Referees

[ShinySideUp]

Watching the snooker from China today made me a little irritated by the attitude of players to the referees. Someone will win a match and then shake hands with their opponent but when the referee offers their hand, the winner, and often the opponent too, will make a cursory effort without even looking at the ref in most cases; I think it is very rude. And this is snooker, where generally games are without too much contention, in football, not only are they rude to the referees, they are downright abusive in many cases. These insensitive and dismissive attitudes to referees are what young, impressionable people see as normal and it is just not good enough. Manners cost nothing. A referee (without VAR) is not going to change their minds about a decision, so players should just stop moaning and get on with the game, if it was a mistake, they might be the next to benefit if the ref makes another; they are not infallible.

Most sports could learn a lot from rugby where the players, in the vast majority of cases, accept the referee's judgements and are respectful of their authority.

Rant over.

 

[Pound Coin]

Rugby is quite a lot because of the laws of the game. Only the Captain can speak to the ref.

 

[cambsno]

Watching the snooker from China today made me a little irritated by the attitude of players to the referees. Someone will win a match and then shake hands with their opponent but when the referee offers their hand, the winner, and often the opponent too, will make a cursory effort without even looking at the ref in most cases; I think it is very rude. And this is snooker, where generally games are without too much contention, in football, not only are they rude to the referees, they are downright abusive in many cases. These insensitive and dismissive attitudes to referees are what young, impressionable people see as normal and it is just not good enough. Manners cost nothing. A referee (without VAR) is not going to change their minds about a decision, so players should just stop moaning and get on with the game, if it was a mistake, they might be the next to benefit if the ref makes another; they are not infallible.

Most sports could learn a lot from rugby where the players, in the vast majority of cases, accept the referee's judgements and are respectful of their authority.

Rant over.

The reason for that is to put some doubt in the refs head, so when there is a 50/50 or even a 40/40 decision they may be more likely to get the benefit of that decision. Also in football there are too many poor decisions.

 

[ShinySideUp]

Rugby is quite a lot because of the laws of the game. Only the Captain can speak to the ref.

Indeed, an example to follow, I feel, but as far as football and the FA and FIFA in particular, I don't think that's going to happen any time soon. They are back-tracking on the sin bin that lower echelons are trialling, which is a shame because 8 minutes off the field is a far greater deterrent to bad behaviour than a yellow card that might have no effect for weeks or even months.

From the TalkSport website regarding 2023/24 season:

Any Premier League star who accumulates five cautions inside the first 19 league games of the season will be suspended for one match.

Crucially, yellow card bans - unlike reds - no longer carry over into either of the domestic competitions or indeed Europe.

The 19-game mark offers players a slight reprieve, but suspensions then become more severe if 10 yellow cards are racked up.

Those who have double-figure cautions to their name before, and including, the 32nd game of the season will be suspended for a further two games.

Five cautions in 19 games and get stopped one match, ooh ouch, that's harsh! (Sarcasm) and don't worry, you can still play in Europe and the FA cup. Eight minutes in the sin bin immediately would have a much more sobering effect on players I think and give referees a lot more authority.

 

[ShinySideUp]

The reason for that is to put some doubt in the refs head, so when there is a 50/50 or even a 40/40 decision they may be more likely to get the benefit of that decision. Also in football there are too many poor decisions.

A referee can't see everything, that's why they have linesmen (sorry, assistant referees, showing my age now) and it's only a bad decision for the team that loses out and that's likely to happen to both teams during a match so the game will be largely equal. They seem to manage in the lower leagues where VAR is not available (of course, there isn't as much money in it there (cynicism).

 

[Pound Coin]

Sin bins would significantly reduce cynical fouls in the last ten minutes of a match.

 

[cambsno]

Indeed, an example to follow, I feel, but as far as football and the FA and FIFA in particular, I don't think that's going to happen any time soon. They are back-tracking on the sin bin that lower echelons are trialling, which is a shame because 8 minutes off the field is a far greater deterrent to bad behaviour than a yellow card that might have no effect for weeks or even months.

From the TalkSport website regarding 2023/24 season:

Any Premier League star who accumulates five cautions inside the first 19 league games of the season will be suspended for one match.

Crucially, yellow card bans - unlike reds - no longer carry over into either of the domestic competitions or indeed Europe.

The 19-game mark offers players a slight reprieve, but suspensions then become more severe if 10 yellow cards are racked up.

Those who have double-figure cautions to their name before, and including, the 32nd game of the season will be suspended for a further two games.

Five cautions in 19 games and get stopped one match, ooh ouch, that's harsh! (Sarcasm) and don't worry, you can still play in Europe and the FA cup. Eight minutes in the sin bin immediately would have a much more sobering effect on players I think and give referees a lot more authority.

Agree - Sin Bin would be great, especially for players that get a yellow card in last 10-15 mins so unlikely to get a 2nd

 

[cambsno]

A referee can't see everything, that's why they have linesmen (sorry, assistant referees, showing my age now) and it's only a bad decision for the team that loses out and that's likely to happen to both teams during a match so the game will be largely equal. They seem to manage in the lower leagues where VAR is not available (of course, there isn't as much money in it there (cynicism).

I watch L1 football most weeks, overall its poor. Linos barely flag for anything other than offside and throws. Totally blatent corners given as goal kicks and vice versa. Defenders clambering all over striker is no foul and lots of inconsistencies like a yellow give for a minor foul and nothing for a more serious. Its the latter that is the issue. Also overall lack of enforcement of rules like a team is winning, makes subs and they walk slowly across field rather than off the nearest side and walk round

 

[Dave Canon]

Watching the snooker from China today made me a little irritated by the attitude of players to the referees. Someone will win a match and then shake hands with their opponent but when the referee offers their hand, the winner, and often the opponent too, will make a cursory effort without even looking at the ref in most cases; I think it is very rude. And this is snooker, where generally games are without too much contention, in football, not only are they rude to the referees, they are downright abusive in many cases. These insensitive and dismissive attitudes to referees are what young, impressionable people see as normal and it is just not good enough. Manners cost nothing. A referee (without VAR) is not going to change their minds about a decision, so players should just stop moaning and get on with the game, if it was a mistake, they might be the next to benefit if the ref makes another; they are not infallible.

Most sports could learn a lot from rugby where the players, in the vast majority of cases, accept the referee's judgements and are respectful of their authority.

Rant over.

I have always followed Rugby and did go to a talk by an international Rugby Referee. I did ask him why were rugby players relatively more respectful to referees that are footballers. He suggested that the Rules of Rugby Union are rather complex and regularly change so few players would claim to understand all the rules. Rugby Union does rely on the goodwill of the referee to keep the game flowing. A problem in Rugby is that the players are so much larger and fitter than they used to be which may eventually kill the game as it will be too dangerous to play.

Dave

 

[ShinySideUp]

They have made a lot of changes to rugby since I used to play it t school. The hooker is now as big as the rest of them since 'hooking' is no longer required because the ball doesn't have to go in straight. Similarly, a cathcher in a lineout can be lifted to catch the ball. I see little point in scrums anymore, they just slow the game down and are really just a mess. One thing I do like in rugby is the fact that when there is no play the clock is stopped, I mean in football, the arbitrary 'injury' time has become excessive and I've seen eleven or twelve minutes added and then that is added to again if there are stoppages during the injury time meaning that until the ref blows the whistle, the players can't be entirely sure when the game is going to end. Why they don't just stop the clock when play stops is beyond me.

And don't get me started on penalties as a way to determine a winner, 120 minutes of play and the whole World Cup (for example) is decided on by goal keepers. I think they should just keep playing until a 'golden goal' is scored which ends the game or, and this is my own idea, keep playing and every two minutes one player from each team has to leave the field until the golden goal is scored even if there is only one player left on each team.

 

[Nod]

Edward II might have had the best idea!

 

[ShinySideUp]

Ah, the Despensers and the Contrariants. Good idea.

 

[cambsno]

They have made a lot of changes to rugby since I used to play it t school. The hooker is now as big as the rest of them since 'hooking' is no longer required because the ball doesn't have to go in straight. Similarly, a cathcher in a lineout can be lifted to catch the ball. I see little point in scrums anymore, they just slow the game down and are really just a mess. One thing I do like in rugby is the fact that when there is no play the clock is stopped, I mean in football, the arbitrary 'injury' time has become excessive and I've seen eleven or twelve minutes added and then that is added to again if there are stoppages during the injury time meaning that until the ref blows the whistle, the players can't be entirely sure when the game is going to end. Why they don't just stop the clock when play stops is beyond me.

And don't get me started on penalties as a way to determine a winner, 120 minutes of play and the whole World Cup (for example) is decided on by goal keepers. I think they should just keep playing until a 'golden goal' is scored which ends the game or, and this is my own idea, keep playing and every two minutes one player from each team has to leave the field until the golden goal is scored even if there is only one player left on each team.

Penalties are great for the neutral and a fair way to decide. Players can train and they know whats coming. A golden goal promotes negative play and if a player makes a mistake or a ref a bad decision you have no ability to come back from that

 

[Nod]

A coin toss at kick off - a couple of extra hours for the supporters to get pished and kick 7 bales out of each other...

 

[JohnC6]

Watching the snooker from China today made me a little irritated by the attitude of players to the referees. Someone will win a match and then shake hands with their opponent but when the referee offers their hand, the winner, and often the opponent too, will make a cursory effort without even looking at the ref in most cases; I think it is very rude. And this is snooker, where generally games are without too much contention, in football, not only are they rude to the referees, they are downright abusive in many cases. These insensitive and dismissive attitudes to referees are what young, impressionable people see as normal and it is just not good enough. Manners cost nothing. A referee (without VAR) is not going to change their minds about a decision, so players should just stop moaning and get on with the game, if it was a mistake, they might be the next to benefit if the ref makes another; they are not infallible.

Most sports could learn a lot from rugby where the players, in the vast majority of cases, accept the referee's judgements and are respectful of their authority.

Rant over.

A first class rant.. I'm surprised to hear that about snooker.I agree with everything you've said about our football players especially the influence their bad behaviour on young lads at local level. The womens' teams are like the rugby players you've mentioned. It's the Premiere League I watch. I'd like to see some kind of collective sanction when players mob a ref. That must be very intimidating. I recall reading that Alex Fergussen encouraged his players to do that. The only players who should be allowed to go to a ref are the captains which, as Pound Coin mentions, is the case with Rugby . Maybe the refs should be miked/miced-up as they are in Rugby. The FA have been very slow in addressing the problem.When a player gets a yellow card quite often you'll see him gesture at the ref with a dismissive wave of the arm because he disagrees with the decision against him so another yellow and off, I say.I like the idea of the rugby's sin bin.It is being spoken about .

If I were a manager I woud drill into my players NOT to remonstrate with a ref because,as you say, he never changes his mind unless the VAR chap has a word with him. The player risks getting a yellow card for dissent and another one for a foul and he's off. The other aspect,which you've highlighted, is the deterimental effect it has on youngsters playing at local level. I quite often hear a ref saying he's given up re local games because of the awful behaviour of dads..sometimes going as far as an assault.

 

[ShinySideUp]

A first class rant.. I'm surprised to hear that about snooker.I agree with everything you've said about our football players especially the influence their bad behaviour on young lads at local level. The womens' teams are like the rugby players you've mentioned. It's the Premiere League I watch. I'd like to see some kind of collective sanction when players mob a ref. That must be very intimidating. I recall reading that Alex Fergussen encouraged his players to do that. The only players who should be allowed to go to a ref are the captains which, as Pound Coin mentions, is the case with Rugby . Maybe the refs should be miked/miced-up as they are in Rugby. The FA have been very slow in addressing the problem.When a player gets a yellow card quite often you'll see him gesture at the ref with a dismissive wave of the arm because he disagrees with the decision against him so another yellow and off, I say.I like the idea of the rugby's sin bin.It is being spoken about .

If I were a manager I woud drill into my players NOT to remonstrate with a ref because,as you say, he never changes his mind unless the VAR chap has a word with him. The player risks getting a yellow card for dissent and another one for a foul and he's off. The other aspect,which you've highlighted, is the deterimental effect it has on youngsters playing at local level. I quite often hear a ref saying he's given up re local games because of the awful behaviour of dads..sometimes going as far as an assault.

You're not kidding about this last bit, My garden backs onto a playing field where, on a Sunday morning, there is a junior league. I'm sure the kids are calling to each other but I can't hear them over the screaming of fathers, if I was their kid, I'd take up chess and give up football altogether. I heard of an experiment they did with a kids team in that for one half, the mothers and fathers were allowed to do what they usually did, calling and 'supporting' their child. In the second half, they had to shut up, completely and utterly. After the match the kids were asked which half they preferred, no prizes for guessing it was the second.

 

[Jelster]

The problem with football is the money. Some players can be on huge bonuses (goal, win, clean sheet etc) so a ref getting something wrong costs players (and managers) money, big money. The other issue is that football refs could learn a lot from rugby refs. I played rugby at a reasonable level many years ago, and the ref would always explain why he had given a penalty/free kick, sometimes bringing the team captains together and explaining why he has made a particular decision. A lot of football refs are the "Because I said so..." type, which winds players up even more.

I don't think the "sin bin" will work for football, with rugby there tends to be more stopages, in football play can go on for 5-10 minutes without the ball going out of play or an infringement, it's a different game. However, I hate it when I see "professional" footballers ganging around a ref like some do.

 

[Garry Edwards]

Everyone should treat referees with respect, after all, the games need them and the vast majority of them don't even get paid.

In snooker and pool, we never disagree with the ref, who often sees things that the player doesn't (accidental contact with a ball for example) but the players never want to cheat anyway. It's the same with my sport of clay pigeon shooting, the referee (scorer) will sometimes call a hit or a miss that we think is wrong, but his/her view wasn't influenced by recoil and is more likely to be right.

I suspect that money raises its ugly head in football, which has never appealed to me personally.

As for what happens in Chinese snooker, I don't know, but I do know that a few years ago it was normal practice to pay enormous bribes to Chinese referees - has that now changed?

 

[onomatopoeia]

A problem in Rugby is that the players are so much larger and fitter than they used to be which may eventually kill the game as it will be too dangerous to play.

If refs would call "use it" more quickly at breakdowns (a lot more quickly) and actually enforce the five seconds rather than giving at least eight before thinking about penalising the scrum half, that would have a dramatic effect on the size of the forwards, as they will have to lose weight as they will not be able to sustain the effort.

I watched a premiership game last season where the ref was calling "use it" very quickly and after a dozen phases the props were on their knees.


In football a couple of things they would do well to learn from rugby are to adopt the TMO review system where the game (and clock) stops and the decision is reviewed on the big screen, and immediately marching the team back if there is dissent around a decision, with possible stronger penalties (e.g. Dylan Hartley getting banned for 11 matches in one case).

 

[Marc]

The problem with football is the money. Some players can be on huge bonuses (goal, win, clean sheet etc) so a ref getting something wrong costs players (and managers) money, big money. The other issue is that football refs could learn a lot from rugby refs. I played rugby at a reasonable level many years ago, and the ref would always explain why he had given a penalty/free kick, sometimes bringing the team captains together and explaining why he has made a particular decision. A lot of football refs are the "Because I said so..." type, which winds players up even more.

I don't think the "sin bin" will work for football, with rugby there tends to be more stopages, in football play can go on for 5-10 minutes without the ball going out of play or an infringement, it's a different game. However, I hate it when I see "professional" footballers ganging around a ref like some do.

Not sure about Union, but in Rugby League, play certainly goes on for 10 minutes or more without stoppages. The current Set Restart rules helps to keep the game flowing although it's unpopular with many fans (not really sure why). Also, the referees are mic'd up and they do give reasons for their decisions. It's something I'd like to see in football.

 

[Jelster]

Not sure about Union, but in Rugby League, play certainly goes on for 10 minutes or more without stoppages. The current Set Restart rules helps to keep the game flowing although it's unpopular with many fans (not really sure why). Also, the referees are mic'd up and they do give reasons for their decisions. It's something I'd like to see in football.

Many football referee's see themselves as Prima Donnas, their egos are almost as large as the players, so giving them a mic may even make it worse, given how poorly they make decisions....

 

[Marc]

Many football referee's see themselves as Prima Donnas, their egos are almost as large as the players, so giving them a mic may even make it worse, given how poorly they make decisions....

A lot of RL fans say the same about RL referees. Honestly, ref hate amongst RL fans is way worse than football. The problem is that most of them don't understand the rules!

 

[Jelster]

A lot of RL fans say the same about RL referees. Honestly, ref hate amongst RL fans is way worse than football. The problem is that most of them don't understand the rules!

Rugby, both league and union, have become very technical in terms of "rules", even some of the professional players aren't sure. The other issue with football refs is consistency. What's a yellow card today, is just a fowl in another game, and may even be a red card on another day/ref. I can see where the frustration comes from, and I'm not sure if VAR has made it any better.... I recall a game between Arsenal & Newcastle, where an Arsenal defender was clearly held down to stop him jumping, and a Newcastle player nodded the ball in the net, yet it was given as a goal. It was so obvious, even the commentators were amazed that the goal stood. And they call themselves professional refs.....

 

[ShinySideUp]

Good ref, bad ref, football, rugby, whatever, it is rather a thankless task and those that criticize perhaps should spend a day in their shoes; I certainly wouldn't be a professional referee.

I once referreed a pool competition at our local pub, one of the players leant over to play a shot and his tie (why he was wearing a tie is unknown) moved a ball. I called a foul and he didn't speak to me for about three weeks!

 

[Marc]

Rugby, both league and union, have become very technical in terms of "rules", even some of the professional players aren't sure. The other issue with football refs is consistency. What's a yellow card today, is just a fowl in another game, and may even be a red card on another day/ref. I can see where the frustration comes from, and I'm not sure if VAR has made it any better.... I recall a game between Arsenal & Newcastle, where an Arsenal defender was clearly held down to stop him jumping, and a Newcastle player nodded the ball in the net, yet it was given as a goal. It was so obvious, even the commentators were amazed that the goal stood. And they call themselves professional refs.....

The frustrating thing at the moment is the Match Review Panel who sit on a Monday and dish out bans and fines for the most innocuous tackles that weren't even commented on during the game!

 

[Jelster]

The frustrating thing at the moment is the Match Review Panel who sit on a Monday and dish out bans and fines for the most innocuous tackles that weren't even commented on during the game!

When I played rugby (union) 40 years ago, high tackles were expected, we just didn't argue if you got pulled up on them. Nowdays, I see the ball carrier "duck" into a tackle, and the guy making the tackle finds himself on the wrong end of a red card because the other guy suddenly dropped 12 inches, so his head is now where his shoulders were.... They are quick enough to call the high tackle, but don't take the ball carriers actions into consideration, it's barmy....

 

[Marc]

When I played rugby (union) 40 years ago, high tackles were expected, we just didn't argue if you got pulled up on them. Nowdays, I see the ball carrier "duck" into a tackle, and the guy making the tackle finds himself on the wrong end of a red card because the other guy suddenly dropped 12 inches, so his head is now where his shoulders were.... They are quick enough to call the high tackle, but don't take the ball carriers actions into consideration, it's barmy....

The rules in RL have changed drastically this season. I think it was in the 2nd week that a player got a red for an accidental head clash!

 

[cambsno]

As an example take a look at around 29 mins of Barnsley v Cambridge. We score from corner. Disallowed. Their fans on ifollow who commentate had no idea why and their players didn’t appeal it. Only the ref saw something wrong. Huge mistake! Surely if the opposition didn’t think it a foul, it probably wasn’t!!

 

[JohnC6]

Here's another issue that needs sorting. I watched the Newcastle V West Ham match yesterday.David Moyes, West Ham manager was repeatedly berating the fourth official as if he had any influence of a decision or in some cases..no decision. made by the ref.. The Newcastle manager, Eddie Howe was no better and I'm sure he eventually got a red card dismissing him from the technical area. The rules should forbid managers approaching the fourth official to make a complaint.

 

[Nod]

And maybe in Rugby Union, waterboys should be neutrals who just carry water (well, whatever drinks the do carry!) and not instructions etc..

 

[ShinySideUp]

And maybe in Rugby Union, waterboys should be neutrals who just carry water (well, whatever drinks the do carry!) and not instructions etc..

That's another thing that changed from when I was a kid playing rugby. I wonder what the world is coming to when someone can't run around for forty minutes without a drink and an encouraging chat interrupting the game; what are these big burly blokes, five years old?! Soon, we'll be having nap-time every fifteen minutes!

 

[Nod]

Last game of rugby I played was against a local university side - we were a group of pressganged door staff and bar staff from the boss's several establishments in the city. At half time, he came on with trays of assorted pints and a pack of fags! We may have been soundly beaten but I'm pretty sure we had a better time than the students!

 

[ShinySideUp]

My Air Force station hockey team used to do that!

 

[JohnC6]

And maybe in Rugby Union, waterboys should be neutrals who just carry water (well, whatever drinks the do carry!) and not instructions etc..

Now you mention that I think it must have been in that game I watched on Saturday when the commentator said 'So and so (player) picks a ball up from one of several around the ground since the ballboys/girls aren't allowed to collect a ball which has gone out of play. I wasn't aware of that rule until then.

 

[ShinySideUp]

Now you mention that I think it must have been in that game I watched on Saturday when the commentator said 'So and so (player) picks a ball up from one of several around the ground since the ballboys/girls aren't allowed to collect a ball which has gone out of play. I wasn't aware of that rule until then.

I'm confused, what do they do then?

 

[JohnC6]

I'm confused, what do they do then?

Good question..
As they are still there I've just checked. First off ,instead of calling them "ball boys/girls" they are now called "ball assistants"..
The ball sits in a cup shape on top of a cone..like road cones.

Premier League tells ball boys and girls to stop returning balls to players

Premier League ball boys and girls have been ordered to stop throwing the ball back to players during matches, amid concerns that the “multi-ball” system is giving home teams an unfair advantage.

sports.yahoo.com

From the article: "Updated ruling states that players must now collect a ball from the nearest cone, rather than receive one thrown to them. "Ball assistants”, as they are known in the Premier League handbook, are no longer allowed to even be positioned next to the cones during matches. The league hopes this will make it clear to players that they must fetch the ball themselves during games.

 

[ShinySideUp]

Be amusing if they brought the same rule in for Wimbledon tennis; imagine Novak Djokovic running around trying to pick up his own tennis balls mounted in cones in the corners of the court.

 

[Jelster]

I'm confused, what do they do then?

They collect the balls and put them on the cones, However, in a non-multiball game, they would be pointless if they are not allowed to gather the balls.

 

[ShinySideUp]

Good question..
As they are still there I've just checked. First off ,instead of calling them "ball boys/girls" they are now called "ball assistants"..
The ball sits in a cup shape on top of a cone..like road cones.

Premier League tells ball boys and girls to stop returning balls to players

Premier League ball boys and girls have been ordered to stop throwing the ball back to players during matches, amid concerns that the “multi-ball” system is giving home teams an unfair advantage.

sports.yahoo.com

From the article: "Updated ruling states that players must now collect a ball from the nearest cone, rather than receive one thrown to them. "Ball assistants”, as they are known in the Premier League handbook, are no longer allowed to even be positioned next to the cones during matches. The league hopes this will make it clear to players that they must fetch the ball themselves during games.

Of course time-wasting would be pointless if the clock stopped when the ball went out of play, that way ball boys/girls could do a proper job without being accused of bias. Same with the acting after a 'foul', anyone who is really in that much pain after a collision with another player would likely be stretchered off, not jumping up and running off once the required time-wasting has been achieved. I do watch the occasional game, especially in the European and World Cups, but in general, football, the way it is run, is a joke perpetrated by ridiculously over-paid players and busnesses who probably couldn't give a monkey's about the game. The whole system needs to be picked up by the scruff of the neck and given a good shaking.

 

[Jelster]

he whole system needs to be picked up by the scruff of the neck and given a good shaking.

While I'm not disagreeing with you, the issue with that is whichever county's FA is the first to instigate the said shake up, will probably be uncompetitive against the others that continue. It needs better education at acadamy level. Teach the youngsters not to do it, and instil a better moral compass in them. But again, those that do will have to compete against those that don't.

What I have been pleased to see (being an Arsenal fan all my life) is the way that Mikel Arteta has laid down a "my way or the highway" rule at the club, regarding general discipline both on and off the field. A number of players, some of them big names, have been moved on due to their failure to comply. That in itself is rather refreshing.