RAW question on WPOTY rules

Bill19

Bill19

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Billy
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Hi, i thought I would have a go at wildlife photographer of the year award (junior) why not? Although I cant enter some images I was maybe hopeing too, any way I have a rule queerie:
If an image reaches the final round of judging you must supply the following:
RAW file (eg *.NEF, *.CR2, *.CRW), DNG files are only permitted if DNG is the native RAW format of the camera. Or original transparency or black and white negative for scan entrants.
High Res file (TIFF) for reproduction in the exhibition and book. This file must be at least 50MB.
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http://www.nhm.ac.uk/visit-us/whats-on/temporary-exhibitions/wpy-entry/Rules.jsp

50MB?? my RAWs on my bridge are only 24MB and after chaning them to a TIFF they are only 9MB! I thought OK, maybe its because mine's a bridge.
But I googled one of the cameras which had gotten a picture in the book (Nikon D80) and according to this link the RAW's are only 12.7 MB?? so how?? what??
I am just confused, any body clear this up for me?
thanks!
Bill :)
 
At the end of the day it is their contest and their rules. However I would approach it with a bit of caution.

A RAW file is pure data saved in a manufacture specific file format so it can be read via software and decoded into an image. It is step 1 in the entire digital process and does not represent the final image. I would question their reasons as to why they require a RAW file as this is borderline invasive. To me it asks many questions as to their ability to judge the creativity of a photograph.

What if you were shooting in film? Would they want your negative? Whats more, would you give it to them? I think not.

RAW files, as well as film require the protection of their photographer. Never give them away. Simple as.

EDIT: WOW THEY WANT THE NEGATIVES TOO!
 
TIFF files are pretty big once saved, I can't remember the MP you need to reach it, but it is something along the lines of 12..

If you have a lower resolution camera then you can interpolate (at a guess!) I know there has been entries taken with 350Ds (indeed, last years winner was I do believe!) so don't worry about the technical specifications.

They'll need RAWs/negatives to print the highest quality they can, as winning entries are blown up for the exhibition and printed in the books.

I'm sure negatives would be returned!
 
King_Boru said:
At the end of the day it is their contest and their rules. However I would approach it with a bit of scrutiny.

A RAW file is pure data saved in a manufacture specific file format so it can be read via software and decoded into an image. It is step 1 in the entire digital process and does not represent the final image. I would question their reasons as to why they require a RAW file as this is borderline invasive. To me it asks many questions as to their ability to judge the creativity of a photograph.
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The reason for requesting the RAW file is simple: It's a way of demonstrating that the picture is indeed yours. If you had ripped off the image from someone elses work then you wouldn't be able to provide the file.


I would question this competition as to its legitimacy in protecting the rights of its entrants. Sounds like they are more interested in obtaining some free high quality work to publish royalty free.
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You need to get out more and lose the persecution complex. I've yet to see any competition rules that don't allow the organisers to reproduce your entry in some form or another.
 
OK - I've just read the rules.

They do actually (I saw "BBC", and was starting to get worried) protect the rights of the authors very well.

I don't know why they require such high quality, but I can confirm that these are the same specs as are required by many online photo repositories.

Reading around a bit, you should be able to read in a RAW file into any good image editing software. Saving this image as an UNCOMPRESSED, sRGB TIFF file should lead to a file of sufficient size, so long as your camera is >10MP, and you are not shooting as a jpeg.

HTH, although I admit it's not my area of expertise!
 
Not sure why you are worrying the rule say this
File size requirements for all entries For the initial submission, images must be 1400 pixels on the longest dimension. Digital images must have been taken on a sufficiently high resolution camera - at least ten (10) million pixels, on the highest setting.
 
Bill19 said:
50MB?? my RAWs on my bridge are only 24MB and after chaning them to a TIFF they are only 9MB! I thought OK, maybe its because mine's a bridge.
But I googled one of the cameras which had gotten a picture in the book (Nikon D80) and according to this link the RAW's are only 12.7 MB?? so how?? what??
I am just confused, any body clear this up for me?
thanks!
Bill :)
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Hi Bill, the TIFF size will depend on what settings you use to convert from RAW. With my D80 the RAW (.NEF) files are generally about 10MB but when converted to TIFF (16bit, no compression) they are over 55MB ~ typically 57-58MB.

HTH :)
 
Thanks guys, my camera is 12mp, using the finepix viewer it only lets me turn it in to an Exif-TIFF, so is that a compressed TIFF?
i am looking for a proper Raw editor, and i think will be downloading s7raw (as its free and supports my camera) soon, and hopefully that will enable me to save it to a lesser compression.
But yeh, I will still enter whether I have the correct RAW's and what ever or not any way. not really expecting to get any where near the portfolio, but you won't win if you don't enter :)
 
Bristolian said:
The reason for requesting the RAW file is simple: It's a way of demonstrating that the picture is indeed yours. If you had ripped off the image from someone elses work then you wouldn't be able to provide the file.

You need to get out more and lose the persecution complex. I've yet to see any competition rules that don't allow the organisers to reproduce your entry in some form or another.
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Persecution complex? Perhaps, but maybe its because my work has been illegally used, printed and published without my permission before.

And I don't need to get out more, but thanks for the advice.

EDIT: What if you were shooting JPEG?
 
King_Boru said:
RAW files, as well as film require the protection of their photographer. Never give them away. Simple as.

EDIT: WOW THEY WANT THE NEGATIVES TOO!
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It has been explained why they want these.

WPOTY is one of the most prestige photography competitions the world has to offer, both amateurs and professionals take part. Allowing them to reproduce your work, and display it FREE (aside the entrant fee) to an audience of millions sounds like a good deal to me. Being on page 8 of Google isn't going to bring in that kind of audience ;)

Yes, they make money from book sales etc, however they are not like most competitions/companies asking you to give your work away free where you will get a small thank you in the small print. All the winning entries have web addresses with them, they have a small write up about the photographer and how they got the image.. winning it can launch a career.
 
purpleclouds said:
It has been explained why they want these.

WPOTY is one of the most prestige photography competitions the world has to offer, both amateurs and professionals take part. Allowing them to reproduce your work, and display it FREE (aside the entrant fee) to an audience of millions sounds like a good deal to me. Being on page 8 of Google isn't going to bring in that kind of audience ;)

Yes, they make money from book sales etc, however they are not like most competitions/companies asking you to give your work away free where you will get a small thank you in the small print. All the winning entries have web addresses with them, they have a small write up about the photographer and how they got the image.. winning it can launch a career.
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That's a fair analogy but again you have brought up the point about them making money from your work and you, well, not seeing a penny. Yes you are right that it might launch a career, it might not. You might get side deals with 3rd party printers and distributors, you might be asked to go on a wild hound chase to photograph the next big thing. The exposure is definitely worth it. My point is that they make it so "oh its ok" about the handing over of RAW and Negative files. I personally don't like it. I think its a little invasive and not necessary.

Another point which has been overlooked is why they won't accept a .dng file if the camera doesn't directly support it. That there in itself rules out my entire library of wildlife photographs (a couple of which have seen the light of being published). Yet, they don't seem to offer any particular reason as to why?

I contacted the organizers expressing my concerns. I feel there is nothing wrong with that. Hopefully I receive a reply which I will post here. The way I see it is that there are Grey areas to the terms and conditions.

I am glad people are expressing their opinions but you don't have to try and patronize me in your efforts.
 
They want the Raws so they can check it's not a Photochop job. They won't be using them for repro.
 
The TIFF is for reproduction as they state. They wouldn't be reproducing the raw file as that's not what you entered.

The raw goes someway to proving authorship and as Hoppy says, it shows what work has been done on the file. Looking at the fallout from recent wildlife competitions, it makes sense for the organisers to do what they can to stop 'fakes' being entered.
 
It looks like a D100 no longer takes images good enough :shrug:
 
King_Boru said:
I contacted the organizers expressing my concerns. I feel there is nothing wrong with that. Hopefully I receive a reply which I will post here. The way I see it is that there are Grey areas to the terms and conditions.

I am glad people are expressing their opinions but you don't have to try and patronize me in your efforts.
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I hope you get a reply too, it'd be good to hear what they say!

If you had expressed yourself as detailed originally instead of just 'never give them (RAWs) away. simple as' then my post may not have been so patronising ;)
 
Resample and increase the file size in Photoshop?
It's meets the spec ;)

Also - That's exactly what I had to do recently with a 5DII image to get it to the specs asked for by my printers to do an A1 print. :cuckoo:

It seems 21Mp is not enough either :lol:
 
DuncanDisorderly said:
Resample and increase the file size in Photoshop?
It's meets the spec ;)

Also - That's exactly what I had to do recently with a 5DII image to get it to the specs asked for by my printers to do an A1 print. :cuckoo:

It seems 21Mp is not enough either :lol:
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56.5 Mp minimum ......
 
purpleclouds said:
I hope you get a reply too, it'd be good to hear what they say!

If you had expressed yourself as detailed originally instead of just 'never give them (RAWs) away. simple as' then my post may not have been so patronising ;)
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I did get a reply. Which was nice. It was polite and covered one of my main concerns. Below is an extract from the RAW submission rules.

Declaration of truth

All photographers will be asked to declare that the images they are submitting comply with the competition rules and that the picture information they provide is complete, true and accurate.
If an image reaches the final round of judging you must supply the following:

* RAW file (eg *.NEF, *.CR2, *.CRW), DNG files are only permitted if DNG is the native RAW format of the camera. Or original transparency or black and white negative for scan entrants.
* High Res file (TIFF) for reproduction in the exhibition and book. This file must be at least 50MB.
* We will contact you by email to request these in early May 2010 from wildphoto@nhm.ac.uk or nhm@nhm.pmailuk.com The organisers cannot be held responsible for emails that do not arrive due to the entrant’s email security settings or restrictions placed by their Internet service provider.

If an image is awarded a prize you must supply three A4 match proofs.
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It doesn't state that the files will be deleted/returned once verification of the entrants image has been completed. My reply (from nhm) states that the originals are required to make sure the submitted content is within the guidelines of the competition. These rules are clearly laid out and I praise them for being so strict on image editing. I think they needed to clarify the return of the originals clearly as those who have undergone stolen imagery issues develop a keen eye for terms and conditions.

Reply:

We do not accept DNG files unless DNG is the native RAW format of the camera as it is not possible for us to check these files to see if they have been altered outside of the competition rules.

We request all RAW files and original transparencies for images that reach the final round of judging so that we can check that the photo that has been submitted has not been altered outside of the competition rules. All RAW files that we receive are deleted and original transparencies are returned to the photographer.
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Although I am still a little weary as to their reasons why converted dng's are not accepted. I am going to investigate it further. I am waiting for a reply from Adobe, which I don't expect to rcv.
 
DuncanDisorderly said:
Resample and increase the file size in Photoshop?
It's meets the spec ;)

Also - That's exactly what I had to do recently with a 5DII image to get it to the specs asked for by my printers to do an A1 print. :cuckoo:

It seems 21Mp is not enough either :lol:
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Ah great Idea! lol
I am still wondering why my Exif-Tiffs make the image much smaller (well 9 mb)?
If i download s7raw will i be able to compress it less?
Interesting debate :thumbs:
 
King_Boru said:
Although I am still a little weary as to their reasons why converted dng's are not accepted.
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Because you can edit a photo, adding in or removing anything you like and then save as a dng. Quite easily breaking the rules, and as they say, "unless DNG is the native RAW format of the camera as it is not possible for us to check these files to see if they have been altered outside of the competition rules."

Before anyone asks, as far as i can see no you cant save as dng from photoshop (probably can with an add-in) but you can from lightroom.
 
Bill19 said:
Ah great Idea! lol
I am still wondering why my Exif-Tiffs make the image much smaller (well 9 mb)?
If i download s7raw will i be able to compress it less?
Interesting debate :thumbs:
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Exif-tiff just means it is embedding the Exif info along with the Tiff. I would guess it is using Jpeg compression at around 70% which is pretty standard.
If your lucky you might be able to find a setting somewhere deep within a menu to change it.
 
I've noticed that when i turn my pics in to a TIFF there are smaller than my usual JPEGs, at about 2500 length (very approximate number, pants memory lol) where as my usual pictures are 4000x3000, how come? think i need to download this raw thing now...
 
DuncanDisorderly said:
Resample and increase the file size in Photoshop?
It's meets the spec ;)

Also - That's exactly what I had to do recently with a 5DII image to get it to the specs asked for by my printers to do an A1 print. :cuckoo:

It seems 21Mp is not enough either :lol:
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I might be misinterpreting but the regulations don't seem to allow for that work around.
"Digital images must have been taken on a sufficiently high resolution camera - at least ten (10) million pixels, on the highest setting."
To me that says the original raw file must be 10Mp or am I wrong?
 
Yes and no.....

Yes, Chaz's rule extract does seem pretty clear. I don't agree with it and I don't think it is as relevant to image quality as the glass in front of the sensor. I used to get superb A3 prints from 4Mp and there is nothing wrong with the 8Mp out of the last generation of DSLRs. It should be image quality that counts; that rule extract is just fuelling the Mp wars and nobody should be promoting that!

No, some manufacturers apply lossless compression to their RAW files. Canon and Nikon certainly do, so it depends on how much fine detail is in the image as to how big the resultant file is. A look at a recent days landscape shoot with the 5DII shows RAW files between 21Mb and 34Mb. There is an awful lot of fine detail in those images so they will not compress very well; the difference in file size is probably how much sky I kept in the shot.

There is also the debate about what is a pixel.
In a TIFF file it is three 16bit values (RGB), that's 6 bytes; so ten million of these would need 60Mb storage; TIFF is not compressed.
RAW pixels are a whole different thing as they record each light collecting bucket on the sensor and are either R or G or B (except Foveon sensor which does all three). So to make up 21Mp in a TIFF there need to be an awful lot more light collecting buckets (pixels?) on the sensor. Just to confuse matters they are not usually in rows and columns and the ratios between the numbers R, G, and B buckets is not the same. This is why different RAW conversion engines make noticeable differences in image quality - it's a non trivial task!
 
King_Boru said:
Persecution complex? Perhaps, but maybe its because my work has been illegally used, printed and published without my permission before.

And I don't need to get out more, but thanks for the advice.

EDIT: What if you were shooting JPEG?
Click to expand...

Well, If you really want to be entering something in a competition like that you should plan out your shooting and make sure you're not in jpg I guess.
 
King_Boru said:
I was just putting it out there. I shoot RAW.
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Oh, don't get me wrong. Not attacking you personally. It's just that I think if someone would go through the trouble of entering a competition like that, then it would seem that they would also go through the trouble of reading the rules and to make sure that they're shooting in raw. The file format becomes just as important as the lens almost.
 
Markk said:
Oh, don't get me wrong. Not attacking you personally. It's just that I think if someone would go through the trouble of entering a competition like that, then it would seem that they would also go through the trouble of reading the rules and to make sure that they're shooting in raw. The file format becomes just as important as the lens almost.
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Oh no, not personally. My complaint really boils down to the DNG files. I have been limited on space for quite some time and therefore convert my .NEF RAW files into DNG. According to the rules this renders my entire library useless for submission. So that lead me to bring up the question of JPEG's as there are many a photographer just using that file format.
 
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