with films that are used in my manual focus cameras that wind the film on with in a way that gives it a reverse curl.
 
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sirch said:
I use wetting agent/stabliser on the reels and don't really have problems loading but out of interest how do you wash/stablise without the spiral to keep the film separated?
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I put the wetting agent in a tub and loop the film through it manually by holding each end.
 
I'm late to this particular discussion, but one tip I found very helpful was to remove the film from the canister and wind it on to my Paterson reel from the other end to the leader. It seems to help a lot with that problematic last 20 cm or so.
 
I'm even later in on this but here's my ten penneth.
Sweaty hand problem I can relate to particularly with changing bags.
My way to improve the situation was to make a square wire frame out of coat hangers to fit in the bag.
This stopped the bag itself from collapsing and allowed air to move around my hands.
 
Retune said:
How about a rigid film changing box or one of those collapsible tents rather than a bag? The boxes turn up on ebay, or there are various DIY instructions using taped up cardboard boxes and elasticated sleeves cut from clothing. The collapsible tents tend to be a bit pricey for what they are, but might be worth the investment.
Click to expand...
I skim read the post and did not realise I had paraphrased your work.
Sorry.
 
Since my last post, I developed a film for the first time in ages and had a bit of a mare getting my 35mm film onto the plastic reel, when I thought I had my technique pat. I have since given the reel a darn good wash, but I've also taken another look at the way the reel behaves in daylight. I have noticed that if you tend to press inwards from either side as you are reeling (and the harder I'm struggling, the more likely this is), the film is actually trapped by the reel sides causing buckling and friction. Next time, I shall make sure I am gently pulling the reel halves apart as I swivel them to eliminate this. Maybe a design flaw, or maybe there are miniscule differences in 35mm film widths?
 
Stegosaurus said:
Since my last post, I developed a film for the first time in ages and had a bit of a mare getting my 35mm film onto the plastic reel, when I thought I had my technique pat. I have since given the reel a darn good wash, but I've also taken another look at the way the reel behaves in daylight. I have noticed that if you tend to press inwards from either side as you are reeling (and the harder I'm struggling, the more likely this is), the film is actually trapped by the reel sides causing buckling and friction. Next time, I shall make sure I am gently pulling the reel halves apart as I swivel them to eliminate this. Maybe a design flaw, or maybe there are miniscule differences in 35mm film widths?
Click to expand...
Are you moving both hands at once? I hold the left side steady and use the right hand side to draw the film onto the spiral, so no chance of pressing inwards on the reel. Just a thought. :thinking:
 
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