Probably been asked a thousand times

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As per title, probably been asked a thousand times already, but..

How do you go about getting media accreditation in motorsport, i have been shooting at oulton park for the last couple of weeks and feel i would have much better chances of better photos from the right sides of the fence, better angles mainly as its quite hard to get the angles i actually want to get because of the barriers in the way, i understand every photographer will be thinking this but would still like to know the answer to my question, please. :thinking:
 
In a nutshell...
Work in the motorsport media.
It's called "Media Accreditation" for a reason.
Just because you have a camera, and think you can take alright photos doesn't give you an entitlement to just go where you think you should be allowed to go just because you want better shots.

Now, here's the long version...

I've posted this here and several times elsewhere on other forums - people are probably sick of seeing it, and I guess it was only a matter of time before I ended up posting it here - again.

It's essentially related to motorsports photography but the principles are the same for any sport.
It's a bit long, I know, but It covers most things you probably need to know and, dare I say, it tells it like it is, for which I make no apologies.

A quick few words about my background.
I started my motorsport photography over 20 years ago when I stopped competing in rallies.
The biggest problem I and fellow competitors had back then was getting pics of ourselves.
When I finally parked the rally car, I still wanted to be involved. I picked up the camera and started taking pics at club level events to national championship level from spectator areas and selling them to competitors.
After a while I started submitting to a couple of motorsport magazines. It took a while but eventually, after about 3 years, I started getting some images published and then it snowballed from there to the point where I was able to get accreditation.
Today, I cover all types of motorsport and supply several magazines and agencies with images. I have also covered a number of different sports and events for image libraries including Federation Cup Tennis, International Netball, Wrestling, Pro Golf, AFL Football, International Soccer, Pro Cycling and several other sports and events.

A couple of questions you need to ask yourself...

Firstly, what is your reason for wanting media credentials.
Are you a member of the media?
What can you give the organisers by your presence?

Media creds are usually only given to WORKING media. This means people working for and supplying bona fide media outlets ie: Magazines and newspapers and other recognised media outlets such as websites and press agencies.
I’ve been shooting sport, mainly motorsport for over 20 years, and still do club level and grass roots sports.
I supply several magazines and newspapers as well as photo agencies.
I often get asked…
"How do I get a pass to shoot from where you are?”
My reply usually goes something like this…
“How long have you been photographing (insert name of sport) and what outlet do you work for?
To which they reply something like…”Oh I never do. I just want to get in and shoot from where you are. I’m just taking photos for myself” and if you're reading this, it probably means you've asked the very same or very similar question.
Ask yourself this…
If you’ve never taken a photograph of a Football (substitute for any sport) game, would you approach the FA (again substitute relevant organization) and say to them “Hey Mr FA Media Man, I’ve never taken a photo of a soccer match before but I think I’m a pretty good photographer, I’m not shooting for anyone except myself so you won’t get any publicity but can I have a media pass for the FA Cup Final…"
Seriously, what do you think they would say.
It would probably be cool to be there and you’d get off on it and brag to your friends, but seriously…
Unless you are working media, why should you be there.

Media credential's ARE NOT a free pass to get in to an event.

Admittedly, sometimes I have seen some people with creds who probably shouldn't have them - and people who probably should have them who don't - most of the time however it's not for me to make that decision.
I do sympathise with people who wish they could get creds for events and can't.
Event organizers are after publicity. You shooting for yourself does not give them that publicity and they do not have an obligation to give you a media pass just because you think you should have one. It is up to you to justify why you should be accredited.
Remember that the 'togs you see shooting at a track or sporting event etc are being paid by somebody therefore IT IS A JOB. They are not there for the fun of it.
Imagine if somebody came into your work place and thought it looks like cool job, do you think they'd just be able to start doing what you were for the fun of it?
Also, there is a whoooole lot more to it than just standing by the track and taking photo's. There are deadlines (sometimes very short) to meet and as a rule I would suggest that for the same amount of time spent trackside there is at least 1/2 to 3/4 of that time to be spent on editing, sending images etc when the day at the track has finished. If you spend 8 hours at the track, then you will usually spend another four to six hours, at least, once you have left the track on editing etc.
Not to mention arguing with editors about what to send and when etc...

I attend a lot of events where I don't have creds so I do know what it's like from behind the fence or in the bleachers, but I still manage to get good and sometimes great images.
It makes you see things differently and find different angles and ways of shooting.
I'd estimate that about 50% of events I go to, I don't have the magic press pass and pay to get in like everyone else.
Sometimes I'm just there for being there, and sometimes it might be a sport I've never shot before but want to see what it's like. Occasionally I do manage to sell some images.
Also, just because you have good gear doesn't mean you should be there either.
I've seen some 'togs with basic DSLR's and kit lenses take some better stuff than guys with 1D's and white lenses (and Nikon equivalent). I occasionally use a 400D with the 10-22 lens and have had those images published. I also use a sigma 10mm fisheye.
In closing, I will say this...
THERE ARE NO SHORT CUTS.
If you want to have creds for big events, start shooting the grass roots of that sport (no it's not glamorous like the big events - but you'll probably make more money) and start supplying images to publications etc.
This is a great way to get yourself known to event organisers. They learn to know who you are and that you are committed to photographing their sport and being known is half the battle. This is not going to take 5 minutes and may take several years, yes... I did say years.
To do this you need to have passion for both the sport and your photography.
You must be prepared to put up with the elements, rain, hail, shine, and depending on the hemisphere, maybe snow (not generally an issue in Australia) etc etc.
Just like any job, sometimes it will NOT be fun and just plain hard work.
It just depends on how hard you are prepared to work to get there.

Except when learning to swim, always start at the bottom.
I see too many people trying to start right at the top. It doesn't work that way.
The only thing you start from the top is digging a hole.

Apologies if this appears blunt and straight to the point, but it's the reality of it.
 
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Thank you for your reply and you don't need to apologise for your reply :). (y)
 
Barriers would still be in the way if you were accredited. You can't just stand anywhere even with a media pass and often once you have got to a location you are there for that race at least. There seems to be this myth that you can only get good shots by being trackside, not true, you just need to look at things differently.

Lets be honest 10 photographers all on the outside of Lodge corner will basically all get the same image. Whilst someone in the Grandstands will have a very different perspective
 
Oulton Park is probably the easiest circuit I have been to to take close to the track shots as fencing is minimal. Try Silverstone, lol
 
Barriers would still be in the way if you were accredited. You can't just stand anywhere even with a media pass and often once you have got to a location you are there for that race at least. There seems to be this myth that you can only get good shots by being trackside, not true, you just need to look at things differently.

Lets be honest 10 photographers all on the outside of Lodge corner will basically all get the same image. Whilst someone in the Grandstands will have a very different perspective

Be fair, i never said you needed to be trackside to get good shots but it does open up possibilities and a different perspective doesn't necessarily mean better does it.

If there was no advantage to being trackside then why would anyone want to be there? For the vests? :p

Oulton Park is probably the easiest circuit I have been to to take close to the track shots as fencing is minimal. Try Silverstone, lol

I hear you and you are correct, i was surprised when i first went and realised how close you can get to the racers and the lack fences.
 
i would agree with most of what phil said, but not all of it.. there are definitely short cuts to getting a media pass. Start a FB page called 'motorsport is great' and then call yourself media.. its been done before, and for the same reason you want media accreditation.
 
i would agree with most of what phil said, but not all of it.. there are definitely short cuts to getting a media pass. Start a FB page called 'motorsport is great' and then call yourself media.. its been done before, and for the same reason you want media accreditation.

Any chance of telling me how and why you got media accreditation, I'm sure it would be interesting or maybe even helpful. :)
 
Any chance of telling me how and why you got media accreditation, I'm sure it would be interesting or maybe even helpful. :)

i started up a FB page.. :)
just joking

i started by asking a guy who ran a champ car website if he could get me a free ticket to a race (when they came to brands hatch). he said yeah so long as you take some photos for me.
so i did, and they were crap, but then i decided i wanted to do better. So I did some stuff for various media, and now I do lots of stuff for lots of outlets.

got to say that i didnt do it to get closer to the cars, because a) they can kill you b) i didnt know how to use a camera or care less about photography. In fact on race day, I didnt take any pics because I didnt want to stand next to the track, I wanted to sit with my friends. But if you do a crap job, you want to learn to do it properly so i did.
 
You say "i have been shooting at oulton park for the last couple of weeks", do you mean your total time of trying to photograph there is a couple of weeks? I haven't been to Oulton but I wouldn't imagine that you could exhaust all of the possibilities available from the spectator side of the fence in two weeks.

I've been going to Croft for three years and I still find a new angle (or a tweak to an old angle) occasionally or I see a photo someone else has taken that's different to any of mine - and I bet there are people who've been going much longer than me who find the same.
 
i started up a FB page.. :)
just joking

That's me screwed, I don't use facebook. :nuts:

i started by asking a guy who ran a champ car website if he could get me a free ticket to a race (when they came to brands hatch). he said yeah so long as you take some photos for me.
so i did, and they were crap, but then i decided i wanted to do better. So I did some stuff for various media, and now I do lots of stuff for lots of outlets.

got to say that i didnt do it to get closer to the cars, because a) they can kill you b) i didnt know how to use a camera or care less about photography. In fact on race day, I didnt take any pics because I didnt want to stand next to the track, I wanted to sit with my friends. But if you do a crap job, you want to learn to do it properly so i did.

Well i already have an (slight) idea of how to use my camera, i enjoy photography, i have suicidal tendencies :bonk: and don't have any friends so i wouldn't be suffering from your initial problems. :D

Cheers for the reply. (y)
 
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You say "i have been shooting at oulton park for the last couple of weeks", do you mean your total time of trying to photograph there is a couple of weeks? I haven't been to Oulton but I wouldn't imagine that you could exhaust all of the possibilities available from the spectator side of the fence in two weeks.

I've been going to Croft for three years and I still find a new angle (or a tweak to an old angle) occasionally or I see a photo someone else has taken that's different to any of mine - and I bet there are people who've been going much longer than me who find the same.

Correct, i have only been going for a couple of weeks and i didn't say i had exhausted all possibilities.

Its just that i can see some decent opportunities if i could get directly behind the barriers or maybe towards the end of the barriers (i'm not sure if this is allowed, before someone tells me you cant), the problem i find with oulton is that you are quite close to the track, so are always directly behind a barrier which means that you can never get low down to take any shots.

I am also wondering why there would be so many media photographers at a small club meeting, the last one i went to wasn't exactly the best event i have been to.
 
As I said earlier Barriers will still be in the way, low down photography unless using a remote camera (and even that needs to be safe ie won't fly through the air and hit somebody) is very much frowned upon as you can't move as quickly.

But hey if you want to get better photographs, lets all go trackside. It may seem sarcastic but you must appreciate that it is dangerous and the more people trackside particularly those looking at it from a very limiting view (ie through a viewfinder), place themselves and others at greater risk. Using "accredited media" is at least one way of limiting the number.
 
Munch, what side of the fence do you shoot from??

EDIT: never mind, i just read some of your posts and you don't seem to be happy about people being trackside, at least you seem to be a caring soul, you care about everyone's safety a lot according to your posts.
 
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Some questions.

Who, in the UK, allocates the acreditation?
Who sees your photographs?
Do they like them?

From personal experience I was invited to shoot trackside by a competitor, who was also on the commitee that organised some "grass roots" events, after seeing some of my photographs taken from the spectator areas.
Keep in mind that there is some responsibility that goes with the pass. ie, to always provide photographs no matter what the shooting conditions are like and irrespective of any gear failure (Have a back up plan). Also it is dangerous and sometimes you may shoot somethings you wish you had never seen.
 
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I very rarely shoot any motorsport events, because I am usually there as a marshal or in some other official capacity. Having attended photographers/camera crews who have been hit by vehicles/debris then you can perhaps see where I come from on this subject.
 
Some questions.

Who, in the UK, allocates the acreditation?

In the UK it is usually the circuit that handles the accreditation process but sometimes it is the visiting series that does this - or a collaboration between the two.

During the process you have to demonstrate that you have had work printed, either in a journalistic role or as photographer, depending on what you are applying for, as well as the support of an editor of a suitable publication - usually newspaper or magazine.

The OP doesn't realise how lucky he is if his local circuit is Oulton Park, one of the best circuits in the country for spectator side photography - it could be Rockingham.
 
to be blunt though, i'd be very careful trying the 'i want a media pass because i want to get in front of the fence' approach.. I've seen people try it before and get totally eaten alive on forums by professional motorsport photographers. Normally the threads are locked before theyve made two pages :)
 
I am also wondering why there would be so many media photographers at a small club meeting, the last one i went to wasn't exactly the best event i have been to.

- racing press - Autosport / Motorsport News (same publishing company but not always the same photographer)
- photographer for local/regional newspapers
- photographer for circuit
- photographer for race organisers
- photographer for each race series
- photographer for particular drivers and their local press
- plus photographers for various other media outlets.
- plus chancers
- plus videographers filming races for TV

Whilst one photographer may carry out more than one particular duty, its easy to rack up a number of people who have a reason to be there.
 
You don't see people complaining that they could get better photos of a Premier League match if only they could get to be the on the sidelines.
They just accept they can't and that's the way it is.

Why is it that they seem to think motorsport is so different?
It's not.

I really like test and one day cricket and could get better pics if I was shooting on the other side of the fence with the other accredited photogs, many who are mates, but I'm not supplying anyone with images.
I'm not WORKING MEDIA at that event and therefore have no right, and certainly no entitlement to be there.
As a result, I just get what I get from where I'm sitting.
 
Some questions.

Who, in the UK, allocates the acreditation?
Who sees your photographs?
Do they like them?

From personal experience I was invited to shoot trackside by a competitor, who was also on the commitee that organised some "grass roots" events, after seeing some of my photographs taken from the spectator areas.
Keep in mind that there is some responsibility that goes with the pass. ie, to always provide photographs no matter what the shooting conditions are like and irrespective of any gear failure (Have a back up plan). Also it is dangerous and sometimes you may shoot somethings you wish you had never seen.

Thank you for the reply (y)

In the UK it is usually the circuit that handles the accreditation process but sometimes it is the visiting series that does this - or a collaboration between the two.

During the process you have to demonstrate that you have had work printed, either in a journalistic role or as photographer, depending on what you are applying for, as well as the support of an editor of a suitable publication - usually newspaper or magazine.

The OP doesn't realise how lucky he is if his local circuit is Oulton Park, one of the best circuits in the country for spectator side photography - it could be Rockingham.

Cheers for the info, but this was part of what lead me to ask the question, there is no way that all of the togs with vests on at some of the club series at oulton are all working for newspapers or magazines, there cant be that much interest in (if any at all) 250cz's etc..

to be blunt though, i'd be very careful trying the 'i want a media pass because i want to get in front of the fence' approach.. I've seen people try it before and get totally eaten alive on forums by professional motorsport photographers. Normally the threads are locked before theyve made two pages :)

Cheers for the heads up, though i only asked a simple question, more out of curiosity than anything else, i wasn't aware you lot were such sensitive souls. :)

- racing press - Autosport / Motorsport News (same publishing company but not always the same photographer)
- photographer for local/regional newspapers
- photographer for circuit
- photographer for race organisers
- photographer for each race series
- photographer for particular drivers and their local press
- plus photographers for various other media outlets.
- plus chancers
- plus videographers filming races for TV

Whilst one photographer may carry out more than one particular duty, its easy to rack up a number of people who have a reason to be there.

Thank you, so you can get trackside if you are there to photograph an individual rider/driver? would that go for trackdays as well?

You don't see people complaining that they could get better photos of a Premier League match if only they could get to be the on the sidelines.
They just accept they can't and that's the way it is.

Why is it that they seem to think motorsport is so different?
It's not.

I really like test and one day cricket and could get better pics if I was shooting on the other side of the fence with the other accredited photogs, many who are mates, but I'm not supplying anyone with images.
I'm not WORKING MEDIA at that event and therefore have no right, and certainly no entitlement to be there.
As a result, I just get what I get from where I'm sitting.

Thanks for your input, but again, i didn't complain, i asked a simple question, it seems you all (most) have a pre conceived train of thought, why so defensive? if i have no right to be trackside then surely it wouldn't happen and i wouldn't get accreditation.
 
Thank you, so you can get trackside if you are there to photograph an individual rider/driver? would that go for trackdays as well?

Depends on the series, depends on the location of the event, depends on how many photographers they want and already have.

There isn't a one size fits all answer, its a complicated set of circumstances.

The one piece of solid advice I can offer is to get something published - once you have that initial piece of evidence you can display, the doors start opening up.

If you find a lot of photographers maybe defensive, you need to understand that there's only so much oppurtunity and a million people who want to take it.

Usually the main thing which sets the winners apart from the rest though is tenacity and reliability - don't give up, keep angling and when you commit to doing something for someone, execute it to the finish - even if half way through you discover its raining/boring/your gf is moaning. You also need to be self resilient and self organised - this isn't by and large team work or even sociable!

Lastly, if you enjoy spending the odd hour doing this in between working and a home life, its probably not for you either - early starts, late finishes, long weekends, lots of travelling, little reward unless you perceive the reward being the job itself...
 
Thank you, so you can get trackside if you are there to photograph an individual rider/driver? would that go for trackdays as well?

Yes, but you need the support of an editor of a publication who is planning on using those pictures - so local newspaper etc for a driver or rider within that papers area.

Trackdays are different - firstly they're non competitive so its not a news worthy item for the sports pages, so a local rag won't be interested. You need to talk to the organiser of the trackday, who will almost certainly have event photographers in place, possibly with exclusivity agreements to be the sole people trackside.

The other option is to ask track day photographers if they want another snapper, but you will be working for them and you probably won't get to keep any of the photos you took whilst working for them.

You'll also need insurance, but that is the easy bit to sort out.

Basically, if you want to get trackside, you need to come up with a reason to be there, that the circuit or race series agrees will be beneficial to them, and not because you want some different angles.
 
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Alot of jargon to read through and frankly its gets a pretty boring subject

These days there are so many people wanting an life of carrying a camera and shooting sports, motorsports etc that its hard work to gain any notification for your work, im not saying photography is easy it isnt!! Like others have said long drives, hours away from home, editing etc

You need to look at your work and compare to what the great photographers have turned out, is it really good enough?? To stand out you need to see a completely different angle an perspective to everyone else and make yourself stand out!!
Be persistant with editors as its easy to send an email that they dont really read properly, but turn up on a door step and say you want to talk to them and have a portfolio of your work to hand to let them look at!!

Over time and what ive read and heard is that alot of photographers who have been shooting for years have kinda had an easier life getting into jobs, unlike now as its such an sort after career!!

I shoot a few weddings a year aswell as full time work and part time jobs and have happy customers, also sold rally images to happy people so not all is bad but if you want it bad enough fight for it ad make people want you
 
desantnik, andrewc & big dave hull, thank you for your input (y)

and yes i am sounding like a grumpy old man :)

An honest 1 at least. :)

Like others have said long drives, hours away from home, editing etc

None of which would bother me tbh.


You need to look at your work and compare to what the great photographers have turned out, is it really good enough?? To stand out you need to see a completely different angle an perspective to everyone else and make yourself stand out!!

I am new to this so i doubt my work does compare yet, but i am fairly confident i could produce some good work given enough time, :whistle: and access to track side. :D:exit:
 
I've said it loads of times, the quality matters not one jot to get the pass. If you are good enough to get someone editorially to back you then you are away...
 
Contrary to popular belief you don't really have to be a good photographer.

So dosnt that just go against what someone else's essay above says!! Surely been a good photographer is the whole point because then it shows that agencies etc are employing quality not people who havnt a clue
 
Take a look at a broad spectrum of printed motorsport shots, see what you think...

It's of course a matter of what they choose from what you send them of course, but....

It's rare to see something that would attract praise on here....
 
So dosnt that just go against what someone else's essay above says!! Surely been a good photographer is the whole point because then it shows that agencies etc are employing quality not people who havnt a clue

yeah, hence my use of the word 'contrary' :)

the thing i hear a lot of, is people with £6k huge lenses, sitting punterside and getting annoyed that there are people with point and shoots and photographer's tabards when they think they should be there instead.
a local news journalist who's brought the office camera with him is going to give the series much more publicity than any punter however good they are.
 
yeah, hence my use of the word 'contrary' :)

the thing i hear a lot of, is people with £6k huge lenses, sitting punterside and getting annoyed that there are people with point and shoots and photographer's tabards when they think they should be there instead.
a local news journalist who's brought the office camera with him is going to give the series much more publicity than any punter however good they are.

Like you say it dosnt give them a right to be there it just means they have a bigger bank balance then others!! Alot of work these days is down to who you know and word of mouth

I have a diploma in photography but dosnt mean il be offered every job i apply for
 
My very quick route into accreditation came from attending anything and everything locally, simply because I wanted the practice. Some of those 'anything and everything' events happened to be sprints organised by a local club, I was literally the only spectator half the time! The club found my images online and asked me to shoot events for them.

The other route was kind of similar, I would attend everything open to the public on a weekend at Castle Combe, it didn't take long for their media dept to notice (particularly as mentioned above, it was often just me and a few others there) and ask me to shoot for their website and social media specifically.

Route three...a weird one, sharing my Festival of Speed images on Flickr, noticed by two supercar manufacturers, asked to work for them.

None of that would have happened if I didn't want to be there, practicing panning for 8 hours in heavy fog, ridiculous rain, blazing sunshine etc. The accreditation offers were just an offshoot of that, not the reason I was there.

The irony is I fairly quickly turned away from all of it, I really don't get the fascination with everyone wanting to be trackside personally, particularly shooting to spec. I shoot for fun, I wouldn't want to ruin that. However if you really want it, in my experience you need to research everything happening and find something different, rocking up to BTCC events all the time is unlikely to get you anywhere.
 
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Personally I think they should be a lot more stringent with doling out the passes. Seems daft having swarms of photographers in the same location at an event, particularly when you consider that even a series like the BTCC will probably only have about a dozen or so different photos published in the media.

Surely with so many paying photographers in the audience it would be easier just to change the ticket t&cs and let people sell these pictures to media outlets and do away with trackside photographers entirely.

If you want to get trackside, volunteer as a marshal.
 
You can sell/"provide" your images taken public side to the media for editorial use already.

There are plenty of people who have done this and continue to do this.

The main reason for "trackside" access is the same reason as you put press photographers in the pit for a concert - to enable them to have the best possible chance of access to get an unobstructed view of the proceedings. Their job is to effeciently get the image which will publicise the event.

Its all about efficiency, from having a clear clean view to the publication having reliable people who will deliver the editorial requirements.

The number of people the event choose to accredit is down to them - some race series believe any publicity is good publicity, others tightly control the applications to only the best connected prolific journalists. Whichever it might be, its not a free for all - if you want to prove me wrong, try applying!
 
My very quick route into accreditation came from attending anything and everything locally, simply because I wanted the practice. Some of those 'anything and everything' events happened to be sprints organised by a local club, I was literally the only spectator half the time! The club found my images online and asked me to shoot events for them.

The other route was kind of similar, I would attend everything open to the public on a weekend at Castle Combe, it didn't take long for their media dept to notice (particularly as mentioned above, it was often just me and a few others there) and ask me to shoot for their website and social media specifically.

Route three...a weird one, sharing my Festival of Speed images on Flickr, noticed by two supercar manufacturers, asked to work for them.

None of that would have happened if I didn't want to be there, practicing panning for 8 hours in heavy fog, ridiculous rain, blazing sunshine etc. The accreditation offers were just an offshoot of that, not the reason I was there.

The irony is I fairly quickly turned away from all of it, I really don't get the fascination with everyone wanting to be trackside personally, particularly shooting to spec. I shoot for fun, I wouldn't want to ruin that. However if you really want it, in my experience you need to research everything happening and find something different, rocking up to BTCC events all the time is unlikely to get you anywhere.

Thank you for your helpful and friendly input. :clap:

I've been meaning to reply for a while, i can be quite forgetful. :wacky:

I'll keep a lookout for any events happening around my area, don't think there's too much going on round these parts though (Cheshire/Manchester areas) :shrug: if anyone knows better feel free to let me know. (y)
 
Is there likely to be a any resident photographers at the smaller events, club days, track days etc? at Oulton.

You can sell/"provide" your images taken public side to the media for editorial use already.

There are plenty of people who have done this and continue to do this.

The main reason for "trackside" access is the same reason as you put press photographers in the pit for a concert - to enable them to have the best possible chance of access to get an unobstructed view of the proceedings. Their job is to effeciently get the image which will publicise the event.

Its all about efficiency, from having a clear clean view to the publication having reliable people who will deliver the editorial requirements.

The number of people the event choose to accredit is down to them - some race series believe any publicity is good publicity, others tightly control the applications to only the best connected prolific journalists. Whichever it might be, its not a free for all - if you want to prove me wrong, try applying!
 
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Well, track days as someone else said aren't newsworthy (and have commercial retail photographer coverage) and yes, pretty much every event will have a handful of folks already involved.
 
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