rear sync flash

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Steve
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Hey Guys,

I've been reading up on rear sync flash as I want to play with it for gig photography.

But the more I think about it the more I feel rear sync flash would be better for general shooting.

Can you give me some examples where front sync flash is more appropriate?

Cheers,
Steve.
 
A lot of the time it makes no difference but a lot of flash photography includes people and it's usually important for the flash to fire immediately, as shutter speeds of maybe 1/4sec are not uncommon and the delay might cause problems. Presumably you press the shutter at the moment you want the picture taken, so the flash goes off as close to that moment as possible.

With longer slow-sync exposures, you often need to manage the ambient light blur and that can look better with second-curtain sync. Car headlights are the common example. But again this is not awlays the case, which is why you've got the option.

Not sure why you would want second-curtain sync for gig photography?
 
Not sure why you would want second-curtain sync for gig photography?

I would imagine for a technique called "dragging the shutter" perhaps.

Its where you use a longer exposure to blur/capture the background, then use the flash to freeze the forground.

So you could capture the atmosphere or the lights etc in a club/gig and still freeze the person your shooting in the foreground.

someone else could probably explain it better than I can....
 
I would imagine for a technique called "dragging the shutter" perhaps.

Its where you use a longer exposure to blur/capture the background, then use the flash to freeze the forground.

So you could capture the atmosphere or the lights etc in a club/gig and still freeze the person your shooting in the foreground.

someone else could probably explain it better than I can....

Don't think you'd need 2nd curtain for that. I did a wedding and had loads of "blinkers" (people with droopy eyelids or eyes shut) and realised it was set to 2nd curtain. I changed to 1st curtain and it was a lot better.

Dragging the shutter as you said is just using a slow speed to catch some ambient light in the bg. I use this method always.. but not with 2nd curtain.

As YOU said..... im sure I will be put right soon!! :D

I
 
That makes sense to me what you said there, I guess I assumed that the flash freezes the forground last, but doubt it would matter if it did it first or last, so long as the ambient gets recorded.
 
Dragging the shutter as you said is just using a slow speed to catch some ambient light in the bg. I use this method always.. but not with 2nd curtain.

When you fire the flash with at the shutter curtain opening (i.e. front curtain sync) you lit immediately capture the flash lit subject and then continue to capture the unlit areas of the frame (background etc) for the rest of the exposure. This however means that if something happens to your subject during long exposure (it moves away or something will pass in front of it etc) it gets blended with the original flash exposed one. So you may end up with weird looking subject (transparent or some ghosting images through it). With rear curtain sync this does not happen because the flash lit subject is exposed last and effectively overrides what was already exposed in its place on a frame.

That's my understanding and experience of it anyway...
 
Another way of looking at it is that if you use First curtain synch, you can freeze the moment, and then whilst the shutter is open everything else gets recorded.
If you were shooting for example a car, or someone walking along the road with then the final image would have ghosting or light trails in front of the frozen subject which looks a bit odd (or at least like the subject was moving backwards). With rear curtain, the subject is caught first and frozen second, which leaves the light trails/ghosting behind it, giving the impression of forward momentum.

Obviously this is fairly simplistic, but very useful for subjects moving across the frame. However with subjects moving within the frame, the end result is pretty similar irrespective of whether front or rear curtain is selected. It's usually better to use frint curtain synch in these situations because the subject(s) assume that the "shot" has been taken at the beginning, and therefore get "frozen" after they've relaxed, moved or looked away etc.

I know it's a bit of a hamfisted explanation, but hopefully it makes sense.

Example herel
 
When you fire the flash with at the shutter curtain opening (i.e. front curtain sync) you lit immediately capture the flash lit subject and then continue to capture the unlit areas of the frame (background etc) for the rest of the exposure. This however means that if something happens to your subject during long exposure (it moves away or something will pass in front of it etc) it gets blended with the original flash exposed one. So you may end up with weird looking subject (transparent or some ghosting images through it). With rear curtain sync this does not happen because the flash lit subject is exposed last and effectively overrides what was already exposed in its place on a frame.

That's my understanding and experience of it anyway...

Nail. Head. Wallop :thumbs:

Rear curtain sync is pretty much like a full stop and the end of a sentence, the flash being the punctuation at the end of the frame.
 
Hey Guys,


Can you give me some examples where front sync flash is more appropriate?

Cheers,
Steve.

When shooting people who are looking at the camera.

With rear sync the preflash fires to get the flash setting and can cause people to blink, the shutter then opens and at the end of the exposure the flash goes off and the shutter closes.
This can lead to shots of people with eyes closed or half closed.

With front sync the preflash and main flash are so close together it is not a problem.
 
When shooting people who are looking at the camera.

With rear sync the preflash fires to get the flash setting and can cause people to blink, the shutter then opens and at the end of the exposure the flash goes off and the shutter closes.
This can lead to shots of people with eyes closed or half closed.

With front sync the preflash and main flash are so close together it is not a problem.

I have no pre-flash when using rear curtain sync. I'm sure there is a custom function disable pre-flash anyway or are you referring to built flash?
 
Rear curtain sync is pretty much like a full stop and the end of a sentence, the flash being the punctuation at the end of the frame.

Nice way of putting it.

Some valid points about subjects assuming that the shots taken, I guess thats down to us to explain so they don't move.
 
I have no pre-flash when using rear curtain sync. I'm sure there is a custom function disable pre-flash anyway or are you referring to built flash?

it is so close to the normal flash you will not see it. Cant be disabled in canon unless you use manual flash I think.

1st curtain is best for me for general shots, people, etc to avoid the blinking.

I might use 2nd curtain for moving stuff though.
 
Nice way of putting it.

Some valid points about subjects assuming that the shots taken, I guess thats down to us to explain so they don't move.

To be fair, I haven't had to tell folk to keep still, there's really no need with using rear sync really, the flash pops and freezes enough of the movement depending on your shutter speed, as long as their not body poppin or doing somersaults like, all should be sharp :thumbs:
 
it is so close to the normal flash you will not see it. Cant be disabled in canon unless you use manual flash I think.

That's a bit of a bummer, There's certainly no pre-flash when using the units off camera.

Edit: no preflash on camera either with Nikon :shrug:
 
I would imagine for a technique called "dragging the shutter" perhaps.

Its where you use a longer exposure to blur/capture the background, then use the flash to freeze the forground.

So you could capture the atmosphere or the lights etc in a club/gig and still freeze the person your shooting in the foreground.

someone else could probably explain it better than I can....

This is exactly why I am looking into it. I have seen some cracking images where there is movement blur behind the subject and the subject is pin sharp, thats what I am trying to achieve.

I'll see if I can find an example.
 
This is exactly why I am looking into it. I have seen some cracking images where there is movement blur behind the subject and the subject is pin sharp, thats what I am trying to achieve.

I'll see if I can find an example.

This might help then


After reading the explanation of the technique, scroll down to 'Adding Motion'. :thumbs:
 
I have no pre-flash when using rear curtain sync. I'm sure there is a custom function disable pre-flash anyway or are you referring to built flash?

Try a test shot using a 1sec shutter speed (or longer) with rear sync.

My Nikon flash, either built in or hot shoe, fires as the shutter button is pressed and again at the end of the exposure. Any shorter shutter speeds and it does not seem to be 2 flashes, but they are there.
 
Try a test shot using a 1sec shutter speed (or longer) with rear sync.

Thanks but I know that I do not have a pre-flash. I'm fully aware what a pre-flash is and how fast they can fire depending on your shutter speeds, but the fact remains that I don not have them.
 
Thanks but I know that I do not have a pre-flash. I'm fully aware what a pre-flash is and how fast they can fire depending on your shutter speeds, but the fact remains that I don not have them.

How do you know then?? Is it becuase your flash is on manual?
 
How do you know then?? Is it becuase your flash is on manual?

Indeed it is but also with SB-800 flash units there are another two modes where pre-flash is disabled.

With ITTL/ETTL it's unavoidable but when using the techniques described above and also considering the OP's question, manual mode is preferred/advised.

I'd suggest to read the links, that chap who's kindly written alot on the subject has a much better way of explaining than I do.
 
That's a bit of a bummer, There's certainly no pre-flash when using the units off camera.

Edit: no preflash on camera either with Nikon :shrug:

I can vouch for that as well - using Nikon with SB800 in rear-curtain sync - no preflashes. In any case on Nikon flashes it can easily be avoided by using TTL without BL (no balanced fill) - you won't need balanced fill flash anyway since the background is already captured by longer exposure and all flash needs to lit really is a subject...
 
Canon flash system is the one thing that REALLY makes me wish I used Nikon. :shrug:
 
Canon flash system is the one thing that REALLY makes me wish I used Nikon. :shrug:

Cue spookie hypnotic voice :suspect:

'Janice....Janice.....the dark side is calling you, everyone makes you cups of tea over in the dark side..the flash systems are better and nicerer....'

:lol: To be honest though, I'd expect Canon are going to buck things up on the flash side anyway, they must have had some damage over the last 14 months and I'm sure they'll fight back with a better system sooner or later, it would be a little silly if they didn't.
 
I'll be using a Speed Light 550EX on a transmitter so no ETTL anyway :)
 
I have some poverty troggers (phottix pt-04's). Can I achieve Second Curtain sync with them?
I have a project in mind but don't know if its possible?
 
Nail. Head. Wallop :thumbs:

Rear curtain sync is pretty much like a full stop and the end of a sentence, the flash being the punctuation at the end of the frame.

No. Sorry Thomas, but that's not right. And while your analogy sounds good, the best time to make a statement in a sentence is at the start, and the full stop is there merely to confirm that the sentence has ended. It does not emphasise anything.

In a photograph, the best time to make a statement is usually as close to the moment that you press the shutter as possible, as that's when you can see what's happening. It's often hard to predict what will happen a fraction of a second later, but if you know the direction of movement for sure, then you can make a decision that second curtain might be better, such as car headlights at night, knowing that the car is moving forward. See the link in yoby's post #7 above.

The guitarist picture you said has second-curtain flash: it could be, but how do you know? It could be either first or second, depending on whether the guitar was being moved up or down, or whether the camera was being moved up or down.


Dalex has also got it wrong in this statement:

"When you fire the flash with at the shutter curtain opening (i.e. front curtain sync) you lit immediately capture the flash lit subject and then continue to capture the unlit areas of the frame (background etc) for the rest of the exposure. This however means that if something happens to your subject during long exposure (it moves away or something will pass in front of it etc) it gets blended with the original flash exposed one. So you may end up with weird looking subject (transparent or some ghosting images through it). With rear curtain sync this does not happen because the flash lit subject is exposed last and effectively overrides what was already exposed in its place on a frame."

The foregoing quote is incorrect, in that it makes no difference to the amount of ghosting whether the flash is fired first or last - the ambient exposure is still there regardless.

Yoby's post #7 is spot on, and a very informative link, too :)

Edit: Janice's point about people blinking with second-curtain flash is probably the most relevant. Our blink reaction time is very quick!
 
Dalex has also got it wrong in this statement:
...
The foregoing quote is incorrect, in that it makes no difference to the amount of ghosting whether the flash is fired first or last - the ambient exposure is still there regardless.
I only said what I experienced - the example I had which made me use rear-sync flash was once I tried to take a picture of two people at the beach after sunset where the surroundings were lit with candles and it was quite dark apart from that. So it was around 16 seconds exposure and I used front-curtain sync initially. After the flash fired at the start of the exposure the couple walked out leaving the camera to finish capturing the surroundings. Guess what - the darker parts of their faces and clothes were semi-transparent on the exposure afterwards... That didn't happen with rear-sync flash which I tried afterwards. I guess what I am saying is that after flash fires initially, the exposure continues to gather in the darker parts of the subject (like hair, clothing etc) so if subjects moves away it may create those ghosting that I was talking about.

Edit: Janice's point about people blinking with second-curtain flash is probably the most relevant. Our blink reaction time is very quick!

This is only relevant if you have a very short exposure - people don't tend to stay with closed eyes for long, do they... So for exposure of second or more this simply does not matter.
 
No. Sorry Thomas, but that's not right. And while your analogy sounds good, the best time to make a statement in a sentence is at the start, and the full stop is there merely to confirm that the sentence has ended. It does not emphasise anything.

You completely misunderstand how I meant that and it seems, read far too much into it. Anyway,

The guitarist picture you said has second-curtain flash: it could be, but how do you know? It could be either first or second, depending on whether the guitar was being moved up or down, or whether the camera was being moved up or down.

Then how come the guys face is crisp? because the flash fired a fraction before the shutter closed. Rear sync.

I'm finding your tone in your post, quite patronizing, is this how you intended it?
 
I only said what I experienced - the example I had which made me use rear-sync flash was once I tried to take a picture of two people at the beach after sunset where the surroundings were lit with candles and it was quite dark apart from that. So it was around 16 seconds exposure and I used front-curtain sync initially. After the flash fired at the start of the exposure the couple walked out leaving the camera to finish capturing the surroundings. Guess what - the darker parts of their faces and clothes were semi-transparent on the exposure afterwards... That didn't happen with rear-sync flash which I tried afterwards.

What you must have experienced is a change in the brightness of the background between the first and second pictures. Maybe this will be clearer if you post them? If there is background exposure due to ambient light, it will always be there whether the flash is fired before or after. The flash coming last doesn't 'wipe it out' in the way that you seem to be implying. Sorry if I've misunderstood you, but the only way to avoid ghosting is to have a completely black background - at all other times, some ghosting will be there no matter what.

This is only relevant if you have a very short exposure - people don't tend to stay with closed eyes for long, do they... So for exposure of second or more this simply does not matter.

I'm not sure what you're saying here about short exposure. The flash is the effective exposure and that is very short indeed. The point is, if you use second curtain flash even with a shutter speed as brief at 1/10sec, then some subjects will instinctively blink when they hear the mirror going up and this happens so fast that their eyes are closed when the flash comes along at the end of the exposure.

This is the main reason why the default setting for flash sync is first curtain. And it's a good reason, and it's also the best moment for other pics too, because the moment you press the release is your best guess at what the subject will look like when the flash fires. But second curtain can be better for creative blur when you know in which direction the subject is moving during the ambient light part of the exposure, so that you can ensure that any blur runs behind the direction of movement, rather than in front of it. Or in whichever direction - your choice.
 
You completely misunderstand how I meant that and it seems, read far too much into it. Anyway,

Then how come the guys face is crisp? because the flash fired a fraction before the shutter closed. Rear sync.

I'm finding your tone in your post, quite patronizing, is this how you intended it?

Sorry mate, I didn't mean to sound patronising at all. I apologise. Just trying to make the point the best way I can.

I don't understand what you're saying about the guy's face being crisp because of second curtain sync. First or second, it makes no odds. What is indicative of curtain sync is the direction of the ambient blur on the guitar, and unless you know whether the guitar was being moved up or down, or the camera was being moved up or down, then there is no way to tell if this was first or second curtain sync.

Basically what I'm saying is that for gig photography when slow-sync technique works really well, because the movement is generally unpredicatble it is better to go with first curtain as that is the best way to get the main subject/framing/expression right, and what follows after during the ambient part of the exposure is left to luck. Don't leave both halves of the exposure to luck.
 
Sorry mate, I didn't mean to sound patronising at all. I apologise. Just trying to make the point the best way I can.

Cool, no worries then. :thumbs:

IMO, movement during long exposures appears to have layers, more recent movement appears on top or maybe it's just more well defined when the flash fires just before the shutter closes. :shrug:
I went for a long while without ever trying rear sync with slow shutter speeds (1/15th, 1/8th and 1/6th for example) but always cursed how movement had a backwards look, rear curtain is more 'chronological' and I've never had blinkers in group portraits either using it.
 
I gotta say peeps, as a noob trying to get my head round this lot, some example pics to back up what people are trying to explain would go a long way to helping!
 
I gotta say peeps, as a noob trying to get my head round this lot, some example pics to back up what people are trying to explain would go a long way to helping!

This is a good link, as posted by yoby earlier. Scroll down to the train pic.Example herel

That shows the effect of firing the flash at the beginning of a long exposure. Flash takes the main pic, then while the shutter is still open but only at a dark lens aperture so only bright areas are recorded, the lights are streaked in a way that looks wrong. If you do it the other way round, so that the streeking occurs first, followed by the flash at the end, it looks better. And if the train was moving backwards, then the effect would also be reversed.

Referring to this guitar picture http://www.gphotography.org.uk/VOiD gallery/VOiD/Solo.html
I'm not sure it is possible to say if it was taken with first or second curtain flash sync without knowing whether the guitar was being moved up or down, or perhaps whether the camera was being moved up or down. Consider the train pic again, turn it 90degs and it's exactly like the guitar moving up or down during the exposure. How can you tell if the train-guitar is moving forwards or backwards up/down?

It's a great effect nonetheless, but always an unpredictable one. And unless you know the direction of the subject's movement, I think it's better to go with first curtain flash sync, because that's your best chance of getting the timing/framing of the main flash image as it was when you pressed the shutter.

Frankly, I don't think first or second curtain synch is a very big deal. It simply makes no difference most of the time. I love slow-sync flash and use it a lot. I also use fill-flash a lot too, for different reasons. But I always use first curtain sync. Well not always, but mostly.

If you want to introduce creative bluring to slow-sync pics, then it is maybe better to move the camera rather than relying on the subject. That way you can make even a static subject appear to move, and by moving the camera, in a certain direction at a certain speed, you can get a reasonably controlled result. Using first curtain sync will increase your hit rate.

And just to reiterate, there is no difference in the amount of ghosting you get with either first or second curtain sync. Ghosting is reduced against a darker background, nothing else. You can always get a darker background by reducing the ambient exposure time, but that can also reduce the impact of the technique, in which case the only way of reducing ghosting is to position your subject against a naturally dark area of background.

Hope this helps a bit :)
 
I gotta say peeps, as a noob trying to get my head round this lot, some example pics to back up what people are trying to explain would go a long way to helping!

Hopefully a nice simple explanation HERE
 
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