Reclaiming VAT

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at the end of the day why don't we all agree to disagree on this, as no one really knows the particulars of another parties business, nor is it really any of our concern. If you feel strongly that someone is evading tax/vat just report them to HMRC - after all they are the experts who will know definitively whether evasion is taking place.
 
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big soft moose said:
at the end of the day why don't we all agree to disagree on this, as no one really knows the particulars of another parties business, nor is it really any of our concern. If you feel strongly that someone is evading tax/vat just report them to HMRC - after all they are the experts who will know definitively whether evasion is taking place.
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Probably the most sensible thing anyone has said in this thread :clap:
 
I would suggest that certain people read the terms and conditions of the off shore supplier they intend to use very carefully
from what I have read of a few of them it states in wording of one form or another that it is our responsibility as the buyer / importer to make sure that it complies with the laws of our country
So like I keep saying if you buy goods from abroad you are the importer and therefor you are liable/ responsible for any duty and taxes
some offer to pay you back theses costs according to the wording of there terms and conditions which is very kind of them
 
Rebel t3i said:
So like I keep saying if you buy goods from abroad you are the importer and therefor you are liable/ responsible for any duty and taxes
some offer to pay you back theses costs according to the wording of there terms and conditions which is very kind of them
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As a matter of interest how does it work if (hypothetically)your granny, who just happens to live in singapore, buys you a canon 5D3 for xmas and posts it to you - are you still liable for import tax or are gifts exempt ?
 
big soft moose said:
As a matter of interest how does it work if (hypothetically)your granny, who just happens to live in singapore, buys you a canon 5D3 for xmas and posts it to you - are you still liable for import tax or are gifts exempt ?
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HMRC

Gifts sent from outside the EU
If you're sending or receiving a gift from outside the EU:
Excise Duty is payable on any alcohol or tobacco products
Customs Duty is payable if the value of the gift exceeds £135, but will be waived if the amount of duty is £9 or under
import VAT is payable if the value of the gift exceeds £40
To qualify as a gift:
It must have been sent from a private person outside the EU to a private person(s) in the UK.
The Customs Declaration must be completed correctly – see guidance on the customs procedures for goods posted to the UK link below.
It must be for the use of either you or your family.
There must be no commercial or trade element and it must not have been paid for by the recipient either directly or indirectly.
It must be of an occasional nature only - for example for a birthday or anniversary.
If it's perfume or toilet water it must be within the allowances described in the earlier section 'Perfume and toilet water'. If the allowances are exceeded than charges apply on the excess.
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big soft moose said:
As a matter of interest how does it work if (hypothetically)your granny, who just happens to live in singapore, buys you a canon 5D3 for xmas and posts it to you - are you still liable for import tax or are gifts exempt ?
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as far as i am aware gifts have a value limit above which duty and taxes will apply
these values are typically quite low
I bought 8 low value items from ebay from hong kong from the same supplier
the items arrived in two separate packages 7 in one and 1 in the other
values of goods and description declared correctly on the shipping documents, these were not marked as gifts either
so it appears that there is no quantity limit just a single parcel / package limit
however if I had ordered 20,000 of these low cost items and they had been delivered in separate deliveries of 7 per parcel I doubt they would have been import tax free
 
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big soft moose said:
As a matter of interest how does it work if (hypothetically)your granny, who just happens to live in singapore, buys you a canon 5D3 for xmas and posts it to you - are you still liable for import tax or are gifts exempt ?
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Yes you are still liable. All goods, apart from some exemptions such as children's clothing etc, have to have VAT paid on them; either at time of purchase or on import. The only exception is your personal duty free allowance, which I think still stands at £300, and is non transferable; ie you actually have to do the travelling yourself.
 
so Graham, seeing as we are talking about business right and wrongs, is only taking paypal gift also evading the right and proper means of taking payment and paying paypals 'tax' on that? Did you have a vat number or register your company, declaring all your imports and paying the appropriate taxed when you were flogging Chinese Charlies Cheap 'n' Cheerful Lighting Accessories?
 
Unless I'm so rusty at the VAT rules I would ask if anyone really knows whether Panamoz's income has reached the VAT threshold. Now, we don't know that, do we? Not as a matter of certainty anyway. If their turnover is under the VAT threshold then they do not have to register for VAT and can choose to sell at a rate they wish and at that, a rate which incidentally seems to be very acceptable to many of us.

With respect to whether they may have paid VAT and duty when bringing the goods in, I dare say that if they did ship in some volume, it would be highly difficult to avoid having to account for VAT and duty when their consignment is landed. Unless of course, they may be bringing in 5D3s and a host of lenses by suitcase.....:shrug:


Apologies for extending this discussion to it's 8th page :D
 
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you are right on the former, on the latter point panamoz have been labelling stuff as toy parts and so forth to avoid customs which is a bit dodgy - but technically their customers are equally culpable in not reporting the wrongly labled goods to hmrc and voluntarily paying the duty due
 
big soft moose said:
you are right on the former, on the latter point panamoz have been labelling stuff as toy parts and so forth to avoid customs which is a bit dodgy - but technically their customers are equally culpable in not reporting the wrongly labled goods to hmrc and voluntarily paying the duty due
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for me, this is the key issue, people are happy to buy from hong kong, but wont declare the goods. If they did, then there wouldnt be a trade from that region.
 
matty said:
so Graham, seeing as we are talking about business right and wrongs, is only taking paypal gift also evading the right and proper means of taking payment and paying paypals 'tax' on that? Did you have a vat number or register your company, declaring all your imports and paying the appropriate taxed when you were flogging Chinese Charlies Cheap 'n' Cheerful Lighting Accessories?
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oopps
 
tiler65 said:
It clearly states in their T&C's

No, all import taxes/duties/VAT are covered by us. We are responsible for all additional tax charges. The price you see when you place an order with us, is all you have to pay. The price displayed for items sold by Panamoz Electronics are inclusive.

The words inclusive and VAT in the same condition point.

So all they have to do is change their wording then and everything is hunky dory.
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I refer you to your last sentence ;)
 
B1ts said:
I refer you to your last sentence ;)
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You don't need to tell me, I know.

Seems that they have been watching this thread. It has now been changed. It is still ambiguous though.
 
tiler65 said:
You don't need to tell me, I know.

Seems that they have been watching this thread. It has now been changed. It is still ambiguous though.
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Precisely and that ambiguity is where you and others have put the legal meaning in their mouths, they have been and as you say, still are being v clever at avoiding the specifics of saying they actually include vast in the price to you and therefore are collecting from you any element of vat.
This is an important point as the assumption of meaning is how most .hk importers get away with it by blindsidibg the purchaser into a misunderstanding.
 
tiler65 said:
Seems that they have been watching this thread. It has now been changed. It is still ambiguous though.
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Sorry, I must have missed something. What bit of their FAQ has been changed since this thread was started?
 
domino1999 said:
Sorry, I must have missed something. What bit of their FAQ has been changed since this thread was started?
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Read through this thread...it has been done a few posts up...I ain't working for nobody but myself tonight.
 
tiler65 said:
Read through this thread...it has been done a few posts up...I ain't working for nobody but myself tonight.
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I've been participating in this thread from the start and read through it again before my last post, but still can't see what's been changed. Maybe I'm going blind :(

Perhaps someone (other than Tom) would be kind enough to point out the relevant post #'s which show the before and after of the FAQ in question?
 
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big soft moose said:
you are right on the former, on the latter point panamoz have been labelling stuff as toy parts and so forth to avoid customs which is a bit dodgy - but technically their customers are equally culpable in not reporting the wrongly labled goods to hmrc and voluntarily paying the duty due
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But wait a moment - are the equipment not shipped to customers from a UK address? If that is the case then the declaration labels wouldn't be on the packages and buyers could claim to be unaware of any tax or duty not being paid on landed goods. I haven't bought from Panamoz so I don't know.


Another point is that buyers are naturally looking to get the lowest price for a given product. Even if you buy from Digital Rev and somehow manage not to be caught in the customs net, there surely is no requirement for yourself to bring this to the attention of the authorities, is there?

And while I don't have chapter and verse on this, are you allowed to bring in goods at an airport which are for personal use and which therefore are not subject to such surcharges? I appreciate having the goods shipped to you by post from abroad is an altogether different affair.


I feel a 9th page in the making LOL
 
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Houston1863 said:
But wait a moment - are the equipment not shipped to customers from a UK address? If that is the case then the declaration labels wouldn't be on the packages and buyers could claim to be unaware of any tax or duty not being paid on landed goods. I haven't bought from Panamoz so I don't know.
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no - panamoz don't ship from a uk warehouse - I understand (Ive not bought from them either) that parcels arrive direct from hong kong mislabelled as toyparts etc

Houston1863 said:
Another point is that buyers are naturally looking to get the lowest price for a given product. Even if you buy from Digital Rev and somehow manage not to be caught in the customs net, there surely is no requirement for yourself to bring this to the attention of the authorities, is there?
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depends what you mean by requirement - would you report yourself to the authorities for speeding ? - of course most people wouldnt, but the point i was making was that if you choose to go along with the misdescription of goods you are as culpable as panamoz (or whoever) , and therefore they are no more to blame than the customer who gets a cheap price by evading import charges

Houston1863 said:
And while I don't have chapter and verse on this, are you allowed to bring in goods at an airport which are for personal use
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not if you bought them overseas and they are above a certain value
 
My 2p

Sekonic Flash Master L-358 Digital Light/Flash Meter [panamoz.com]

Panamoz said:
Price includes VAT and Duties
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If this is true and the price on this product includes VAT and duty, they must therefore be registered for VAT with HMRC for trading with the UK. If they were trading below the threshold for VAT, they could not claim to include VAT in their price.

VAT invoices: what they must show [HMRC]

HMRC said:
When a VAT invoice must be issued

If you are registered for VAT you must give any VAT-registered customers a VAT invoice for any standard-rated or reduced-rated goods or services you sell them.

If you are a retailer, you do not need to issue a VAT invoice or receipt unless your customer asks for one.

As a VAT-registered supplier, you may be liable to a fine if you do not issue a VAT invoice for a supply you have made when asked to do so by a VAT-registered customer.

There is a time limit within which VAT invoices must be issued – see the section in this guide on time limits for issuing VAT invoices.
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Back to Panamoz's FAQ

Panamoz FAQ said:
7. Are you able to issue a VAT invoice?

Please note we don't provide this service currently.
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So, something doesn't add up.
 
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some terms and conditions copied and pasted from a Hong Kong seller which seem a bit more small print like


"By purchasing a product through the site, you agree that such purchase and the import of such product complies with the laws of the country to which you have requested ******* Limited to ship the product, and agree that you will be considered the sole "Importer" of the product to your country for all purposes, including customs regulations and copyright and trademark laws. You acknowledge and agree that ***** Limited's role is limited to procuring products available in Hong Kong and other regions and making these products available through the site to you for purchase in Hong Kong and for your import to your country. In no event will ******* Limited be a party to the import of such products nor will it be responsible for any liability arising under the laws of any country other than Hong Kong Special Administrative Region for the import and sale of products available on the site, including without limitation customs regulations and customs holds, detentions and seizures and copyright and trademark laws".
 
Is this still going on? Great bit of trolling from graham, ignoring the questions asked of him simply proves it.

If you have a problem with any Of the companies that operate from Hong Kong or anywhere else, then take it up with them. If you think you are paying vat when you buy from there and that its 100% vat included and all your import taxes etc are all paid, then can I interest you in some magic beans?
 
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