Pricing

A

A_S

Messages
576
Name
Andrew
Edit My Images
Yes
This might be one for the business and commercial forum but a few times recently (Since getting back into my motorsport photography) I've been asked to sell some photos from rallys.

I am wondering what sort of pricing structure would be the norm. I've sold digital only full res JPGs for £5 and that seems to be the going rate but just looking for some advice to make sure I am in the right ball park.

I.e what is a good pricing structure and size (pxls/WxH etc) for social media use, printing, website, commercial etc. From there I can probably work out a tiered structured approach with some room for negotiation etc.
 
A_S said:
This might be one for the business and commercial forum but a few times recently (Since getting back into my motorsport photography) I've been asked to sell some photos from rallys.

I am wondering what sort of pricing structure would be the norm. I've sold digital only full res JPGs for £5 and that seems to be the going rate but just looking for some advice to make sure I am in the right ball park.

I.e what is a good pricing structure and size (pxls/WxH etc) for social media use, printing, website, commercial etc. From there I can probably work out a tiered structured approach with some room for negotiation etc.
Click to expand...
I should think that those who have asked you to sell ought to be able to answer your query.
 
A_S said:
This might be one for the business and commercial forum but a few times recently (Since getting back into my motorsport photography) I've been asked to sell some photos from rallys.

I am wondering what sort of pricing structure would be the norm. I've sold digital only full res JPGs for £5 and that seems to be the going rate but just looking for some advice to make sure I am in the right ball park.

I.e what is a good pricing structure and size (pxls/WxH etc) for social media use, printing, website, commercial etc. From there I can probably work out a tiered structured approach with some room for negotiation etc.
Click to expand...
Not sure how this works for rallies, but for circuit racing this is very much not allowed, Even signed on as a media photographer you're not allowed to directly sell your images to competitors. Not saying people don't do it, just be careful
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: A_S
RichardC27 said:
Not sure how this works for rallies, but for circuit racing this is very much not allowed, as the circuit owner / promoter technically owns the copyright to any images taken at the event. Even signed on as a media photographer you're not allowed to directly sell your images to competitors. Not saying people don't do it, just be careful
Click to expand...
Circuit is private property though so I think they can make those demands, a rally (and I may be wrong) is held on public roads isn't it?
That being said, there will still be recognisable property (cars) and people (drivers) so to sell commercially you'd really need a release form, that's the case for stock site anyway..

I guess it may be different dependant on who you're selling to.

I was at the British Grand Prix at Silverstone this year and got some great panning shots of all drivers, I've sold quite a few prints on Etsy, just searching Etsy it's clear I'm not the only person doing this. :)
 
RichardC27 said:
as the circuit owner / promoter technically owns the copyright to any images taken at the event.
Click to expand...
This is incorrect.

For copyright purposes photographs are covered by Section 4 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. Section 11 states that "The author of a work is the first owner of any copyright in it". Therefor, the photographer always owns the copyright unless (under section 11.2) he is acting as an employee, in the course of his work, in which place the employer owns the copyright.

If the site owner does not wish pictures to be taken, they have a right to exclude photographers beforehand and the right to eject them later. Such ejection may only be done using reasonable force and they have no right to take property from its owner or insist that pictures be deleted, It's not even certain that they could obtain an injunction to force deletion of the images after the event, which would in any case be a very expensive excercise.

It would help if, before providing misleading information, people spent a few minutes using a search engine and researched the subject.
 
RichardC27 said:
Not sure how this works for rallies, but for circuit racing this is very much not allowed, as the circuit owner / promoter technically owns the copyright to any images taken at the event. Even signed on as a media photographer you're not allowed to directly sell your images to competitors. Not saying people don't do it, just be careful
Click to expand...

AndrewFlannigan said:
This is incorrect.

For copyright purposes photographs are covered by Section 4 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. Section 11 states that "The author of a work is the first owner of any copyright in it". Therefor, the photographer always owns the copyright unless (under section 11.2) he is acting as an employee, in the course of his work, in which place the employer owns the copyright.

If the site owner does not wish pictures to be taken, they have a right to exclude photographers beforehand and the right to eject them later. Such ejection may only be done using reasonable force and they have no right to take property from its owner or insist that pictures be deleted, It's not even certain that they could obtain an injunction to force deletion of the images after the event, which would in any case be a very expensive excercise.

It would help if, before providing misleading information, people spent a few minutes using a search engine and researched the subject.
Click to expand...

Do I recall reading about "terms of entry" to an event and photography there. Where there is a prohibition on the taking of photographs and/or with the purpose to sell them???
 
Box Brownie said:
Do I recall reading about "terms of entry" to an event and photography there. Where there is a prohibition on the taking of photographs and/or with the purpose to sell them???
Click to expand...
Entirely possible. However, as I explained above, the only recourse of the site owner is to refuse entry or ask the photographer to leave if s/he is already on site. In the latter case, the site owner could try bringing a civil case of some sort against the photographer but for that to succeed they'd have to show some actual (not theoretical) loss. Any use of force in the matter, unless they could show it was both necessary and reasonable, would be a criminal matter, if the photographer chose to pursue it.

All this is available from the gov.uk site if you choose to look for it.
 
Thanks for all the advice so far.

I don’t think there were ever any problems doing such when I did some accredited work back when I was at uni 15 or more years ago. This was before the social media era though and everything sold was for teams to use as hard copy promo material.

Anyway, Irrespective of the debate over legalities what would those with experience suggest?

I do know a few semi pro circuit photographers who suggested upto £20 a photo depending on use, but they work for professional companies in international series and have contracted customers, therefore a slightly different scenario.

I’m thinking social media use £5 at a given dpi/ h x w

Print maybe - 10-15 full image source jpg

I just don’t want to under sell myself.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
This is incorrect.

For copyright purposes photographs are covered by Section 4 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. Section 11 states that "The author of a work is the first owner of any copyright in it". Therefor, the photographer always owns the copyright unless (under section 11.2) he is acting as an employee, in the course of his work, in which place the employer owns the copyright.

If the site owner does not wish pictures to be taken, they have a right to exclude photographers beforehand and the right to eject them later. Such ejection may only be done using reasonable force and they have no right to take property from its owner or insist that pictures be deleted, It's not even certain that they could obtain an injunction to force deletion of the images after the event, which would in any case be a very expensive excercise.

It would help if, before providing misleading information, people spent a few minutes using a search engine and researched the subject.
Click to expand...
It's entirely correct. As a spectator, there is a disclaimer in the programme and in the terms and conditions you agree to when buying a ticket, saying any photos or videos recorded at the event remain the property of the promoter, and commercial use is prohibited. I worked as an accredited photographer for many years, and there is also a strict prohibition on commercial use there as well. Indeed MSV are cracking down hard on this currently, where accredited photographers as selling images without their permission. You sign on for editorial use, it's a totally different process for commercial use. As I said, I'm unsure how it works for rallies, I've never shot one properly and they are usually on public / somebody elses land so the process maybe different. So my information isn't from 5 minutes on Google, it's from attending and photographing hundreds of race meetings, both as a paying spectator and as an accredited media photographer.
Hanley said:
Circuit is private property though so I think they can make those demands, a rally (and I may be wrong) is held on public roads isn't it?
That being said, there will still be recognisable property (cars) and people (drivers) so to sell commercially you'd really need a release form, that's the case for stock site anyway..

I guess it may be different dependant on who you're selling to.

I was at the British Grand Prix at Silverstone this year and got some great panning shots of all drivers, I've sold quite a few prints on Etsy, just searching Etsy it's clear I'm not the only person doing this. :)
Click to expand...
Now, how much this is enforced is another matter entirely. Silverstone are generally more chilled out than MSV about pretty much everything, although I'm sure if F1 got wind of that sort of thing on Etsy they'd crack down on it if they felt it was worth their while.

I'm not saying people don't do it, they absolutely do and 9 times out of 10 nothing happens.
 
Last edited:
RichardC27 said:
It's entirely correct. As a spectator, there is a disclaimer in the programme and in the terms and conditions you agree to when buying a ticket, saying any photos or videos recorded at the event remain the property of the promoter, and commercial use is prohibited. I worked as an accredited photographer for many years, and there is also a strict prohibition on commercial use there as well. Indeed MSV are cracking down hard on this currently, where accredited photographers as selling images without their permission. You sign on for editorial use, it's a totally different process for commercial use. As I said, I'm unsure how it works for rallies, I've never shot one properly and they are usually on public / somebody elses land so the process maybe different. So my information isn't from 5 minutes on Google, it's from attending and photographing hundreds of race meetings, both as a paying spectator and as an accredited media photographer.

Now, how much this is enforced is another matter entirely. Silverstone are generally more chilled out than MSV about pretty much everything, although I'm sure if F1 got wind of that sort of thing on Etsy they'd crack down on it if they felt it was worth their while.

I'm not saying people don't do it, they absolutely do and 9 times out of 10 nothing happens.
Click to expand...


I would seriously stop commenting if I were you, because you clearly do not understand copyright law.

What an organiser may claim and what is reality are two different things.
 
DemiLion said:
I would seriously stop commenting if I were you, because you clearly do not understand copyright law.

What an organiser may claim and what is reality are two different things.
Click to expand...
Perhaps copyright was the incorrect word to use. However, it still breaks the terms of entry. I'm not saying it's always enforced, because it isn't. Circuits require you to have published work before they'll accredit you, and the only way to do that starting out is to get published from the spectator areas, which breaks their own disclaimer around image use. I was simply offering advice from a point of experience.

I've sold images to drivers myself. I was merely saying be careful as technically you're not allowed to do it.
 
RichardC27 said:
"as technically you're not allowed to do it".
Click to expand...
The first thing is, as Mark said, you were absolutely wrong about the copyright and it doesn't help when people spread misinformation.

The second thing is that terms and conditions of entry may be very difficult, or indeed, virtually impossible to enforce, especially those which (as an example) claim ownership of copyright in defiance of statutory law. In particular, if they conflict with CMA guidance ( https://assets.publishing.service.g...ta/file/450440/Unfair_Terms_Main_Guidance.pdf) attempting to enforce them could land the claimant on the wrong side of a CMA investigation.

The third thing is: when in a hole stop digging. :naughty:
 
Last edited:
AndrewFlannigan said:
The first thing is, as Mark said, you were absolutely wrong about the copyright and it doesn't help when people spread misinformation.

The second thing is that terms and conditions of entry may be very difficult, or indeed, virtually impossible to enforce, especially those which (as an example) claim ownership of copyright in defiance of statutory law. In particular, if they conflict with CMA guidance ( https://assets.publishing.service.g...ta/file/450440/Unfair_Terms_Main_Guidance.pdf) attempting to enforce them could land the claimant on the wrong side of a CMA investigation.

The third thing is: when in a hole stop digging. :naughty:
Click to expand...
At least you've taken the time to explain rather than just telling me I'm wrong...
 
Right now we have settled that - any chance of moving this back on topic and getting some opinions on pricing structures?
 
I’d offer that £5 was very low end for a full res file in the current times. I’ve not sold any rally photos in well over 7 years, but even back then I was doing print ready tiff with jpg for socials for £20. With discounted pricing for multiple. I never did high volume but turned over quite a few over a number of years.
I’d suggest £25 per shot wasn’t unreasonable, if you’re offering a solid product.
 
  • Like
Reactions: A_S
Hi Andrew - are you sitting down. . . . THIS is what the London Freelance Guild suggest (I am def losing out lol) It also has sections on copywrite rights etc etc which may be useful for others.

David.
 
David Stallard said:
Hi Andrew - are you sitting down. . . . THIS is what the London Freelance Guild suggest (I am def losing out lol) It also has sections on copywrite rights etc etc which may be useful for others.

David.
Click to expand...


Apart from being completely out of date and largely immaterial nowadays, the London Freelance Guide would completely irrelevant for this type of photography.
 
DemiLion said:
Apart from being completely out of date and largely immaterial nowadays, the London Freelance Guide would completely irrelevant for this type of photography.
Click to expand...

Can't see a date - OP basically asked about freelance pricing so I put up a link to. . . . freelance pricing, Thought it would be useful, "Sorry"
 
David Stallard said:
Hi Andrew - are you sitting down. . . . THIS is what the London Freelance Guild suggest (I am def losing out lol) It also has sections on copywrite rights etc etc which may be useful for others.

David.
Click to expand...

Thanks, anything is helpful. I'll have a look at some stage, its going to take a bit of reading :p
 
If your not sure maybe try experimenting a bit to find where the sweet spot is and what people are buying them for? For me what you’re suggesting is on the low end even for social media. I’d ask a lot more for full res - at that price for a big print the photo is costing a fraction of even the frame. @KIPAX may be able to help more.
 
Thanks. I just need a structure I think and to know what the market dictates
 
TimHughes said:
If your not sure maybe try experimenting a bit to find where the sweet spot is and what people are buying them for? For me what you’re suggesting is on the low end even for social media. I’d ask a lot more for full res - at that price for a big print the photo is costing a fraction of even the frame. @KIPAX may be able to help more.
Click to expand...


Mine (mostly field sports) slightly different to motorsport.. i am guessing... as my customers will buy multiples and very rarely just one.. same with high res .. I also know I will gte quite a few custoimers.. . Lots of customers buying multiples .. thus low pricing gets me the amount I need to earn from a sporting event... I am guesisng motor sport is a bit more limiting therefore prices need to be higher

I charge the same price for a social media and a print as to be fair they can print a social media file and still look good (i actually push SM files as 7x5 printable) . I then charge a little more for full size but not much... the majority buy social media size....... surprisingly people do still want prints and i get a lot of 7x5 print sales

So Social media and print = same price £3 / £6 after early bird
high res print your own = little higher £5 / £7 after early bird
group or team pics £15 for file no different for prints
multiples = no discount

what really works and made a big difference when i introduced it was the early bird system.. prices are what i need for early bird but aftre 7 days they go up slighlty.. this pushes people to buy now rather than mean to do it later but forget

poeple (photogrpahers haha) look at my prices and often comment too cheap... But many customers buying multiple is the key for me :)
 
Last edited:
KIPAX said:
. I am guesisng motor sport is a bit more limiting therefore prices need to be higher
Click to expand...


Sadly, almost certainly not. So many 'photographers' are desperate for access that 90% of them hand their images over for nothing.

Making money, unless you have an exclusive access arrangement such as for track days, is virtually impossible.
 
DemiLion said:
Sadly, almost certainly not. So many 'photographers' are desperate for access that 90% of them hand their images over for nothing.

Making money, unless you have an exclusive access arrangement such as for track days, is virtually impossible.
Click to expand...


But i meant more that people wouldnt buy as many.. (IF you can find a customer) I presume more likely to buy one.. not half a dozen at a time ?
 
KIPAX said:
But i meant more that people wouldnt buy as many.. (IF you can find a customer) I presume more likely to buy one.. not half a dozen at a time ?
Click to expand...


Pretty much the opposite if you cover multiple corners.

I did a couple of sessions for a bike specialist at Silverstone and the emphasis was on packages with multiple shots - the top earner being a CD with all of the images (25-50).

If nothing else it proved that I was a cr@p motorsports photographer and need to stick to slower stuff....


...like galloping horses!!
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top