river in iceland

[realspeed]

Personally I would not even consider trying to do videos with a camera , too many problems such as over heating - having to change lenses etc etc. To me a camera is for stills and a camcorder is for videos, each is designed for a specific job. Therefore I only use my Nikon D810 for stills and my Panasonic HC-X1500 for videos. Packing a small camcorder into a camera bag instead of some huge heavy "X"mm lens to me makes more sense. I think there is still some taboo people have about camcorders yet they are nowhere near like the old tape movie era of yester year.
I can think of nothing worst then seeing a chance for a video clip/sill only to find the camera has the wrong lens on it and miss that opportunity.

Example a Nikon AF-S 600mm f4E FL ED VR in the UK costs new just about £11,000 pounds . And what can it do ? only take a photo at a distance, and that is all.

My Panasonic HC-X1500 camcorder can do the same 600mm length for £1400 and also close up video/stills as well . On top of that no overheating worries/ no need for lens change and just grab and get that still/video the camera missed. It will go on until the battery runs out or the 2x SD memory cards fill up. this is not even touching sound quality.

river in Iceland (unedited) steady zoom in focus all the way and back, no need for lens change and actual sound as shot
Handheld

https://flic.kr/p/2pCxpg9

Panasonic HV-X1500 camcorder with an Azden SMX-30v microphone

try doing that with a camera using a video setting!!!!!

 

[ScottT]

A lot depends on what you are filming, and of course how good you are at filming.

I have a Panasonic HC-VXF990 small fairly cheap video camera thats surprisingly good at some things, also a HC-X1 which is at a much higher level. Also for video i'll use my EOS5D4 or a EOS77D or a GoPro 9 or even my phone.
Everyone will do things the others wont, what i take out for the day depends on what i plan on filming and how i plan on filming.

If i'm heading out to say have a day filming macro subjects then the 77D with the EFS 35mm macro lens my first choice because it has a built in ring light which really helps in dark areas (woodlands) if i'm going to film more flowers with insects in open areas then the 5D4 with a 100mm macro is the first choice, you just cant get that 1:1 macro with a video camera.

If i'm filming my son playing football then the choice depends on the venue, if its a home game i know i can park right next to where i'll be filming, the car park is about 15ft above the pitch so the HC-X1 on a tripod is used, for away games i use the F990 as im normally at pitch level and often walk around filming (different angles etc). I have in the past used both the Canons, no overheating issues as i stop filming when the ball goes out of play, you do end up with a lot of clips but i find it makes editing easier.

Poor lighting, has to be the 5D4 with a f1.2, no video camera comes anywhere near to that quality when the light is low.

Easy to carry, the F990 wins, there is no way im hiking up the hills around here (Lake District) carrying a rucksack full of gear, that slips into my pocket and weighs about the same as a bottle of water (thats in my other pocket). The phone really wins this argument but its handy to have that zoom (but my phone will be in my pocket anyway), walking around a city and not wanting to draw attention to youself a phone would be better.

Anything that requires gimbal work, the DSLR's win, yes there is probably a gimbal that takes the X1 but thats way out of my price range. The same goes for things like Sliders or anything else that moves the camera around using an electric motor, to take the weight of a decent video camera the £££'s add up. I have a small electric slider that works great with the 77D and a small lens, the 5D with a bigger lens and it will judder slightly.

Anything that may require a lot of manual focus the DSLR's with a focus puller works a lot better, all my main lenses have geared rings on them for this. Think of a scene where 2 people are talking and 1 is close to the camera the other further away but both are in the frame at the same time, swapping focus between them is so much easier with a focus puller.

Yes there is a big cost but the ability to be able to change a lens to suit the situation is a huge plus, i've been playing around recently with a few vintage lenses for video, it just gives a certain look you cant get any other way, a Helios 44m is my current favourite, and a 600mm prime lens will give a quality you just wont get with a video zoom.
If high quality is your aim a high quality prime lens with a full frame sensor cant be beaten by a video camera

And given that most films have an aerial shot or 2 these days a Drone will be needed.

The video camera does have some advantages, battery life, the video quality can be quite good, long continuous shooting, XLR inputs, built in ND filters, being able to use either the eyepiece or the screen (not possible on my DSLR's) that you can go from 28mm to 600mm in an instant are all big plus points.
The downside of having a great zoom is that it gets used far to often, watch TV or any film and you'll hardly ever see a zoom shot, a dolly zoom yes but a lens zoom no. Watch the 100's of dreadfull home movies of the 80's & 90's and its all zoom at this, zoom at that, its very poor videography.




No matter what i'm using at the time i often wish i had one of the other cameras with me, none will do everything but some will be far better, it all depends on what you want to film and your budget.

 

[realspeed]

Scott . Of course everyone to their own. being 79 years old other considerations come into play. Weight and cost being the main things, so the lighter I can now travel with the easier it is for me.
strangely enough when I was in Egypt camera security was the uppermost, so back then I used a Panasonic HC-900m which easily fitted into a trouser pocket. others who had DSls a couple were pinched .

Abu Simbal

don't get me wrong if light was a consideration then the Nikon D810 would be my first choice,as well as for portraits etc

Having been to many countries from the USA to Russia, Brazil to the Caribbean. Norway and the baltic countries. Quite a bit of europe not forgetting China and Japan , I find the camcorder brings back better memories than just a still photo

 

[Adam-G]

I think with hybrid cameras being so excellent these days and phone users being happy with the video quality from the device in their pocket an actual camcorder isn't on a lot of peoples' radars these days.

For my use case, the spec of the HC-X1500 wouldn't suit at all. It's nice to have a 600mm zoom in such a small package I'm sure but when it's using a tiny 1/2.5 inch sensor the sacrifices around depth of field and low light performance are way too great for me to even look at it. I shoot in a lot of dimly lit venues for gigs and if a musician wants some video as well as photographs I can flick a switch within one device and have pro quality video already set to use my preferred codec and log profile.

Convenience is different for every individual I guess but being able to switch from 24MP photographs to a 6K open gate video frame with a single dial turn is convenience to me. The very definition of hybrid shooting.

I also think the stated overheating issue is greatly exaggerated for most use cases. I use a Panasonic S5ii which it seems you couldn't overheat in the Sahara and even cameras with reputations for overheating from Sony and Canon only overheat at high resolutions/bitrates over longer periods of time. Most people don't need to shoot for a 30+ minute period.

The Log files that come out of the S5ii are wonderful to grade and work with. The dynamic range is crazy for a consumer camera. I'm one of those weird people who enjoy post production so having that huge amount of dynamic range to push and pull is something that I wouldn't leave behind and even when I go out with the intention of shooting video, I will still likely need some high quality photos of the event too. To have this in a single device is exactly what I need.

It's horses for courses though, I can definitely see the advantage of a camcorder for your use case. A pocketable super zoom when you like to capture travel videos is super convenient.

 

[Sangoma]

I find the camcorder brings back better memories than just a still photo

I don't find much difference, videos are just a reminder as are photos to me.
I saw Jethro Tull in Plymouth Guildhall in 1972, listening to the sounds, I can visualise just about the whole thing as if it was a video.
If I look at an old unclear B&W photo of myself 65 years ago, I can remember (usually) the events around it.
The same with videos, but no more than photos.

Guess we are all different how we remember though.

 

[realspeed]

What most who have posted above, and thank you all for your imput, is cost. Show me one of these cameras and lenses that only cost £1400. Adam quoted the Panasonic S5ii costing around £2500 and that is without even a lens attached.
You just cant say this camera is better or that camera is better until one compares prices. This is what everyone has forgotten.
I am not against any form of equipment used, but not using unfair comparisons.

 

[Adam-G]

What most who have posted above, and thank you all for your imput, is cost. Show me one of these cameras and lenses that only cost £1400. Adam quoted the Panasonic S5ii costing around £2500 and that is without even a lens attached.
You just cant say this camera is better or that camera is better until one compares prices. This is what everyone has forgotten.
I am not against any form of equipment used, but not using unfair comparisons.

I've no idea where you've seen a Panasonc S5ii for £2500. Many places have body only for £1500 and I've seen body plus 2 lenses for £1800 during several offer periods.

Regardless of that, my intent was to not provide a direct comparison but to try and explain rational reasons why there is a 'taboo' around camcorders. There isn't a taboo at all, it's just another market that has been compressed by competitors in the space. Casual convenience has been taken up by phones. Video-centric use has been taken up by high quality hybrids.

I mean, if you want to talk about full transparency, the 600mm focal length on the HC-X1500 is attained using a digital crop, taking the resolution down to 1080p. Quality definitely comes into play when offering a price comparison.

It works for you and that is all that's important, however as a direct comparison £1400 for the spec offered on the HC-X1500 is an absolutely insane price when I could attain a professional level video camera that also does 24MP stills and get a couple of lenses thrown in for £400 more if I bide my time.

Again, it works for you and that's all that counts but to pretend there aren't compromises for that convenience isn't really transparent.

Of course, a full frame camera is never going to attain 300mm 4K in a package of comparable size and weight but again, that's the choice for the user to prioritise.

However I bought my S5ii primarily as a photography tool but in essence it's a 24MP Full Frame camera that has Pro Level Video capabilities built into the same package. If you wanted a fair comparison strictly in terms of price, performance and weight you'd need to add a stills camera to the £1400 camcorder and carry both around and see if the convenience and price is still comparable because there's no way I'd accept 4K (roughly 8MP) screen grabs with inherent motion blur from a mobile phone sized sensor in that scenario at all.

When you start balancing all that out, a dedicated camcorder looks a lot less attractive to a lot of video-centric purchasers. That isn't me saying it isn't right for you but it certainly isn't going to be right for a lot of people.

I'd personally be looking at an M43 hybrid and likely attain even more value/performance when compared to the HC-X1500 at a more manageable weight than a full frame solution.

 

[realspeed]

Adam , I back up my statements with videos, could you please do the same so I can see any difference.

 

[Adam-G]

Adam , I back up my statements with videos, could you please do the same so I can see any difference.

I will try and dig some out for you. I think I might have an old Flickr I can embed to and share here.

 

[Adam-G]

Only have a few shareable examples. A couple of these are from my original S5 which could be picked up for £800 second hand these days and doesn’t have the Phase Detect Autofocus of the S5ii.

https://flic.kr/p/2pCGcip

https://flic.kr/p/2pCGa2A

 

[Adam-G]

https://flic.kr/p/2pCME13

 

[realspeed]

Thank you so much for posting those videos, it gives me a better idea of what your camera is capable of. Maybe having the actual sound as well would be interesting as i think the sound is a big part of any video. If I may can I suggest the Azden SMX-30v microphone (cost around £250 mark) which is what I use

shown with deadcat on

stereo and directional all one one microphone.

indoors at a faroe islands church where the sound reproduction to me was spot on as an example.

 

[ScottT]

What most who have posted above, and thank you all for your imput, is cost. Show me one of these cameras and lenses that only cost £1400.
You just cant say this camera is better or that camera is better until one compares prices. This is what everyone has forgotten.
I am not against any form of equipment used, but not using unfair comparisons.

Out of curiosity I had a look around tonight on the Wex site.
Canon Eos R100 with a RFS 18-45mm lens for £600 add to that a RF 100-400 lens at £700 leaving £100 for a Rode Videomic go 2

Ok its not the 600mm lens but shoot in 4k then crop to 1080 and you'll get the same reach with it being a crop sensor. The camera will also shoot 1080 at 120fps so yes it is possible to get a good set up for the £1400 budget.

Its not the camera, it will never be the camera its the person operating it that makes the difference, even more so in video than in photography.

indoors at a faroe islands church where the sound reproduction to me was spot on as an example.

Some constructive feedback: While you are thinking your mic is doing a great job and yes its picking up his voice clear enough, it is also picking up every footstep, cough, people moving around and so on, that all adds up to poor sound.
If this is the sort of thing you video often then i suggest you get a Lav mic (with reciever) and get the person talking to wear the lav, it will help cut out most of the additional noise.

​

 

[Sangoma]

I think most recent Panasonic M43 cameras would give better quality than a tiny sensor, especially in low light.

I had a Panasonic video camera quite a few years ago, it rarely got used.

I can see the advantage if you want such a long zoom range without changing lenses (never found I do), and find the shape etc easy to carry, but I have found that from the TZ10 onwards, the Panasonic compacts give as good video as I want, and now the G9s, GX9 etc do even better.

Pity they built that church on the side of a hill though

 

[Adam-G]

Thank you so much for posting those videos, it gives me a better idea of what your camera is capable of. Maybe having the actual sound as well would be interesting as i think the sound is a big part of any video. If I may can I suggest the Azden SMX-30v microphone (cost around £250 mark) which is what I use

Apologies for the lack of sound in the clips. If ever I shoot anything like that it'll just get stitched together with some music in the background so I usually render out the video muted for that purpose.

These were literally 3 clips I had sat on my iPad that I could quickly upload in my lunch break. A lot of what I shoot is for musicians and for that I'll usually place wireless lav mics at convenient points in the room far enough away from the speakers so that I can get a stereo mix and level them properly without clipping the audio as volume can get pretty high.

The S5ii will do 4 channel audio but that's overkill for my use case at the moment.

I could do with a decent on camera mic though so thanks for the shout.

I think most recent Panasonic M43 cameras would give better quality than a tiny sensor, especially in low light.

I had a Panasonic video camera quite a few years ago, it rarely got used.

I can see the advantage if you want such a long zoom range without changing lenses (never found I do), and find the shape etc easy to carry, but I have found that from the TZ10 onwards, the Panasonic compacts give as good video as I want, and now the G9s, GX9 etc do even better.

Pity they built that church on the side of a hill though

A second hand G9 would be a great shout for this type of use. You could probably get a really compact 600mm equivalent set up for a pretty reasonable price now the G9 is a little older.

Panasonic really are fantastic when it comes to video functionality in their hybrids. They cram so many Pro Tools into their bodies.

It sounds like a simple thing but Shutter Angle saves me so much time rather than consistently doing gymnastics to match shutter speed/frame rate and exposure.

The huge amount of exposure tools and codecs are far above what I'll ever need but the fact they're there means I can grow into my videography.

I want to start experimenting with anamorphic shooting and the S5ii does automatic desqueeze without needing an external monitor and also has IBIS modes that stabilise anamorphic footage as regular IBIS will introduce warping with them. They genuinely have thought of everything you need for video work.

 

[Sangoma]

A second hand G9 would be a great shout for this type of use. You could probably get a really compact 600mm equivalent set up for a pretty reasonable price now the G9 is a little older.

Panasonic really are fantastic when it comes to video functionality in their hybrids. They cram so many Pro Tools into their bodies.

It sounds like a simple thing but Shutter Angle saves me so much time rather than consistently doing gymnastics to match shutter speed/frame rate and exposure.

The huge amount of exposure tools and codecs are far above what I'll ever need but the fact they're there means I can grow into my videography.

I want to start experimenting with anamorphic shooting and the S5ii does automatic desqueeze without needing an external monitor and also has IBIS modes that stabilise anamorphic footage as regular IBIS will introduce warping with them. They genuinely have thought of everything you need for video work.

I think that is why you often see them being used for professional and semi-professional productions

 

[ScottT]

I can see the advantage if you want such a long zoom range without changing lenses (never found I do),

A lot of wildlife videographers do prefer a long zoom over a prime on what ever camera they are using. Its mostly due to the short interaction you often get when filming wildlife, you can grab a wide, a mid and a tight shot very quickly, by the time you have swapped over primes the action you were hoping to video has gone. Sitting in a hide with a 600mm f4 is great when the subject is some distance from you (like some large bird) but if it takes off and flies straight towards you then that lens is useless when its 3m above you, but it all depends on what you're filming.
If you film a lot of bird life then a big zoom video camera is a very good option, its also a much cheaper option. Tamron do a 18-400 f3.5-6.3 lens which is cheap enough. I cant find anything else that gives the same range on a dslr, some bridge cameras have a great zoom but small sensors and are a bit bulky and dont have the input/output options that most video cameras have.

Canon do a great 50-1000mm with an EF mount for a budget £68K it does have a 1.5 extender with it for 75-1500mm!!!


The whole 'gear' thing is highly overated in the video world, content is the main thing no matter what its shot on. I engage on a few videographer FB pages and the odd forum, there are people on there with £40k+ worth of gear and their main income from it is shooting tik tok videos for clients!

I shot this on my Panasonic HC-VXF990 a basic video camera that cost me £549, not brilliant but good enough quality given that 90% will watch it on a phone.

​

 

[TimHughes]

@realspeed, I'm happy that you love your Panasonic HC-X1500 camcorder, enjoy the results it produces, and feel that it is great value for money. It seems to be a good fit for your needs.

I don't agree with most of your concerns about using cameras for filming. For many people, a hybrid camera is a very convenient solution for having photos and filming in one package.

Personally, I have a hybrid camera, camcorder, and cinema camera and choose the best tool for the job. I find the camcorder best for long stretches of filming in good light, the cinema camera is better for filming long stretches in more challenging conditions, and the hybrid camera is perfect for situations needing high-quality photos and video clips. As always YMMV and budget limits choice.

 

[realspeed]

Tim I can only go by the equipment I own and have experience with, no doubt more modern cameras than my Nikon D810 can do a far better job, Although it does videos as well having to change from still to video is not just the flick of a switch, it involves setting up frame rate relative to shutter speed to use the video part of the camera, and possibly changing lenses.
for me it is far easier to keep the camera and camcorder to do what they are designed for.

Just one other thing worth a mention is as an old age pensioner ( that sounds aweful doesn't ) I have to be careful on what I can afford and how often it will get used.. For that reason I would rather spend the spare cash on a cruise and see different parts the world. So getting the latest photographic gear is low on the list. In that respect my wife and I have had the pleasure of visiting countries such as Brazil- argentina- China- Japan- Germany- Tunisia- Busan in South Korea- Italy Denmark- USA -Norway -Russia - Sicily -Egypt- Spain- Cruised around and been to several carribean countries - same with mediterean countries and the ballic countries such as latvia to name but one . This year Portugal is already booked for a river cruise. some of them been to more than once and even more countries than already mentioned.

Small lava flow on MT Etna happened the week before we arrived and the first to return to that area

governors house on Alcatraz. salt air rusted the ironwork everywhere which is why the island is now just for tourists

pompeii = recovered body

Ribes

great wall of china (on the left and mongolia on the right) so high up on trhe mountain range breathing became a problem

So as you can see travel comes first

 

[TimHughes]

Understand. hybrid cameras have separate buttons to take photos and record video, with separate settings for each. So it’s really easy to take photos or record video with no messing about.

 

[realspeed]

Scott
quote "Some constructive feedback: While you are thinking your mic is doing a great job and yes its picking up his voice clear enough, it is also picking up every footstep, cough, people moving around and so on, that all adds up to poor sound.
If this is the sort of thing you video often then i suggest you get a Lav mic (with reciever) and get the person talking to wear the lav, it will help cut out most of the additional noise.
Some constructive feedback: While you are thinking your mic is doing a great job and yes its picking up his voice clear enough, it is also picking up every footstep, cough, people moving around and so on, that all adds up to poor sound.
If this is the sort of thing you video often then i suggest you get a Lav mic (with reciever) and get the person talking to wear the lav, it will help cut out most of the additional noise."unquote

There is no point in just recording without the surround sound to go with it. That adds to the video giving audio atmosphere to where a video is taken. One might as well just have taken still photos otherwise. Lav mics are more use for interviews and direct speech. Each mic has its own purpose

​

 

[ScottT]

There is no point in just recording without the surround sound to go with it. That adds to the video giving audio atmosphere to where a video is taken. One might as well just have taken still photos otherwise. Lav mics are more use for interviews and direct speech. Each mic has its own purpose

​

I totaly agree with having the surrounding sound, it adds so much to the video. In that clip you showed the most important part of that video is what the man is saying, without his words then i might as well have been a still photo. The point i was making is that any additional noise that happened between him and the camera could quite easily drown out what he was saying (for example if the person nearest the camera had of started coughing that would have taken over the sound and his voice would have been lost)

Your X1500 has 2 xlr inputs, mine is the same. I have 1 mic that i use for the person talking with the level set just right, and the 2nd mic has the volume set very low so i get the surround sounds without it overpowering the main voice.
A good few years ago at Universal studios Florida, i filmed one of the little shows that go on there (video camera tape version), i thought it was going to be great but when you watch it back all you can really hear is the family stood next to me eating popcorn and their kids moaning, the sound from the event is just drowned out!

In that clip above with the birds all the sounds were added later because that little car park is about 10-15m away from the busiest road in my area, in the original footage all you can hear is vehicles going past constantly.

 

[realspeed]

Scott

Have you considered a microphone that can dial between stereo and directional? I think I have with the Azden SMX- 30V (note the V version)for around £250
this saves balancing two microphones for directional v surround and it work well with the dial in the photo

In my opinion far better than Rhode because first of all the audio cable is removable (just plus in). Rhode is fixed into mike and if gets damaged what then?
this one can turn 30 degrees left/right without removing from cold shoe. the batteries are 2x AA batteries , no need to take off camera to replace as front loading . The rhode has a square 9V? battery may be hard to get .
this can power of camea/camcorder or own AA batteries and can be switched off or turns off when camera turns off
another advantage is you can use any length audio cable within reason. I have added a fur deadcat to go over the foam for bad windy days