Scanner focussing - amazing what just a tiny difference makes

FishyFish

FishyFish

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Nige
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I scanned a few negatives on my V550 this lunchtime and spotted that the film was slightly bowed. Not by much - less than a millimetre. I scanned them nontheless but then thought the images were a little softer than I'd expect from my Zeiss Mess-Ikonta, so I re-scanned them and used the little scanner insert thingy to keep them flat. This is the before and after comparison on a zoomed-in section of ther negative - it's amazing the difference it makes.

v550 scan height difference.JPG
 
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Fairly recently I scanned a 5x4 neg and was horrified to see how soft part of the image was, initially thinking that I'd inadvertedly had some swing on one of the standards that wasn't planned and thus causing a blurred/ OOF effect on a section of the image.

Upon checking the negative close up, the whole scene was sharp so a rescan and hey presto all was good.

Somewhere the film or the holder was not lying properly in the scanner!

Something to be aware of if …...Best to check negs close up if scans fail to give a sharp result!
 
This is something I often wonder about, the negative holder itself is a millimetre or two thick and even at 35mm the neg is often bowed in the holder so the centre is nearer to the glass than the edge, although it rarely seems to make such a difference. But this could be because the magic imp in the scanner can compensate for this difference or more likely because it is simply not noticeable amongst all the other faults on my photos.
 
So, these were MF images, Nige? Scanned in the holder?

I've got two LF images from a month or so ago that I've still not scanned. This is partly because it's a faff to set the V500 up (I rarely use it, so it sits in its box), but also because I'm worried that putting 4x5 negatives direct on the scanner glass will (a) give Newton's Rings, and (b) be slightly out of focus. Scanner holder raise the negative around 1 mm above the glass.

Have you experimented with putting them directly on the glass versus in the scanner holder, to see what the difference in the results is?
 
ChrisR said:
So, these were MF images, Nige? Scanned in the holder?
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Yep, some 120 FP4+ in the Epson holders that came with the scanner. I used the little plastic card thing that comes with the holder that flattens the negs (still in the holder). It’s a bit of a faff though as you can only scan one frame at a time (6x6) due to the size of the card.

I've got two LF images from a month or so ago that I've still not scanned. This is partly because it's a faff to set the V500 up (I rarely use it, so it sits in its box), but also because I'm worried that putting 4x5 negatives direct on the scanner glass will (a) give Newton's Rings, and (b) be slightly out of focus. Scanner holder raise the negative around 1 mm above the glass.

Have you experimented with putting them directly on the glass versus in the scanner holder, to see what the difference in the results is?
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I’ve never tried placing negs on the scanner glass. You can’t adjust focus on the V550 so, like yourself, I’ve just assumed they’d be out of focus and / or covered in Newton’s rings. I’ve seen videos with people placing them on the glass with scanner fluid, but that might’ve been a different model.
 
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ChrisR said:
it's a faff to set the V500 up (I rarely use it, so it sits in its box), but also because I'm worried that putting 4x5 negatives direct on the scanner glass will (a) give Newton's Rings, and (b) be slightly out of focus. Scanner holder raise the negative around 1 mm above the glass.
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FishyFish said:
I’ve never tried placing negs on the scanner glass. You can’t adjust focus on the V550 so, like yourself, I’ve just assumed they’d be out of focus and / or covered in Newton’s rings.
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I have never owned the V500 / V550 so can't comment directly on it's use however, the V700 that I use to scan 5x4 negs using the supplied negative holder will ( according to epsons specs) scan 10 x 8 negs just fine by placing them directly on the glass of the scanner.

I have not tried it as I don't shoot the larger format , although I guess that I could experiment with a 5x4 neg.

It does seem peculiar that epson state direct on glass scanning is possible yet they supply a neg holder for the smaller sheet film.

The only way for you guys to know for sure is to try …..It's not like it costs anything except a bit of time.
 
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Thinking about it some more, you can of course scan a print or a paper document directly on the glass and it is in focus which leaves me wondering what "focus" means in terms of a scanner. My hunch is that it is probably set up for things on the glass and close to it but as things move away from the glass then there is an effective loss of resolution as each photo-sensor picks up and “averages” light from a larger part of the image.
 
I thought that there were two different scan heads involved, one in the lower body for documents and one in the lid for transparent media?
 
StephenM said:
I thought that there were two different scan heads involved, one in the lower body for documents and one in the lid for transparent media?
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Me too!

Looking at the v700 there are two heads like you describe.
 
And they are presumbaly both set up for things close to the glass?
 
I'd presume that the lower (document) part expects the document to be placed on the glass (from memory the lower end Epson flatbeds will all scan A4 papers, but are limited in the area of film they can scan) whereas, again presumably, the upper scan mechanism expects the film to be raised by a negative carrier.
 
StephenM said:
I thought that there were two different scan heads involved, one in the lower body for documents and one in the lid for transparent media?
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Oh, I didn't think that; I'd assumed there was a light in the lid rather than a moving scanner head...
 
Interesting; presumably the Epson specs can set us right. I must admit that I was making an assumption, which is always dangerous.
 
StephenM said:
Interesting; presumably the Epson specs can set us right. I must admit that I was making an assumption, which is always dangerous.
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The only reference I can find is:

"To scan film strips or slides, you need to remove the document mat from the scanner cover. This uncovers the transparency unit window so your scanner can use it to scan your film or slides."

... which is ambiguous! But I think it hints towards light rather than a moving part...
 
I thought the thing in the lid was just an illuminator, with two scan heads in the base. One is high res for film in a holder, but not full width, and the other is full width for paper or film on the glass, but lower res. That way, only one high precision mechanism is needed for both scan heads.
 
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Sounds reasonable...
 
This whole post makes me sad as I've had nothing but frustration out of my V550. The damn thing is so glitchy, it only works if you use their carrier. And I find it impossible to get sharp images from it. Comparing what I can do to Filmdev small scans makes me cry. With the betterscanning holders, or straight on the glass, it will often glitch out and need a PC & scanner reboot. I wish with all my heart the Plustec Optic 120 was still manufactured.

FishyFish said:
little scanner insert thingy
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What is this? I don't have one for my V550...
 
What software and operating system are you using? I've used Epson flatbeds for probably about 15 years and never had to reboot anything.
 
Harlequin565 said:
This whole post makes me sad as I've had nothing but frustration out of my V550. The damn thing is so glitchy, it only works if you use their carrier. And I find it impossible to get sharp images from it. Comparing what I can do to Filmdev small scans makes me cry. With the betterscanning holders, or straight on the glass, it will often glitch out and need a PC & scanner reboot. I wish with all my heart the Plustec Optic 120 was still manufactured.
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I've never had to reboot mine (although I had to run it in administrator mode for a while when I got a new hard drive). I wonder if the unit has a fault?

What is this? I don't have one for my V550...
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One if these. It's clipped to the 120 holder:

20190514_160244_resize_3.jpg
 
FishyFish said:
Upwards, away from the glass, towards the lid.
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So may be there is an element of "depth-of-field" where anything between the glass and the film holder is sharp and beyond that it goes out of focus.

If I get time tonight I might have a play


Harlequin565 said:
This whole post makes me sad as I've had nothing but frustration out of my V550. The damn thing is so glitchy, it only works if you use their carrier. And I find it impossible to get sharp images from it. Comparing what I can do to Filmdev small scans makes me cry. With the betterscanning holders, or straight on the glass, it will often glitch out and need a PC & scanner reboot. I wish with all my heart the Plustec Optic 120 was still manufactured.

What is this? I don't have one for my V550...
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What software are you using? I found the Epson software to be buggy so having tried a couple of alternatives I went over to an application which I cannot mention on here because last time I did I got thoroughly told off and told that I was completely wrong, how very dare I, etc.Anyway I find the V550 plus the unmentionable (might as well say Jehovah) to be a pretty good combination, as evidenced by the above scan.

My 120 holder has the little insert the Nige mentioned, it is litterally a piece of thin black plastic 6cm wide which you can insert in the film holder on top of the neg to hold it flat.
 
Harlequin565 said:
Hmm. Not got one of those... It never came with it. Great.
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As Chris says, it's just a small piece of thin plastic to hold the negs flat (you can put it above or below them, depending on the direction of the bow). You could easily make one yourself - a piece of one of those flexible plastic dividers in a ring-binder would probably be ok cut to size, for example. In fact, while I use the official flattener thingy, I also use a bit of folded up Post-It note if I need to keep both ends flat. :)
 
Asha said:
Me too!

Looking at the v700 there are two heads like you describe.
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sirch said:
And they are presumbaly both set up for things close to the glass?
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In actual fact with the negative ( of a 5x4 sheet for example) is sat in its holder and with the glass being slightly recessed in the lid of the scanner, there is approxiametly 3mm - 4mm between emaulsion side of film and scanner glass.

Putting the neg direct on the glass of the base body part of the scanner would increase that said distance by another 1mm .

Read from that what you will.....
 
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I'm struggling to find the Epson info concerning the scanning of 10x8 dorect on the glass of a V700, however I have come across this ( Sourse LF photography forum):

"
Re: scanning 8x10" film by Epson V700 scanner



For 8x10 you use the film area guide, which is a flimsy plastic mask that surrounds the film. I'm pretty happy scanning 8x10 at 600dpi, but I don't do anything too serious with the files. I've set the film on the scanner glass, and on a sheet of glass to gain height, but I got newton rings when adding my own sheet of glass, and didn't see appreciable difference in image quality scanning at 600dpi. "​
​



I might add that I don't think I have the "flimsy plastic mask" not that shoot 10x8 ...Yet!!!​
I wonder if the mask simply situates the neg exactly in the centre of the glass or if ( for whatever purpose) it is slightly offset.

I'll continue to search…...
 
Asha said:
so do you scan your negs with emulsion down? ( towards the bottom of the scanner?)

I always scan umulsion side up!
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It should be 'shiny side' down on Epson 550 and 600 Photo scanners, otherwise it will scan back to front.
 
I appreciate that I'm offering details of the V700 and not the 500/550 but as they of the same manufacturer, perhaps many areas of construction are similar?

Anyway for what it's worth here is a pic ( fonund on the net) of the film guide ( which I do not possess) for 10 x 8

It is clear that with the guide in place, the negative will sit direct on the glass and will not be raised.

That tells me that scanning any format film direct on the glass is possible.8100GiHWVKL._SL1500_.jpg
 
Mr Badger said:
It should be 'shiny side' down on Epson 550 and 600 Photo scanners, otherwise it will scan back to front.
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That is no big deal tbh as the image can be reversed either in scanning software after "preview" or in PP after scanning.

Does it actually make any difference to the scanned result ( sharpness etc) if the negs are placed emulsion side up or down?
 
Asha said:
That is no big deal tbh as the image can be reversed either in scanning software after "preview" or in PP after scanning.

Does it actually make any difference to the scanned result ( sharpness etc) if the negs are placed emulsion side up or down?
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Colour negs seem to look better when scanned the right way round on my V600, not tried slides or B&W back to front.
 
This pdf relates to the V500

https://files.support.epson.com/docid/cpd3/cpd39283.pdf

Look at pages 50, 51 and 52 concerning scanning with epson scan. In particular using "professional mode" ( page 50) and "document source" ( page 52)

I have just scanned a 5x4 neg twice ( on a V700)....in holder and direct on glass and it is nigh on impossible ( for me anyway) to see the differences.

I'll post the results just as soon as the computer reduces the file sizes down to 900 from 22,000 !!!
 
Asha said:
so do you scan your negs with emulsion down? ( towards the bottom of the scanner?)

I always scan umulsion side up!
Click to expand...

I scan them the way recommended in the Epson manual. Basically, if I look down on the negs when they're in the holder on the glass, then they'll be back to front (e.g it'll say +5PH DROFLI on the edge of the negs or something). Depending on the film stock, they can bow in different directions.
 
Neither has had any adjustments, no sharpening, nothing...just plain scans

Looking again there is a tad more contrast in the "holder" version which could be interpreted as being sharper but to me, the differences are minimal and not beyond a very minor pp adjustment

In holder:

TP1.jpg

On glass:

TP2.jpg
 
So I thought I'd spoil a good debate with some facts, sorry, albeit very inconclusive facts ...

Firstly there would just appear to be a light source in the lid of the scanner as @Nomad Z said. Secondly I have scanned the same neg three times, firstly in the film holder, secondly sitting on a piece of 3mm glass (actually 3.5mm thick - I was surprised how far out it was) and the third is on the scanner platen. For reference the film holder is 1mm thick where the film sits and these samples are taken from the edge of the scanned image.

HolderSpacerPlaten by TheWub, on Flickr

I'm hard pressed to see the difference and it doesn't agree at all with Nige's example at the top of the thread. Anyway it's a way to pass an hour...
 
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