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Sidney77

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Hello all I'm new and wanted to say hello and seek advice.
I've been doing photography for about 3 years now and still feel a beginner but have managed to get a few gigs with birthdays, Christenins and have a wedding next year.
(I don't charge as I do it for the love and sometimes they will donate something)
Well I'm currently using a Canon 650D and have a few capable lenses but I would like some advice on moving up to full frame. In a perfect world I would like the 5D Mark iii, but life and kids prohibit this.

I don't have a massive budget but any ideas what would be an improvement on the 650D would be good.

Tl;dr... best cheap full frame camera

Many thanks
 
If you were to give an indication of your budget and what lenses you have that would give people a better chance at answering your question
 
well currently have a Canon 24-105 F4 , the 18-55 & 55-250 kit lenses the "nifty 50 1.8" probably looking around the £600 mark for a used Full Frame
 
I think I am correct but please check,the 18-55 and 55-250 are EF-S lenses and will not fit FF so you will need to replace them .
If you intend doing weddings even the 24-105 is not really fast enough so you might be better looking at 3rd party lenses if you want to go FF within your budget
 
well aware, I shall be borrowing a 24-70 2.8 + 50mm 1.2 and currently buying a canon 70-200 2.8 when I find one at the right price.
 
I can't understand why you'd shoot other people's weddings, birthdays etc for free, and want to get better equipment to continue to shoot for free. Does it make financial sense? You can still do it for the love and charge
 
A lot of negativity here from people that presumably charge and don't want someone doing it for free. Could be wrong, but that's very much how it looks.

Don't forget that a huge number of pros shot with 5D2s for a very long time before 5D3 and 6D appeared - just because it's older doesn't make it a dinosaur and unusable - in even similarly capable hands, you're likely to be able to produce similar results to a 5D3.

You may be able to get a decent copy of a 1Ds2. They're your full frame options really, unless you want to go back to the original 5D (commonly referred to online now as 5Dc).

Ditch the 650D and EF-S lenses, that's got to be your first target. Use your 24-105 and 50/1.8 with whatever FF body you get, saving for fast glass.
 
UKmitch86 said:
A lot of negativity here from people that presumably charge and don't want someone doing it for free. Could be wrong, but that's very much how it looks.
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Not 'a lot', there was one post, and it asked why, didn't say don't. Why suggest otherwise? :thinking:

The nightmare threads are usually fuelled by people who like to troll the pros in my experience :)

As for the 5dII?

Unless you find a beat up one, they're a comparable price to the 6d which is loads better value.


I've no issue with people shooting 'pro' work for nothing, they'll soon realise it's hard work and either start charging proper fees or quit. (And I've seen thousands over the years. There's no such thing as a happy amateur shooting 20 weddings a year for free for five years)
 
Phil V said:
Not 'a lot', there was one post, and it asked why, didn't say don't. Why suggest otherwise? :thinking:
The nightmare threads are usually fuelled by people who like to troll the pros in my experience :)
As for the 5dII?
Unless you find a beat up one, they're a comparable price to the 6d which is loads better value.
I've no issue with people shooting 'pro' work for nothing, they'll soon realise it's hard work and either start charging proper fees or quit. (And I've seen thousands over the years. There's no such thing as a happy amateur shooting 20 weddings a year for free for five years)
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I won't win here :)
 
What about a medium telephoto like the canon 70-200 F4? A colleague at work has one of these and rates it very highly, he has the f4 version.
 
Thanks for the feedback everyone. It now looks like I have about £1000 for a "new" camera. I have posted on another page that I am looking at either the 6D or the 1Ds mk iii.
(Mitch has given me some great feedback on this)

I know some of you think that I am odd for doing the things I do for free, but I genuinely love doing it. This is not my real job (obviously) but I am a well paid engineer and Photography is my hobby. I don't advertise my services anywhere nor do I day that I am a photographer, I just post my pictures on facebook and people have approached me. I enjoy doing It to make people happy.

[side note, before I was an engineer I trained as a chef, I didn't enjoy cooking that much, but enjoyed to compliments I got from customers ]

So money / cost isn't as issues with me, but I am not going to just throw money at lenses and camera bodies. This is my play money and photography makes me happy.

When I feel I am good enough I may start charging , but it won't be the standard rate that I see from real ProTogs as that isn't me.
 
As it stands I have 3 weddings in the next year and will just enjoy building my skill level, portfolio and kit.

Then the wish list will be a
Canon 50mm 1.2
Canon 24-70 2.8
Canon 70-200
And a Sigma 150-600 as I like bird/animal pics

Then a NEW body.

But as long as the shutter count is low and in good working order and fine with a sturdy secondhand body.
 
Sidney77 said:
As it stands I have 3 weddings in the next year and will just enjoy building my skill level, portfolio and kit.

Then the wish list will be a
Canon 50mm 1.2
Canon 24-70 2.8
Canon 70-200
And a Sigma 150-600 as I like bird/animal pics

Then a NEW body.

But as long as the shutter count is low and in good working order and fine with a sturdy secondhand body.
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Unless you're attached to the 650D and EF-S lenses, there's no reason why you can't trade it it now for a used FF system. The borrowed lenses will be fine to run on for the weddings, and for your own enjoyment, stick with the 50/1.8 alone, you'll learn a lot.

Try to lay your hands on a 135/2, FOV takes some getting used to, but lovely bit of glass.
 
Sidney77 said:
As it stands I have 3 weddings in the next year and will just enjoy building my skill level, portfolio and kit.

Then the wish list will be a
Canon 50mm 1.2
Canon 24-70 2.8
Canon 70-200
And a Sigma 150-600 as I like bird/animal pics
Click to expand...

Just FWIW, allow me to point out that you definitely don't need the 70-200 for weddings. For other stuff, maybe. Weddings, nope.
 
Sidney77 said:
As it stands I have 3 weddings in the next year and will just enjoy building my skill level, portfolio and kit.

Then the wish list will be a
Canon 50mm 1.2
Canon 24-70 2.8
Canon 70-200
And a Sigma 150-600 as I like bird/animal pics

Then a NEW body.

But as long as the shutter count is low and in good working order and fine with a sturdy secondhand body.
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TBH if you have to talk about "building my skill level, portfolio and kit..." then you are NOT ready to take on ANY weddings if you are there as the main photographer.

If you are acting as a Professional Photographer you need to KNOW your kit will give you exactly the results you want.

And you also have to be very adept at PP to get the best from the pictures you have taken.

And I would also say that the best kit for you would be a FF camera, the 50mm 1.2 for indoors ( but you may have trouble with focussing due to the small DOF at large apertures) and the 24-70mm f2.8.

That would be ideal for weddings and the first purchases you should make.

And keep your present camera as backup - because if something CAN go wrong, sooner or later it WILL go wrong!
 
petersmart said:
TBH if you have to talk about "building my skill level, portfolio and kit..." then you are NOT ready to take on ANY weddings if you are there as the main photographer.

If you are acting as a Professional Photographer you need to KNOW your kit will give you exactly the results you want.

And you also have to be very adept at PP to get the best from the pictures you have taken.

And I would also say that the best kit for you would be a FF camera, the 50mm 1.2 for indoors ( but you may have trouble with focussing due to the small DOF at large apertures) and the 24-70mm f2.8.

That would be ideal for weddings and the first purchases you should make.

And keep your present camera as backup - because if something CAN go wrong, sooner or later it WILL go wrong!
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OK ... you either didn't read anything else I wrote or took my last message out of context.

The "list" is the lenses I want for my own personal use. Not what I think I need for a wedding.

I AM NOT A WEDDING OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF PHOTOGRAPHER. I have stated this. I have done a few events for people that like the type of pictures that I take and they have asked me to take pictures. These are people who can't afford to hire a photographer and I am more than happy to do it for free. I did it once as a favour and then that person recommended me to others and this is how I started.
 
Sidney77 said:
OK ... you either didn't read anything else I wrote or took my last message out of context.

The "list" is the lenses I want for my own personal use. Not what I think I need for a wedding.

I AM NOT A WEDDING OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF PHOTOGRAPHER. I have stated this. I have done a few events for people that like the type of pictures that I take and they have asked me to take pictures. These are people who can't afford to hire a photographer and I am more than happy to do it for free. I did it once as a favour and then that person recommended me to others and this is how I started.
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I'm sorry if I misunderstood you but as you said "As it stands I have 3 weddings in the next year and will just enjoy building my skill level, portfolio and kit..." I assumed that the kit you were talking about building up would be for weddings which is why I gave the advice I did.

Unfortunately the problem with doing a wedding is that if even one goes wrong you will simply get a very bad reputation very quickly and an enormous amount of flak.

And it won't matter that you were doing it for free because they will still expect the quality of photographs they see on the media.
 
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petersmart said:
I'm sorry if I misunderstood you but as you said "As it stands I have 3 weddings in the next year and will just enjoy building my skill level, portfolio and kit..." I assumed that the kit you were talking about building up would be for weddings which is why I gave the advice I did.

Unfortunately the problem with doing a wedding is that if even one goes wrong you will simply get a very bad reputation very quickly and an enormous amount of flak.

And it won't matter that you were doing it for free because they will still expect the quality of photographs they see on the media.
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No they don't expect what they see in the media, they expect what I say I will offer them. I offer my service to people that can't afford a photographer, these are the sort of people who are happy to just have there friends take pics with their iPhones and they save them from Facebook.

I am giving them something extra and for free and so far everyone has given me an overwhelming positive response. I am not looking to do this professionally I do it because I like doing it.

And Oh No if "something" goes wrong, I'll just have to carry on using my Masters in Engineering and actual job.... that I also like doing ... and pays very well.

I'm in a win-win situation. I like taking pictures and being around people and people invite me to join their family and friends to share their special day with them.

Also the advice I was looking for was a cheap full-frame camera.
 
Sidney77 said:
And Oh No if "something" goes wrong, I'll just have to carry on using my Masters in Engineering and actual job.... that I also like doing ... and pays very well.
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As above I'm not knocking anyone shooting for free, but you're an intelligent bloke who's clearly missed some key points about the media.

If something goes wrong, you will be plastered all over the tabloids. The fact that you don't charge, or charge little is irrelevant.

Of the dozen 'photographer ruined my wedding day' stories I'm familiar with, only one was about a photographer charging something close to average rates.

Shoot what you want when you want, but please don't fall into the trap of 'I'm not charging much so they can't expect much'.

If I shoot for free or for mates rates, the customer still gets exactly the same level of service, anything else is disrespectful.
 
PLEASE EXCUSE OR PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE CAPS (depending if it is directed towards you)

I AM NOT OFFERING MYSELF AS A PHOTOGRAPHER, I DON'T ADVERTISE MYSELF AS A PHOTOGRAPHER, I HAVE NEVER SAID ANYWHERE THAT I AM A PHOTOGRAPHER. I TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS AND PEOPLE LIKE MY PHOTOGRAPHS.

PEOPLE ASK IF I CAN TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS FOR THEM AND I SAY THAT I CAN.

MY QUALITY IS THE SAME WHATEVER I DO. I ALWAYS GIVE THEM THE QUALITY AS OF IT WAS FOR A PAID JOB. MY SKILLS WITH LIGHTROOM AND PHOTOSHOP ARE ALSO PRETTY GOOD.

THEY ALWAYS GET A QUALITY FINISHED PRODUCT. THEY ARE ALWAYS HAPPY WITH THE FINISHED PRODUCT.

THIS FINISHED PRODUCT IS CURRENTLY BEING CREATED WITH A CANON 650D, MY LENSES AND SOMETIMES SOME BORROWED.

SO IF YOU STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND.

I ASKED AN OPTION ABOUT A GOOD CHEAP FULL FRAME CAMERA. AND THANK YOU PHIL AS YOU HAVE ALREADY COMMENTED WITH A 6D.
 
OP. Whilst I can see your side, insofar as you sought advise about equipment, don't be a jerk and ignore the other advise about the fact that despite your good intentions you could still fall foul of bad 'press' or worse, being sued.

Doing something for nothing does not protect you from idiots. I'd suggest that you should go down the route of drawing up contracts, etc, and include the fee for the service as £0.

As it stands you do not appear to be a business, certainly not a limited one, and therefore if someone did decide to sue, and won, it's your personal assets that are on the line. What you charge (or not) is beside the point. You're offering a service and if you fail to provide it to the reasonable (to them) expectation of the customer then you're in the firing line!

Shouting (capitalisation) at people who have put themselves out to offer advise does not win you friends here. Just ignore the advise if you must.
 
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I'm sorry you didn't want to get into this.

But every nightmare wedding photography story stars from the same place, and like I said they very rarely concern people who would consider themselves a 'professional wedding photographer', but that's not the view of the client when something goes wrong. This isn't about your intention, it's about preparation for the s*** and the fan combining. At the very least - a 2nd camera body and std lens is essential.

Putting your fingers in your ears shouting LA LA LA and hoping it wont happen to you will make no difference whatsoever and frankly doesn't reflect well :)
 
I challange anyone here to find a situation and and story that matches mine. None of you have any idea who I am, or who I take photos for.

I am attending these events as a guest who takes pictures. They have more chance of getting the Real Elvis to perform the service than they do suing me.

THIS IS NOT A BUSINESS, THIS WILL NEVER BE A BUSINESS.

It's starting to look like Mitch was right.
Bitterness and Scaremongering that I'm doing something for free.

I asked a recommendation on a full frame camera and you lot come back with contracts and legal advice. I got the answer I was looking for ...a Canon 6D. Thanks, I'll take that on board.
 
Sidney77 said:
I asked a recommendation on a full frame camera and you lot come back with contracts and legal advice. I got the answer I was looking for ...a Canon 6D. Thanks, I'll take that on board.
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... a camera because you primarily like(d) doing weddings and you may have had 1 booked or 3 booked for next year, you dropped "names" by saying how many degrees you got and that you earn enough, and you must have the last word in the argument. People go by what they remember from a discussion instead of scrutinising precisely what has been written. The discussion went in a direction you did not like but you rose often enough to defend what you were doing or whatever instead of trying to return to the camera question. I am really sorry I have no experience of Canon or full frame (as my handle may suggest) to make a camera recommendation to you. All I can suggest to you as a newbie here (as I am a newbie too) keep calm and don't get in an unnecessary argument. In a few days you might have identified two cameras and want some advice on which one to opt for, it is worth making friends.
 
You don't need to be a business to get sued..

You have 3 weddings booked in to be the photographer? Then if things go tits up its their wedding with no photos even if you can just go back to the day job
 
AdamTudor said:
You don't need to be a business to get sued..

You have 3 weddings booked in to be the photographer? Then if things go tits up its their wedding with no photos even if you can just go back to the day job
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If I may add, it would depend what sort of contract the wedding couple may have had with their volunteer photographer, and what - if any - level of expectation they could demonstrate at court.

IANAL.
 
As I've read it there is no contract, and the bookings were based on good images being seen/word of mouth. So hopefully he has protected himself a bit on this...
 
AdamTudor said:
You don't need to be a business to get sued..

You have 3 weddings booked in to be the photographer? Then if things go tits up its their wedding with no photos even if you can just go back to the day job
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No I have 3 weddings where I have been told basically the same thing.

"We are having a low key event and not bothering with a photographer for the day as so many people take photos on their phone. Could you bring your Big Camera and take some pics for us on the day?"

To which I say; "Yes"
 
Sidney77 said:
No I have 3 weddings where I have been told basically the same thing.

"We are having a low key event and not bothering with a photographer for the day as so many people take photos on their phone. Could you bring your Big Camera and take some pics for us on the day?"

To which I say; "Yes"
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That sounds quite reasonable.
 
AdamTudor said:
As I've read it there is no contract, and the bookings were based on good images being seen/word of mouth. So hopefully he has protected himself a bit on this...
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Yes ... these people are friends or at least people I know. They ask me by saying "so-and-so said this, or I saw you Facebook pics, would you do the same for us?"
The verbal agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on.
 
Here is my final point.

I can't repeat again how much I truly enjoy doing what I do. I pretty much off my own back give them a free Album with high quality photos, with lots of time dedicated to post production also.

See the thing is, they think they are trying to use me. It's like when you invite a mate who can DJ to a party and he just does the music. The bride thinks that if she flutters her eyelashes that I'll do the same sort of picture that I have done in the past for her friend. So they ask me because they think they can get something for free.

The thing is I would do it however I was asked. Yes I'm would like to get a portfolio of all the stuff I have done, but you can only photograph what is in front of you. so for me I can an invite to a wedding to do something that I enjoy doing around people I usually know or like. I then pick about 20 of my favourite pics that I have PP'd and stick them in an little photo album. And with that album they get a flash drive with every RAW photo I have taken for them to do with what they like. The whole thing probably costs me less than £20 (cheaper than a wedding present)

So I get to do what I enjoy and they get something for nothing.

If you still think I'm subject to Bad Press and open to being sued after still reading this than I really have nothing more to say.

Thank you for you input
 
Sidney77 said:
I challange anyone here to find a situation and and story that matches mine. None of you have any idea who I am, or who I take photos for.

I am attending these events as a guest who takes pictures. They have more chance of getting the Real Elvis to perform the service than they do suing me....
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It's great that you are doing something you love and it's great you are helping people. I do think you've slightly taken the comments the wrong way insomuch that you are not considering there 'may' be another side to what you are giving.

You are of course correct that it is incredibly unlikely that you would ever be sued, but I think you are incorrect in believing they have more chance of Elvis turning up than successfully suing you. The simple fact is as a guest or not if you have talked with them before hand and agreed they will get some pictures you are at risk if things went wrong.

I don't doubt your generosity or motives, I'm starting a 'free service' myself making portraits for families with disabled and terminally ill children, hey will get the session and prints for free without some catch to buy more prints at the end, but trust me every single one will also be signing an agreement with me before hand. The reality is in my case I could most likely do the sitting again if I go went wrong or they could go elsewhere and pay, with a wedding day if 'things went wrong' they can't easily do it all again.

I'm pretty sure that's all anyone wanted you to be aware of. Sure there will be people out there who don't want you to do it for free, I don't believe anyone in here cares if you charge or not and they certainly have no need to be jealous or bitter. The point was you didn't see the potential issue of things going wrong. All you need to do is sign an agreement with them, and then they know exactly where they stand. If you are doing it purely as a guest with a few pics then it's a pointless discussion, however if you are the main photographer (guest or not) and have the job of making pictures from their big day then you need to protect yourself.

Keeping your current camera as an emergency spare is a good idea, most wedding photographers will use two cameras during the day for speed and convenience and the second is also a backup, but many of them would have a third on the car. Cameras pack up, lenses do too, I was reading something a week or so ago from a guy who was at a wedding and two lenses packed up within half an hour of each other. What are the chances? No idea, but it happened. He had other lenses, not what he wanted but he was able to get by.

There is a really good chance that if the camera packed up you could put your hand up and say 'sorry guys, I can't carry on as my camera has died' and everyone would say it's fine and not to worry. But what if they didn't? If it got to court would you win? Maybe Elvis could be your lawyer ;)

My first few posts here were spent arguing too, but it's not a bad place, people are just passionate and have seen so much of the same stuff before, too many have come before you doing weddings cheap or free and getting it wrong, heck some charge a fortune and mess it up, don't take it so personally. People were genuinely trying to caution you that things can go wrong, even if you believe you are bullet proof I wouldn't want to test my verbal contract in a court of law facing an angry bride and her p***ed off parents. You are a clever guy, surely you realise the world isn't perfect and people sue anyone for anything. As an engineer you understand the importance of finite details, so make sure you have every angle checked and you won't have any issues.

Best of luck with your adventure.

Oh, and the 6D would be a great choice :)
 
Sidney77 said:
No I have 3 weddings where I have been told basically the same thing.

"We are having a low key event and not bothering with a photographer for the day as so many people take photos on their phone. Could you bring your Big Camera and take some pics for us on the day?"

To which I say; "Yes"
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I'm in the same boat. Some of the responses on here are totally over the top, given your situation.

If people want pro snaps of their wedding day, they'll pay for a pro.

The fact that someone is there for free, with their dslr and taking better than average snaps of the special day is exactly what they want in my experience.

I do the same, I enjoy it, I'll carry on doing it too.

If what people are saying on here is right, anyone taking photos (even on mobile phones) are open to being sued. That's just barmy.
 
LizTheKid said:
I'm in the same boat. Some of the responses on here are totally over the top, given your situation.

If people want pro snaps of their wedding day, they'll pay for a pro.

The fact that someone is there for free, with their dslr and taking better than average snaps of the special day is exactly what they want in my experience.

I do the same, I enjoy it, I'll carry on doing it too.

If what people are saying on here is right, anyone taking photos (even on mobile phones) are open to being sued. That's just barmy.
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That's not what people are saying.

But having a strong belief and not wanting to read the facts is a common enough characteristic.

If you really want to make your own mind up, read all the Daily Mail 'wedding photographer ruined my life' stories, you'll see that generally speaking, the photographers 'business model' is closer to yours than mine.
 
I understand entirely what you're getting at Phil, as does the OP I'm sure. But turning up as a guest with a camera does not translate to being "the wedding photographer". Especially if expectations are managed and the happy couple understand you are just a guest with a camera.. Like all the others with mobile phones.

If people are that precious about the photo's, a pro will be hired.

As a guest, the photos I capture inevitably become less graceful through the day as the booze takes hold. This adds to the ambience, but probably not the quality. I've still only ever had positive feedback and overwhelming appreciation for making that bit of extra effort for the special day.
 
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