Rules on photographing track days

IanBestPhot

IanBestPhot

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Ian
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Was thinking about popping down to Oulton Park today as there is a free entry track day on by Club MSV. Is there any rules/regs I should know about before heading down there to practice panning etc? like if there is any club MSV togs there will they be peeved if I rock up and start snapping??

Thanks

Ian
 
shouldnt be a problem so long as you dont try going around the paddock selling them!!
For personal use is not an issue usually
 
Thanks Chris will pop up on the next one maybe tomorrow for a bike track day
 
Knew of someone who signed on as media at an MSV circuit track day, shot a load 'film' and wondered why the days resident tog nearly shot him on sight after touting for business in the paddock. Keep yourself to yourself and you'll be fine.
 
Cheers everyone, wasnt expecting fence side but know a few good close up spots around Oulton anyway so shouldn't really be a problem, what lens would you recommend? I've got a 18-55 kit, 75-300 USM and a 50mm 1.8
 
fastworldimages said:
You wont be allowed fence side.

MSV generally use really crap companies for those on track though sadly :(
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Your information/assumption is incorrect. The company that shoots for MSV is MSV Photography (www.msvphotography.co.uk). They take their photography seriously and have a dedicated team of photographers, including myself. There are track days run at Outlon Park run by other organisations that do not use MSV Photography and maybe it's those that are "usually crap"!

As for anyone shooting at a track day, I will concur with others - no one will bother you as long as you don't try to go track side and don't try to sell your pictures.
 
Wilko58 said:
Your information/assumption is incorrect. The company that shoots for MSV is MSV Photography (www.msvphotography.co.uk). They take their photography seriously and have a dedicated team of photographers, including myself. There are track days run at Outlon Park run by other organisations that do not use MSV Photography and maybe it's those that are "usually crap"!

As for anyone shooting at a track day, I will concur with others - no one will bother you as long as you don't try to go track side and don't try to sell your pictures.
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I am curious about this statement.
Is he not allowed to try and sell his pictures or is that just you saying he cant?
Ive never done anything like this myself but I cant see it being illegal and at worst he would just get asked to leave the track.
 
MSV Photography is part of the whole set-up (circuit owned by MSV) and they are the official photographers at these events. I don't think it will be classed as illegal if he tried to sell his images but he would certainly be escorted from the circuit and not be welcomed back - Oulton Park does have a chap who tries to do this on a regular basis.
By the way, this is usually the case at any event where a photographer is working and selling on site or via the web - their contract with the organiser will stipulate that they are the sole photographers and can insist that the organisers eject any other photographers deemed to be trying to sell their images; it often happens at equestrian events. Most event photographers attend events free of charge and rely on sales to make a living and photographers who just turn up and shoot and then try to sell their images are effectively stealing from the bona-fide photographer.
 
Terms and conditions at most circuits state that photographs, videos, etc are only permitted for personnel use.

My latest ticket for Croft states "All film & video copyrights whether still or moving belong to Croft Promosports Ltd. Any attempt to use them for purposes other than personal enjoyment will be deemed a breach of copyright"
 
Wilko, I think you need to read up on the definition of stealing.
 
Likewise Croft need to revise their wording and brush up on the CDPA 1988. IP rights, yes. Copyright, no.
 
Wilko58 said:
Your information/assumption is incorrect. The company that shoots for MSV is MSV Photography (www.msvphotography.co.uk). They take their photography seriously and have a dedicated team of photographers, including myself. There are track days run at Outlon Park run by other organisations that do not use MSV Photography and maybe it's those that are "usually crap"!

As for anyone shooting at a track day, I will concur with others - no one will bother you as long as you don't try to go track side and don't try to sell your pictures.
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It wasnt an assumption it was based off of several track days at MSV Circuits. (I also prefer to book with MSV direct as opposed to other companies)

Brands used to really push a company who's images were appauling.

The link you mention shows images from MSV experience days and not 'track days'

Edit: found some from oulton that are a track day, you have done nothing to change my opinion im afraid sorry if this may offend you but in my opinion I wouldnt buy images based on what i see.
 
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I find the attitude of some of the photographers at track days strange sometimes. Some of them seem to have a real issue with anyone turning up with decent kit and taking a few pics.

I recently turned up at a track day at my local track and five minutes after starting taking a few was accosted by a chap who told me that he was the photographer with the rights to photograph the track day and i wasn't welcome.

I explained that I was just there to get my eye in before the next BSB round and that i would be off home in a couple of hours. He wasnt having it and said that if he saw me inside the track he'd have me thrown out.

I explained to him that i wasnt going to try and nick his patch and that he was starting to annoy me so it would be better all round if he went about his business and left me to mine.

On the other side of the pro togs stance. I spent a really pleasant day at Oulton park at a BSB meeting talking to pro photographers who were standing on their side of the fence as it were who gave me advice and were really helpful.

And i have to agree that some of the images that are offered for sale at track days are average at best. Not saying mine are better but im not selling them!
 
Gaz J said:
I recently turned up at a track day at my local track and five minutes after starting taking a few was accosted by a chap who told me that he was the photographer with the rights to photograph the track day and i wasn't welcome.

I explained that I was just there to get my eye in before the next BSB round and that i would be off home in a couple of hours. He wasnt having it and said that if he saw me inside the track he'd have me thrown out.
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He doesnt sound a very skilled photographer. If he was any good, his images would sell on their own merit, not through enforced lack of competition.

Its a shame these people have to resort to bullying to make their living. These events should be open to everyone to photograph, if you produce the best images, you sell them.
Rather like normal competition in the real world. :naughty:

Allan
 
Ian I think literally (might be a few very rare occasions where it's not the case but,) all trackdays at MSV circuits are free to spectate.

As has been said, just don't try selling them.

I know living so close to an MSV circuit I've made the most of it and it's got me to learn the circuit a fair bit better than I would have otherwise.
 
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Interesting thread as I'm going over to Oulton Park this morning just to practice my technique, gain experience and hopefully enjoy myself. If any official Tog challenges me I'll politely ask them to carry on with their business as I have no intention to make money. I hope nothing spoils the day!
 
Not had a problem @ Oulton Park previously, was there yesterday and no issues at all...
 
whats the situation if you give your images away for free?
 
chris954 said:
whats the situation if you give your images away for free?
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I would imagine that several people, including the official track photographer, will very kindly offer to neuter you in a variety of interesting and inventful ways.
 
Not sure if it's already mentioned, but on an MSV track day you need to pay £100 plus vat to sell your track day photos. I'm sure you can give them away to drivers for free but you might understand that the guy who's paid £120 might not send you any Christmas cards this year.
 
Gary said:
Not sure if it's already mentioned, but on an MSV track day you need to pay £100 plus vat to sell your track day photos. I'm sure you can give them away to drivers for free but you might understand that the guy who's paid £120 might not send you any Christmas cards this year.
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But they shouldn't have a prob with you shooting for practice
 
Gary said:
I'm sure you can give them away to drivers for free but you might understand that the guy who's paid £120 might not send you any Christmas cards this year.
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I wouldn't have thought the circuit would be thrilled you were devaluing their sales license either would they?
 
Yes I'd be a bit wary about offering free images. Think that that is being a little disrespectful to guys/girls who make their living from them.

I have found that sometimes at my local track days they don't have a photographer. I would then consider it ok to hand out a card to riders. I've never done it but in that instance you're not taking anything away from anyone.
 
Very interesting comments, I can't believe that the tog that confronted Gaz J felt that he was being threatened by a Amateur tog on the other side of a track with no Media pass. I went to BSB at Brands Hatch and I will be there at Cadwell Park next week, My experience of Pro togs at this moment in time is fantastic, I have met two in particular who talked for hours giving information and knowledge freely and even took my card and still regularly keep in touch.
A message to the pro togs though, yes I agree that you need the shots to make your living and by having all the trackside assets in your favour you should be in a position to take fantastic Imagery, However. you all started like we did and all any Amateur Togs are trying to do is take photographs to enhance there skills.
If an Amateur gets lucky and a few photographs are published then good for him or her. And to the Pro tog who confronted Mr Gaz J ....four tours of Afghanistan and 20 years in the Forces say with a massive exclamation mark on the end of it, confront me and expect to be treated with the contempt you so richly deserve.
 
Wish I'd seen this thread when it was more active! I work for MSV as one of their trackday photographers, working mainly at Brands & Snetterton, and just about full-time. I've never confronted anyone on 'the wrong side of the fence' taking photos - Spectator entry if free and its a great way to practice motorsport photography, its how I started.

However, if I see you wondering around the pitlane handing out business cards, or offering free photos, I'll make sure MSV are aware of what you're up to.

I work hard to produce great images to my trackday customers, so don't lose sleep about people shooting over my shoulder, but don't like people trying to undermine my livelihood.
 
I both agree and disagree with everyone.

But and this is the big but, I do many many trackdays every year and most of mine are through a certain third party company on MSV tracks who use their own photographer so is in no way a meter against your work but one for experience.

Now the said company use company "x" in this term and their photos to be blunt are total average, they are from 85% of the time the same angle, offer little to zero panning and simply boring and yet they charge £x a cd.

Now on this case I would welcome a extremely good amateur that hasn't been given the break to show me their photos in this occurance and I wouldn't be able to see the problem in it with the fact that if the "pro" was that good then I would surely buy theirs over the amatuer.. You see where I am heading?

Not a dig at you at all as I understand fully how hard work it is to get into things, just frustrating sometimes with things like company "x" work.

Although i would like to message you if thats ok.
 
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dalegt4 said:
I both agree and disagree with everyone.

But and this is the big but, I do many many trackdays every year and most of mine are through a certain third party company on MSV tracks who use their own photographer so is in no way a meter against your work but one for experience.

Now the said company use company "x" in this term and their photos to be blunt are total average, they are from 85% of the time the same angle, offer little to zero panning and simply boring and yet they charge £x a cd.

Now on this case I would welcome a extremely good amateur that hasn't been given the break to show me their photos in this occurance and I wouldn't be able to see the problem in it with the fact that if the "pro" was that good then I would surely buy theirs over the amatuer.. You see where I am heading?

Not a dig at you at all as I understand fully how hard work it is to get into things, just frustrating sometimes with things like company "x" work.

Although i would like to message you if thats ok.
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although its not really on the subject i can tell you that arty track day photos dont sell.. the customers like the crappy gatso / alton towers type photo.
 
I'm sure you could automate track day photography for optimum effeciency...

Hmmmmm

Dragon's Den here i come!
 
i think that depends on the customer though, i do at least 10 a year in my gtfour and am yet to see any photos worthy of the 30 quid price tag, although you are right in that many many people love the static car park type photos, i too think they can look nice but i just like variety in shots you know, like some panning , some static, some from the front some at rear.

think i just fussy. Haha

maybe its because when i take photos at trackday or 750mc championship i take photos i would like of my own car i suppose.

both types interest me though. just need a variation. :)
 
dalegt4 said:
i think that depends on the customer though, i do at least 10 a year in my gtfour and am yet to see any photos worthy of the 30 quid price tag, although you are right in that many many people love the static car park type photos, i too think they can look nice but i just like variety in shots you know, like some panning , some static, some from the front some at rear.
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I think this is because you're interested in photography enough to be on a photography forum. If you had no interest in, or knowledge of, photography you'd probably be buying the shots you're talking about and thinking they were great. Most of the standards of quality/interestingness have been invented and maintained by people interested in photography.
 
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Its an interesting discussion to be fair - what is a decent photo and what is it your customers want.

The answers are totally variable!

I know some highly commercially successful motorsport togs who's images are totally and utterly static and centrally composed and all sorts, yet seem to make buckets of money out of them. I'm not going to name them, but one in particular is VERY successful.

We TP photographers tend to chase the dream of unusual, creative and difficult shots to achieve. The difficulty is the key, whilst its a lovely challenge it doesn't yield the hit rate suffucient for something as commercial photography.

I'd love to say I could go out and put 500 usable shots onto a screen 10 minutes after a trackday, but I couldn't unless I had an easy to win setup which wouldn't be, in my book, interesting. I'm sure they'd sell to a captive market but creativity and interest content would be low.

Which is why I don't do it :)
 
I've only ever seen them at Cadwell Park, but it has always puzzled me who would buy a photo from the "official" (according to the signs) photographer who takes photos of cars on their way into the circuit as they are driving towards the paddock at 10mph or less the start of the day.

I had a look through at some of the photos I bought when I used to do lots of track days in my road car (12 - 15 years ago), and I didn't ever buy any static type shots. I bought some panned shots and others that showed a degree of movement in the car. These had all been shot on film camera, with the films developed on site over lunchtime, printed (6x9), mounted and bagged ready for purchase (£10 each) by early afternoon. Whilst none would win awards these days for sharpness or creativity, they were good enough to sell commercially and for the photographer (I hope) to make a reasonable living.
 
I was at a track day on the Nurburgring last week. The photographer for the event was Frozenspeed. I've been there before and bought his work post-event previously. The reason I've done so is because his photos are in the main not this awful 'car frozen in motion everything sharp' photos.

His photos have movement, they have blur and they properly show, err, frozen speed. They even make my old shed of a Golf look great AND if you know the 'ring you know where they were shot, because there are sufficient surroundings around the car. An example from 2010:

DNB_0079.jpg.jpg


I had no hesitation handing over 50Euros for all of the shots of my car from the event, prior to setting a wheel on track.

Arty photos can and do sell, provided the correct balance is struck. I've been to Castle Combe on many occasions and past the first time out, when The Wife bought one of the circuit photographer's shots I have not bought any since, because they are all this run of the mill dirge.

Given the frame rate of the cameras these guys are using trackside there is no excuse NOT to shoot panning shots and get a sufficiently high rate of keepers to fill their pockets, AS WELL as the dull car-parked-on-a-track shots - you could even switch modes on alternate laps to mix it up.

Rather than whining about competition and getting potentially competing shooters thrown off site it would be much better if the established togs took the competition as a hint to up their game and out-smart the competition instead of strong-arming them.

Today's SLRs really offer an unprecedented creative opportunity for these guys. Why aren't they grabbing it? Is it just laziness, or fear of the unknown?
 
For me to sell well at my trackdays, which I do, means getting variety, which I do. Its pretty simple, give your customers what they want, most of the time that means getting them looking cool and fast into whatever corner. If someone asks for F1 style superfast looking wide angle pans, then great, I get to do something a bit more interesting for a while. But most will say, oh the car is too small I can’t see me etc, so I only do it if someone asks.

And Desatnik is right, you need to instantly have photos up for sale, straight from your camera, but any trackday photographer who can't do that without lowering his shutter speed below 1/250 or something, shouldn't be doing trackday photography. As Diamond Hell said, there is no excuse not to, its not that hard to do.

When I figure out how to post photos into threads on here (someone help!), I'll put up some examples of what you expect from the trackdays that I cover.
 
Seriously, if I needed twenty or thirty shots of every car that were usable in every session, you'd have to go for reasonably safe.

I like to think I know what I'm doing and with good equipment, but to get that hit rate you'd need to shoot safe, which doesn't leave much space for creativity.

Having a dozen blinders from the day of random cars will earn you nothing.
 
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