Reaching The limits of My Kit Shooting A Wedding

68lbs

68lbs

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April 2008
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Well, I thought my gear was pretty good, but I struggled yesterday and had nowhere to turn. The light was just so poor, that even at ISO 1600 and f/2.8 on my 70-200L I was getting stoopidly slow shutterspeeds.

So, what are the options...? As far as I can tell, I have two...

1. Faster glass? Not sure what's available here (if anything), and am guessing it would have to be an L prime at enormous expense!

2. A 5D II with higher iso capability? Not sure how high it goes, or whether it's usable, but I notice one of Simon R's D3 shots was ISO 6400.

Advice? Thoughts?
 
68lbs said:
Well, I thought my gear was pretty good, but I struggled yesterday and had nowhere to turn. The light was just so poor, that even at ISO 1600 and f/2.8 on my 70-200L I was getting stoopidly slow shutterspeeds.

So, what are the options...? As far as I can tell, I have two...

1. Faster glass? Not sure what's available here (if anything), and am guessing it would have to be an L prime at enormous expense!

2. A 5D II with higher iso capability? Not sure how high it goes, or whether it's usable, but I notice one of Simon R's D3 shots was ISO 6400.

Advice? Thoughts?
Click to expand...

1. For faster glass you are looking at primes now. I guess you're talking lots of expense but don't know how much L glass costs

5. Higher ISO is a good option. I regularly shoot a D700 at iso 3200 without too much thinking about it, and 6400 if pushed. Don't know how the 5D ii compares but from comments I think its not to shaby on that front either

Hugh-
 
68lbs said:
1. Faster glass? Not sure what's available here (if anything), and am guessing it would have to be an L prime at enormous expense!
Click to expand...
For the 70-200 range, you're looking at:
* 85mm f/1.8 - cheap (£300)
* 85mm f/1.2 L II - expensive (£1800)
* 100mm f/2 - cheap (£400)
* 135m f/2 L - middling (£900)
* 200mm f/2 L IS - very expensive (£4000) and heavy
 
come on over to Nikon! ;)
D3 - 6400 no bother at all
 
Monopod's a good idea.

What about a proper tripod?

You could also try using mirror lockup to reduce vibration induced by the mirror flipping up and down when you take the shot. Makes it harder to judge if you caught the right moment though..

Canon 135 f/2 is breathtaking on a 5D but it's only one stop faster than 2.8 and has no IS. The problem with primes and a wedding is you will need multiple bodies because you don't want to be swapping lenses all the time.
 
maarten.dhaese said:
Monopod's a good idea. What about a proper tripod?
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To be honest I'd discounted both of these options because I want to be moving about, reacting quickly, and don't really want to be clattering around with a tripod.
 
maarten.dhaese said:
Also your 70-200 2.8 L has no IS? Getting the version with IS will also result in more successful shots under these conditions.
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You could be right with that. I have no real knowledge of IS... I've read various comments on here where people say you need it, and others then say it doesn't prevent somethingorother, and I'm a bit confused really as to whether it's useful or not. If it is the solution, it's not going to be as pricey as the other options.
 
will69 said:
Mono pod, less than £100 and it will give you 2 to 3 stops at the same ISO.
Click to expand...

maarten.dhaese said:
Also your 70-200 2.8 L has no IS?

Getting the version with IS will also result in more successful shots under these conditions.
Click to expand...

Both these suggestions will allow slower shutter speeds but that just introduces a new problem - subject movement. Much below 1/30th and people (even sitting "still") will start getting blurry edges. I can't help feeling that higher ISO has to be the way to go and that probably means D700 or D3, although you can probably expect the next batch of Canon releases to be as good in this respect.
 
68lbs said:
I have no real knowledge of IS... I've read various comments on here where people say you need it, and others then say it doesn't prevent somethingorother, and I'm a bit confused really as to whether it's useful or not. If it is the solution, it's not going to be as pricey as the other options.
Click to expand...
IS allows you to use shutter speeds 2-3 stops slower than you're used to without inducing camera shake. So if you shoot at 1/250th with a 200mm lens, IS allows you to go down to 1/30th with no more camera shake. But if your subjects aren't static, you might then get some subject movement.

The 70-200 L IS is almost identical to the 70-200 L non-IS in appearance; a bit fatter and a bit heavier, but not much. If you had the IS version there would be some occasions when it would make no difference because you don't need IS, some occasions when it would help (poor light, static subjects), and some occasions when it would make no difference because the subjects aren't static and you can't afford to use a slow shutter speed. Only you know how often you find yourself in each of those situations.
 
StewartR said:
For the 70-200 range, you're looking at:
* 85mm f/1.8 - cheap (£300)
* 85mm f/1.2 L II - expensive (£1800)
* 100mm f/2 - cheap (£400)
* 135m f/2 L - middling (£900)
* 200mm f/2 L IS - very expensive (£4000) and heavy
Click to expand...

You missed one off Stewart...
200mm f/2.8 £650 (ish)

it fits right in with that list :) EDIT Doh! NO you didn't... I really should have read the OP's post better! :bonk:

cheers
 
The 5D MkII is very good at high ISO! i regulaly shoot at 4000 and higher.. there is no REAL difference in noise than with the D700.. if you want, later on i can email you some shots taken at a wedding with very high iso.. the MkII is much better than the MkI... i have the 70-200 2.8IS, if its people you are shooting then the IS isnt really going to help if the are moving about..

A monopod is very helpful at weddings during the service and the Speeches.. all other times flash can be your friend, especially if you can bounce it..
 
How far "up" in North Yorkshire are you? if you fancy meeting part way at a church or old castle thats going to be dark I could meet you and you could try the 70-200 with IS
 
susie said:
How far "up" in North Yorkshire are you?
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Unfortunately, about as far as you can get... in olden money, it's Cleveland. I should be able to lay my hands on one to test though.

I think Fraggle's got it about right by the sound of it... combining a 5dII with a 70-200 IS.

Just sounds a little expensive to me at the moment. Damn!
 
68lbs said:
Well, I thought my gear was pretty good, but I struggled yesterday and had nowhere to turn. The light was just so poor, that even at ISO 1600 and f/2.8 on my 70-200L I was getting stoopidly slow shutterspeeds.

So, what are the options...? As far as I can tell, I have two...

1. Faster glass? Not sure what's available here (if anything), and am guessing it would have to be an L prime at enormous expense!

2. A 5D II with higher iso capability? Not sure how high it goes, or whether it's usable, but I notice one of Simon R's D3 shots was ISO 6400.

Advice? Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Indoors or outside ??? or both
 
Various options already advised, but I would definitely have a look at the 85mm f/1.8. Best bang for buck lens there is alongside the nifty fifty.
 
The 50mm f1.4 works a treat on the canon 5d. I shot just about a whole wedding with that one lens (a small registrars office and then restaurant) and I shot about 50% of another wedding with that lens and a 85mm f1.8 (basically nearly all the indoor church shots as no flash was allowed). I will happily shoot the 5d at ISO 3200 (just expose to the right and a touch of Neat Image or even just box standard noise removal in Light Room). If you expose to the right the noise is not a real issue.

Cheapest option so far :)

Edit: I was going to mention the nifty but clicktor beat me to it. The 50mm f1.8 is not a good choice for a low light lens when auto focus needs to be fast and accurate. It will hunt for focus at the drop of a hat when the light fades which is not what you want for weddings. Its a good lens at a great price but needs reasonable light or AF assist to get the best out of it. The 50mm f1.4 is in a different league for AF.

John
 
jpwone said:
The 50mm f1.4 works a treat on the canon 5d. I shot just about a whole wedding with that one lens (a small registrars office and then restaurant) and I shot about 50% of another wedding with that lens and a 85mm f1.8 (basically nearly all the indoor church shots as no flash was allowed). I will happily shoot the 5d at ISO 3200 (just expose to the right and a touch of Neat Image or even just box standard noise removal in Light Room). If you expose to the right the noise is not a real issue.

Cheapest option so far :)

Edit: I was going to mention the nifty but clicktor beat me to it. The 50mm f1.8 is not a good choice for a low light lens when auto focus needs to be fast and accurate. It will hunt for focus at the drop of a hat when the light fades which is not what you want for weddings. Its a good lens at a great price but needs reasonable light or AF assist to get the best out of it. The 50mm f1.4 is in a different league for AF.

John
Click to expand...

That's a fair enough comment to be honest. The ONLY reason the 1.4 is worth 3 times the price really for me.
 
Why do you think so many Pro's have jumped-ship and gone over the Nikon D3 bodies...?

You've already answered your question IMO - spend up to £6k replacing everything with uber-fast glass to get one extra stop or £7-8k on a camera and lenses that'll give you wa-aaaaay more latitude...
 
Blue Eagle said:
What about use of flash?
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^^^ I agree :thumbs: It's the sensible and obvious answer.

If you're up to ISO1600 and running out of options, that's what flash is for ;)

Edit: I see you have a 580EXII - why can't you use that creatively for what you're shooting?
 
68lbs said:
Unfortunately, about as far as you can get... in olden money, it's Cleveland. I should be able to lay my hands on one to test though.

I think Fraggle's got it about right by the sound of it... combining a 5dII with a 70-200 IS.

Just sounds a little expensive to me at the moment. Damn!
Click to expand...

You don't need the 5D MkII - Your 5D with the 70-200 f2.8L IS would be a great combo giving you 3 stops of IS. It's probably my most used lens on a wedding (that and the 24-105 are hardly off my 2 cameras).

What sort of SS were you getting? I've shout at ISO 1600., f2.8, 1/30th with the 70-200 f2.8IS and got cracking sharp images. You still need to be careful of shake and subject motion at that speed but weddings are not particularly fast paced. You also have ISO3200 which although not brilliant for large images, will be fine for most small images in an album - a little NR can do wonders.

Sell the 70-200 and get the one with IS - that would be my advice.
 
I must admit I couldn't get results from a 70-200 handheld at 1/30th. I don't have the ability to hold the kit that steady.
 
HoppyUK said:
^^^ I agree :thumbs: It's the sensible and obvious answer.

If you're up to ISO1600 and running out of options, that's what flash is for ;)

Edit: I see you have a 580EXII - why can't you use that creatively for what you're shooting?
Click to expand...

Good luck finding a church that allows use of flash.

Even better luck finding one that allows you to use a remote speedlight at the front during a ceremony.

And even better luck trying to light the front of a church with a camera mounted one when you need a 200mm because you have to be at the back.

;)
 
Radiohead said:
Good luck finding a church that allows use of flash.

Even better luck finding one that allows you to use a remote speedlight at the front during a ceremony.

And even better luck trying to light the front of a church with a camera mounted one when you need a 200mm because you have to be at the back.

;)
Click to expand...

The Lord giveth flash, then tooketh away.

What did you chaps do before high ISO digital? It was only a couple of years ago :thinking:
 
In churches I'm often shooting at 1/100, ISO3200, f/2.8 on my 70-200. IS is a big help. If I'm really struggling for shutter speeds at f/2.8 I use my 50mm.

Primes are the way forward, but as other have said, the bodies these days are getting better and better at high iso.
 
Radiohead said:
Good luck finding a church that allows use of flash.
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Most church's I've shot in allow flash - although I try not to. Registry offices are sometimes darker and often they don't allow the use of flash.

Radiohead said:
Even better luck finding one that allows you to use a remote speedlight at the front during a ceremony.
Click to expand...

None have permitted that as it's a H&S risk (unless it's manned by someone)

Radiohead said:
And even better luck trying to light the front of a church with a camera mounted one when you need a 200mm because you have to be at the back.

;)
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Depends on the situation I suppose but it's tough!

That's why you should always have the gear capable of getting you out of a hole!

it's not the togs fault if he can't deliver an image because of church resrtictions but it is if they don't carry gear capable in the first place.
 
EOS_JD said:
Most church's I've shot in allow flash - although I try not to. Registry offices are sometimes darker and often they don't allow the use of flash.



None have permitted that as it's a H&S risk (unless it's manned by someone)



Depends on the situation I suppose but it's tough!

That's why you should always have the gear capable of getting you out of a hole!

it's not the togs fault if he can't deliver an image because of church resrtictions but it is if they don't carry gear capable in the first place.
Click to expand...

I do know this (but the churches round here are clearly different). And yet I don't use flash.....it's achievable, but needs a lot of investment.
 
Pro body and fast lenses are the way forward IMHO. I shot a couple of Christenings using a D700 and fast lenses (f/1.4 & f/2.8) and didn't have a care in the world as it was so good at high ISO's.
 
A little trick that can be used if you think the image will take a crop ie. you have a high resolution body is to shoot wide and then crop in PP. The shooting wide reduces your required shutter speed for sharp images but you have to judge each image as you crop it as camera shake will still be apparent with tight crops.

The other thing I do is to lean against a pillar or wall or put the camera against a wall or corner or chair top. This can give you very good results in low light.

Having said that the two lenses I use most often when the light is against me are the 50mm f1.4 and the 85mm f1.8. For church services where I can hide behind a pillar at the front of the service I find them indispensable.

For no flash registry offices I use the 50mm f1.4 a lot.

All the above is on a 5D which I will happily push to ISO 3200 to correctly expose the faces and run a bit of NR in PP. If the faces are correctly exposed then everything else falls into place for my style of photography.

John
 
If the Canon EF 50 f/1.4 is an option, also consider the Sigma 50 f/1.4. The Sigma is very sharp straight from f/1.4 whereas the Canon needs to be stopped down before it reaches the same level of sharpness.

This can clearly be seen here:

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/...mera=453&CameraComp=453&Sample=0&SampleComp=0

Move the mouse over the test chart to see the difference.

I have both and the test above confirms my impressions of the relative performance of the 2 lenses.
 
I was pretty much in the same boat Lee. A 5D and a 1DsII and a 70-200mm Sigma.

So my tactic was two fold. Firstly primes, you really can't beat them for wide open shooting and the bokeh is sublime. :) I got a 24mm f2, a 50mm f2.8 (will get f1.4) and an 85mm f1.8. The 85mm f1.8 is the best lens/pound I've got, it truly is that good. £300 problem solved!

Six months later I upgraded the Sigma 70-200 f2.8 for a Canon 70-200mm f2.8IS (bought second hand) I can shoot with that down to an unbelievable 1/15 sec. I've tested it! To be honest with you though, I don't like to shoot much below 1/60. I have found that to be the point where subject movement really starts to make the shots a little unpredictable. So long as I can get to 1/60 I'm usually happy and I'll play about with the settings as soon as I get into position to make sure it's consistant at that.

I always, always make sure I have at least one fat prime about my person, it's also invaluable backup if anything should go wrong with the zooms. :)

I'm not diving into buying a new body yet as I have found that I can happily get to 1/60 with the kit that I now have in any of the lighting I've had to deal with this year. If I do change anyting it will be next year and it will be an upgrade of the 5D to MkII because I can use video as well as have one camera with high ISO.

Hope that helps.
 
Someone was showing off their new 7D last week at a high ISO and it looked very good. Maybe that might be worth a look. From the shots I saw it was in the same league as the D700/D3 ! I might be wrong though :)
 
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