Beginner Problems with Noise & ISO - Should I Upgrade my camera, or my Lens ?

gothgirl

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If I am having Problems with Noise & ISO - Should I Upgrade my camera, or my Lens ?

This is my scenario,

I do a lot of shooting (handheld - tripods / monos are not a possibility) in low light, where I cannot use flash

* I use the lowest shutter speed that I can, to still freeze motion, usually 1/200 - 1/160

And the highest ISO I can, 1200 / 1600

I get a LOT of noise, and someone warned me this would be a problem with my camera (Canon 40d) before I bought it, but at the time I Did little / no low light shooting so this did not bother me.

My Kit consists of
Canon 40d
Canon 18-55 (Non IS)
Canon 55-250 IS
Canon 50mm 1.8 Plastic Fantastic, Nifty Fifty

To improve my output, should I:
  • Change something I am doing (See above RE settings *^)
  • Change my Lens
  • Change my Body
Any help would be appreciated.
 
What subjects are you shooting in low light? It might help give us a clearer idea =)

If you are using the 50 wide open and still struggling then its more camera than lens, you can't get much more light into a lens. If the subject is stationary then an IS lens would help but I'm guessing this isn't the case? For a moving subject it would do you no real good.

Personally the only low light shooting I do is in Debating Chambers where I don't use a flash but shoot with a 24-105mm f4, 7D and shoot Raw at 1/30 iso 3200. Shooting raw means I can pull up to 2 stops of illumination back with lightroom without issue.

If you need that shutter speed and noise is your issue the only things that can reduce noise is the iso in which case you can either go with a bigger aperture, different camera or more lighting.

Hope thats of some help.
 
What is your subject matter?

Which lens at what aperture are you using for the results you are unhappy with?

The 50mm 1.8 is the 'fastest' lens you have - at f1.8 it should allow for the least noisy images when compared to the aperture capability of your other lenses.
But I don't know if that focal length and the depth of field at 1.8 is adequate for your subject matter.
 
Are the images correctly exposed?
Are you shooting raw? It give you more control over noise reduction (possibly selectivite) when post processing.
I shoot with a Canon 40D and yes by the time you get to ISO 1600 you start to see noise, however IMHO it is still usuable in some situations.

Shooting with a faster lens may allow you to shoot a lower ISO values which will help with noise.
Changing your body to a newer one, or a full frame body, that has less high ISO noise will help a bit (I also shoot with a 5D).
 
Band photography, where flash is frowned upon / not allowed.

Photographing horses in indoor arenas, sometimes they are floodlit, often not, and can't use flash because it can distract horse & Rider.

Also photographing Fish / reptiles / other animals behind glass, where direct flash would cause reflection.

All subjects would be moving, from a moderate to very fast speed.

I have some photos taken of some bands, shot at 1/250 with 1600ISO on my 40d with the nifty fifty attatched, they are blurred, and so dark that by the time I lighten them up in PP, they are either a technicolour light show of noise, or after noise reduction, they are so "smooth" they look like they've been done in MS paint
 
RichardTaylor said:
Are the images correctly exposed?
Are you shooting raw? It give you more control over noise reduction (possibly selectivite) when post processing.
I shoot with a Canon 40D and yes by the time you get to ISO 1600 you start to see noise, however IMHO it is still usuable in some situations.

Shooting with a faster lens may allow you to shoot a lower ISO values which will help with noise.
Changing your body to a newer one, or a full frame body, that has less high ISO noise will help a bit (I also shoot with a 5D).
Click to expand...

They do come out under exposed, or in need of some fill lighting at least, but someone told me not adjust exposure in camera, and to do it in PP as you get a better effect.
 
What appature were you using when you shot with the 50mm? If you cant get any higher with the iso with significant noise then you either have to shoot with a slower shutter and try and pan with the subject, which does work- you will just take a lot more images trying to get keepers.

1/250 is a very slow shutter speed for low light. If you want to use a higher iso then you'll have to change cameras. Full frame would be better but not required.
 
RichardTaylor said:
Shooting action in low light "basically" means shooting with fast lenses (f2?).
Under exposing images will not hep with noise control - it makes things a lot worse.
Get the exposure right and that may mean replacing your gear in some cases
Click to expand...

How can I correct the exposure just add one or two + of exposure compensation ?
And this will result in less noise, than correcting afterwards in PP ?

Sorry to repeat myself, it's just the last person I spoke to told me the opposite, to avoid adding exposure comp in camera, as it comes out better when corrected in PP.
 
Hi

40D is a bit long in the tooth now but is still and excellent tool.

If your subjects are static get hold of a decent IS lens, that will give you 2 or maybe 3 stops back.

Other than that try some decent noise reduction software, if your out put is monitor sized jpg or small (A4 ish) prints then you are probably worrying too much.

And odd as it may seem don't underexpose, try exposing to the right as much as possible, sounds a bit odd to do this if you are struggling for light but underexposing and pulling the shadows back in post is probably the worst thing you can do with this camera.

Are you looking at the images at 100% to see this noise as a problem??

I don't have too many high ISO pictures from my 40D but what do you think of this??

IMG_4686_7_800wide by david.williams5Dmk3, on Flickr

and a 100% crop - this image has had the luminance and chroma noise reduced.

IMG_4686_BIG by david.williams5Dmk3, on Flickr

HTH

David
 
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I'm off to bed, so will just make one quick comment about shooting through glass..

If you can use off-camera flash to the side you can avoid getting reflection from shooting through glass. Assuming flash is allowed :)

Shooting action with a telephoto lens in dim environments is one of the most potentially expensive photographic endeavors you might undertake :) I hope you find a happy medium.
 
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Just to give you an idea of what is achievable (at least for web publishing and smaller prints) this is what can be achieved (I shoot a fair bit of classical music concerts). And these are at ISO 3200 with a Canon 40D and Canon 135mm f2 L lens..
All hand held in available light.

#1 Canon 40D 1/400 and f2 @ ISO 3200 and F=135mm

The soloist. by dicktay2000, on Flickr

#2 Same camera lens @ ISO 3200 1/320 @ f2 and F=135mm

The doctor by dicktay2000, on Flickr


Just a note, an IS lens will not help freeze action.
 
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Ok, subjects are pretty much constantly moving...

So use the nifty fifty, ramp up the ISO to full, Have +1 or +2 exposure comp, and speed the camera up more than 1/250

And get some noise correcting software ? I currently just use lightroom 3.6
 
Here is one of my better shots straight off camera, no editing.
Even though he is stationary at this moment, it's not as sharp or focused as I want it to be
it's really soft, with some noise visible
View attachment 23042
 
Quote
" How can I correct the exposure just add one or two + of exposure compensation ?
And this will result in less noise, than correcting afterwards in PP ?"
End quote

It depends on how you are metering. I am comfortable useing matrix metering (aperture priority, with the lens wide open and take what ever shutter speed I can get) ) and dial in exposure compensation as needed, you will get a feel for it after a while.
Or you could use spot metering and dial in some exposure compensation (if needed) depend in where you are metering on.

Are you shooting raw?
Re the nose reduction - with the photograph of the lady singer, she was correctly exposed , however all that blackness around her would have been pretty noisy so I would have applied a lot of noise reduction to that area and just a little bit to the singer (this is from memory).

Correctly exposed images have less noise than under exposed images. Run some tests yourself.
 
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RichardTaylor said:
Quote
" How can I correct the exposure just add one or two + of exposure compensation ?
And this will result in less noise, than correcting afterwards in PP ?"
End quote

It depends on how you are metering. I am comfortable useing matrix metering (aperture priority, with the lens wide open and take what ever shutter speed I can get) ) and dial in exposure compensation as needed, you will get a feel for it after a while.
Or you could use spot metering and dial in some exposure compensation (if needed) depend in where you are metering on.

Are you shooting raw?
Re the nose reduction - with the photograph of the lady singer, she was correctly exposed , however all that blackness around her would have been pretty noisy so I would have applied a lot of noise reduction to that are and just a little bit to the singer (this is from memory).

Correctly exposed images have less noise than under exposed images. Run some tests yourself.
Click to expand...

I usually shoot in shutter priority, I don't like changing to aperture priority in these scenarios because I usually end up with a shutter speed far too slow to freeze motion.

Metering I usually use evaluative, or spot, depending on the situation

Yes I always shoot in RAW
 
With the Canon 50mm f1.8 there are a couple of problems (I own one however it doesn't see much use).
It can be slow to focus and is a bit soft wide open.

The image posted is way under exposed (just look at the histogram). Personally I would have deleted it.
The "red" stage lighting doesn't make life easy either (but you cannot fight the lighting director).
I am not familiar with LR noise reduction (I use a Photoshop plug in (Topaz De-noise) for mine).

In very low light levels you sometimes can't get decent images, depending on your gear, you may have to make a decision which is most important. Keep in mind some images with a subject motion (but no unwanted camera motion) can look real good.
 
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RichardTaylor said:
With the Canon 50mm f1.8 there are a couple of problems (I own one however it doesn't see much use).
It can be slow to focus and is a bit soft wide open.

The image posted is way under exposed (just look at the histogram). Personally I would have deleted it.
The "red" stage lighting doesn't make life easy either (but you cannot fight the lighting director).
I am not familiar with LR noise reduction (I use a Photoshop plug in (Topaz De-noise) for mine).

In very low light levels you sometimes can't get decent images, depending on your gear, you may have to make a decision which is most important. Keep in mind some images with a subject motion (but no unwanted camera motion) can look real good.
Click to expand...

So with the kit I had, what could I have changed to improve the shot above?

Would adding in a couple of + points of exposure compensation, made a big difference ?

If so I will do so in the future

I was considering trading up my 50mm 1.8 for a 50mm 1.4, but I worry about DOF with shooting at fast speeds.
 
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What mode are you shooting in? And what aperture are you using with the 50mm?

Changing the exposure compensation is only going to change what the camera perceives to be a properly exposed image. Resulting in either a lighter or darker image.
1.4 DOF is very tight. Slowing the shutter or increasing the iso is all thats going to make your images brighter really.
 
Get closer and fill the frame with the subject (the top half of the guitarist?)
And yes another 2 stops exposure increase woould help a lot, provided it didn't result in unwanted camera motion.

An artistic alternative may be to turn it into a grainy B&W photograph.

#3 This is with a 40D at ISO 3200 1/80 @ f4 and F=200mm. I was using a monopod as the lens did not have IS
The Musician, by dicktay2000, on Flickr
 
Oj9400 said:
What mode are you shooting in? And what aperture are you using with the 50mm?

Changing the exposure compensation is only going to change what the camera perceives to be a properly exposed image. Resulting in either a lighter or darker image.
1.4 DOF is very tight. Slowing the shutter or increasing the iso is all thats going to make your images brighter really.
Click to expand...

As said above I always shoot in shutter priority (TV) as when shooting in Aperture Priority I never get a shutter speed fast enough to freeze motion
 
RichardTaylor said:
Get closer and fill the frame with the subject (the top half of the guitarist?)
And yes another 2 stops exposure increase woould help a lot, provided it didn't result in unwanted camera motion.

An artistic alternative may be to turn it into a grainy B&W photograph.

#3 This is with a 40D at ISO 3200 1/80 @ f4 and F=200mm. I was using a monopod as the lens did not have IS
The Musician, by dicktay2000, on Flickr
Click to expand...

I tried to get as close as I could, Barriers and Bouncers allowing ;-)
 
You could try shooting in full manual, then you can set your aperture, iso and try and dial in a shutter speed that gives both good exposure and sharp enough images. If there are bits they are standing still you should be able to get down to 1/60 or lower if you have a steady hand. Or failing that somewhere in between.
 
Oj9400 said:
You could try shooting in full manual, then you can set your aperture, iso and try and dial in a shutter speed that gives both good exposure and sharp enough images. If there are bits they are standing still you should be able to get down to 1/60 or lower if you have a steady hand. Or failing that somewhere in between.
Click to expand...
Too much of a wuss to go full manual just yet, and not very steady handed to be fair !

Here's another shot, Slightly better lighting and exposure so am happier with this image than the last
but still nowhere near impressed as very soft, and needing a lot of noise reduction doesn't help the softness.

View attachment 23043
 
This was shot at iso 3200 58mm and 1/50 f4. Admittedly when they start talking and moving around I get less good images and more rejections.

6916476_orig.jpg



Also depending upon the stage lighting the noise might not matter so much. In clubs I shoot at iso 5000 and you don't really notice the noise.
 
gothgirl said:
Too much of a wuss to go full manual just yet, and not very steady handed to be fair !

Here's another shot, Slightly better lighting and exposure so am happier with this image than the last
but still nowhere near impressed as very soft, and needing a lot of noise reduction doesn't help the softness.

View attachment 23043
Click to expand...

I think that image would have benefited from a longer shutter speed, it would still leave you with a better image than applying large amounts of noise reduction. I think it only looks soft because the focus in on the arm, not the face. What was this shot at?
 
gothgirl said:
How can I correct the exposure just add one or two + of exposure compensation ?
And this will result in less noise, than correcting afterwards in PP ?

Sorry to repeat myself, it's just the last person I spoke to told me the opposite, to avoid adding exposure comp in camera, as it comes out better when corrected in PP.
Click to expand...

That person gave you totally wrong advice. If that was true, we wouldn't bother with exposure control in-camera and just crank it up in post. Do not under-expose, push the ISO up as high as it needs to go.

Lightroom has good noise control, but you may benefit from local noise reduction and I'm not sure that was available in v3.6. Upgrades are cheap though. In the pic your posted above for example, in those noisy dark areas there's very little detail so you can whack the noise control up on those without much worry.

If your exposure levels and post-processing are good but you're still getting too much noise, then with flash ruled out the only options are faster lenses and a newer full-frame camera.
 
Oj9400 said:
I think that image would have benefited from a longer shutter speed, it would still leave you with a better image than applying large amounts of noise reduction. I think it only looks soft because the focus in on the arm, not the face. What was this shot at?
Click to expand...

Tattoo Jam, Tattoo Festival.

Problem is the tattooist is constantly moving his arm to tattoo and to dip his gun in the ink, and may have blur issues with a longer shutter speed.

Oj9400 said:
Also- sorry to post again, but this was shot with my 20D! with 17-85mm lens. Admittedly I did not have the best seat or position and I would probably edit differently now:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zzhuf0ff5y7d08y/AAABS8JmMlStxMpMfy4fhMnba#lh:null-IMG_4507.jpg

You may recognise the speaker.
Click to expand...

Not off the top of my head, It probably would click if you said it, but I'm pretty much oblivious to most celebrities / politicians etc, please don't be offended it's as I don't watch the news / TV / Read papers etc. lol
 
gothgirl said:
Tattoo Jam, Tattoo Festival.

Problem is the tattooist is constantly moving his arm to tattoo and to dip his gun in the ink, and may have blur issues with a longer shutter speed.



Not off the top of my head, It probably would click if you said it, but I'm pretty much oblivious to most celebrities / politicians etc, please don't be offended it's as I don't watch the news / TV / Read papers etc. lol
Click to expand...

Might have been possible to let the needle/arm blur so long as the arm and the face stayed still. Could have given a bit of motion to it.

And fair enough, its really not a great picture, it was my first attempt at shooting in low light without flash ect. As somebody else said above, shooting in low light without flash and getting clean images can be an expensive game.

Its John Bercow, speaker of the house of commons.
 
1) You need to accept the limitations of your gear and work with them.

2) Practice with manual exposure in a safe environment. Gig photography is one area I always use manual as the light changes so much and you need to ride it.

3) Always work to underexpose some because you will often have the red channel blowing out.

4) Shoot with the 50mm as much as possible at around f2-2.2. It's too soft wife open.

5) learn to anticipate where the band will be and prefocus then use burst mode.

6) Accept that an acceptable shot in gig photography has more leeway in quality - especially with old gear.

7) Use bounced flash through a snoot or flag to protect the audience and band if you can.
 
gothgirl said:
I always shoot in shutter priority (TV) as when shooting in Aperture Priority I never get a shutter speed fast enough to freeze motion
Click to expand...
I can't help thinking this is the wrong way round.

I'm not convinced that *every* shot you take *needs* a shutter speed of 1/250th. But by using shutter priority and insisting on that speed for every image, even when it's not necessary, you're effectively forcing your images to be under-exposed.

If I were you I would try shooting using aperture priority with the lens wide open or nearly so. (Image quality is usually better if the lens isn't quite wide open.) Sometimes the light might give you 1/250th and you'll be happy. More often you might get 1/60th or something like that, but it might not matter. The subject might not be moving fast enough to exhibit motion blur - especially if you anticipate the movement - or a bit of motion blur might be acceptable in the context. Either way, you might get more keepers.
 
StewartR said:
I can't help thinking this is the wrong way round.

I'm not convinced that *every* shot you take *needs* a shutter speed of 1/250th. But by using shutter priority and insisting on that speed for every image, even when it's not necessary, you're effectively forcing your images to be under-exposed.

If I were you I would try shooting using aperture priority with the lens wide open or nearly so. (Image quality is usually better if the lens isn't quite wide open.) Sometimes the light might give you 1/250th and you'll be happy. More often you might get 1/60th or something like that, but it might not matter. The subject might not be moving fast enough to exhibit motion blur - especially if you anticipate the movement - or a bit of motion blur might be acceptable in the context. Either way, you might get more keepers.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I've some gig shots at 1/60th with ease. You just have to follow the instructions I posted.
 
gothgirl said:
They do come out under exposed, or in need of some fill lighting at least, but someone told me not adjust exposure in camera, and to do it in PP as you get a better effect.
Click to expand...

Any exposure increase in pp will result in noise regardless of camera. A newer body will give cleaner images but at a premium. Its hard to say about lenses as a wider aparture may help you shutter speed but then you will decrease your dof.
 
Oj9400 said:
You could try shooting in full manual, then you can set your aperture, iso and try and dial in a shutter speed that gives both good exposure and sharp enough images. If there are bits they are standing still you should be able to get down to 1/60 or lower if you have a steady hand. Or failing that somewhere in between.
Click to expand...

You really need to consider trying to shoot in manual, i have done quite a few gig shoots over the past year or so (local bands in pubs, local venues etc) and the best results i had were in manual

Select your lens to suit your composition, set it to maximum aperture, dial in the shutter speed needed to freeze the action, then use the ISO to meter, but at a gig once you have the first shot nailed metering wise then just shoot the rest of the set with those settings as the overall brightness of stage lighting won't be changing massively throughout the set

Or better still set the camera to manual, set the aperture and shutter speed and set it to Auto ISO and let the ISO handle the metering
 
I've had a read through all of this, and let me first say your gear is adequate for the task in hand, but only if you use the 50mm F1.8. While it is not what I use now, when I had my gear stolen recently I fell back on the 40D and my images were good up to ISO1600 and still very usable at ISO3200. However, and this is key, ONLY if I got the exposure correct at the point of capture. The 40D does not deal with lifting exposure well when already shooting at high ISO.

I cut my gig photography teeth in small dark venues shooting high energy gigs. It's hard work and you have to accept the limitations of your gear, whatever it is. You can still get the shots with what you have now.

Firstly, you need to drop your shutter speed. Every performer stops moving sometimes, time it right and you can easily get away with 1/125th and probably 1/60th. It just takes practise.

Second, and I know you are apprehensive, but turn the dial round to manual. When I'm shooting a pub or small venue, I set 1/125th, F2, ISO 1600. If the lighting is terrible then I will either up the ISO to 3200 or drop the shutter to 1/60th. Sometimes both. No need to mess about with exposure compensation or anything, just simple setting the exposure then adjusting as the show goes on.

Why does this work so well, especially in smaller venues? Simple. They might have rapidly changing light, but the intensity of the light rarely changes. By this I mean for the times when the lights are on the artists, the brightness is often pretty consistent. The same can be said of the bigger shows but pubs are often limited to between 2 and 6 lights total so they are very predictable.

The key to using manual is have a starting point and know what controls you needs to adjust to correct the exposure. With the 50mm F1.8 you want to try and stick at F2 so your aperture is the constant. Upping ISO leads to more noise, lowering shutter speed leads to more blur. Personally I prefer a sharp noisy shot to a blurry one, so I take the ISO high first. If the shot is well exposed then high ISO is not an issue.

Finally, focus. On the 40D use centre point only and focus on something that has enough contrast to get a lock. Use one shot and pick your moments well. The artists face, or the guitar pickups are usually contrasty enough to get a lock. One shot should give a confirmation when focus is achieved and fire the shutter right away - then recompose and get another in.

(FWIW I'm looking at my shots from one of my first gigs now, taken with a 7D. I was using ISO 3200 with a shutter of 1/60th at F2.8. Many have blur in them, but many do not. I found the 7D was about a full stop better than the 40D at high iso when viewed as output so with you having the 50mm you can achieve good results. It just takes practise. I don't think new gear will fix your problems yet.
 
gothgirl said:
They do come out under exposed, or in need of some fill lighting at least, but someone told me not adjust exposure in camera, and to do it in PP as you get a better effect.
Click to expand...

You need to expose as accurately as possible to avoid noise. Underexposing is about the worst thing you can do. You need top be able to shoot at 3200 ISO to effectively cover anything moving in low light. Remember that IS only helps with your movement, not the subjects.

Try this. Open up to F4 and leave it there. Then try shooting wide and close and then try zoomed in from further away. You'll get a much better dof shooting wide and you'll get more light too.

For exposure I use the 3% meter on my 5D2, your 40D I am pretty sure has the same. Back button focus and use your half shutter press when you want to lock exposure.

You have to shoot manual and you'll need to practice until you master it. It can be very challenging!

F4, ISO 3200, 1/25th, 24-105 IS L @ 60mm - Canon 5D2

15548091117_cbfac9aef7_o.jpg


F4, ISO 3200, 1/500th, 24-105 L IS @ 24mm - Canon 5D2.

12785825834_b4cd946179_z.jpg
 
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gothgirl said:
They do come out under exposed, or in need of some fill lighting at least, but someone told me not adjust exposure in camera, and to do it in PP as you get a better effect.
Click to expand...
Totally incrrect advice.

Noise is mostly always in the darker areas (shadows) by under exposing you introduce more dark areas to the image and therefore more noise and when you amplify it by correcting the exposure it shows even more!

Get the exposure right or even over expose slightly to reduce the noise in your images

Google "ETTR" (expose to the right)
 
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