Shooting 3fps what is the real world flash output of the main portable flash systems?

V8burble

V8burble

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I currently use a Profoto ProB4-1000 running a pair of heads which at about 2/3rds power can happily fire off 3 or 4 shots at 3fps without loss of power and maintaining the required exposure... which is perfect for what I am doing. The only down side is that it is very expensive and so I hire it for the day when required. However I am now requiring it a bit more regularly and so the £120/day rental is beginning to add up.

So, I'm looking to see what lower end solution could give the same performance but at a more affordable price. Maybe 3 or 4 Quadras for example. But looking at recycle times quoted it's impossible to know what real power is possible at 3fps.

If anyone has any of the more popular systems... Elinchrom, Bessel etc (I'm even considering clusters of Speedlights like the Li-Ion Godox) would you be able/willing to see what bare flash output you can get over 3 or 4 flashes at 3fps consistently that is, without dropping? I guess a light metre reading at 1m or some repeatable test could give meaningful results, I'm open to suggestions on that one.

Thanks
 
I should add that my total budget is IRO £3k and whilst flash duration is important I think most systems will give me the duration I need... my subject being underwater swimming. these being the topside strobes and synchronised with my underwater fill strobes.
 
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Tough call. B4 is like £5k-plus with one head, and pretty unique spec isn't it?

Is mains power an option? What kind of flash durations do you need, in terms of real shutter speed equivalents?
 
Yes the B4 with 2 heads is about £8.5k which is just too much, damn good unit though.
I guess about 1/800-1/1000th should do and as hard light to create light ripples through the water surface on to the background

Has to be battery as in a swimming pool, wouldn't like to trust an RCD
 
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V8burble said:
Yes the B4 with 2 heads is about £8.5k which is just too much, damn good unit though.
I guess about 1/800-1/1000th should do and as hard light to create light ripples through the water surface on to the background
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Mains? I'm just thinking about the new Elinchrom ELC HD Pro 1000Ws and 500Ws monolights that have fast enough durations and recycle times, and in budget.
 
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i guess I should pop over to Strobists and see what a cluster of Li-ion speed lights can do at lower power settings, I'm just not sure they would collectively have the umph but don't really know
 
You can do it with the Atom 180 or 360, no problem. I would have to check on Monday to see how far the power needs to go down to get 4 frames a second, but I don't see a problem, and if you use the power doubler then recycling time is halved
And then there's the Profoto B1, a couple of them will take up your budget but it's a solution
Or you use use mains powered heads, with an inverter. The SuperFast 300 will give you 4 frames per second at 150 watt seconds, so will the SuperFast 600.

All of the above are very consistent

I could be wrong about this, but I think that the B4 is the only portable unit that can manage the recycling speed you need, I don't know of any affordable ones that can do that.
 
Most useful, thank you Mike.

I'll do some tests with the Profoto B4 that I've got for the w/e as I've got a shoot to do some comparisons but my gut feeling is that I'd probably need at least 6 units to match the 2 Profoto heads in this instance which although a lot would still be very much cheaper than the B4.
 
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A couple of Broncolor Siros S monoblocks (available January) and a Godox inverter to power them sound like an equal match for the B4.

Colour stable, very quick recycling and flash durations, wifi enabled for slick control from an iOS device and in budget.
 
gazwas said:
A couple of Broncolor Siros S monoblocks (available January) and a Godox inverter to power them sound like an equal match for the B4.

Colour stable, very quick recycling and flash durations, wifi enabled for slick control from an iOS device and in budget.
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Thanks, I'll look into it.

With this being located on the edge of a swimming pool I do worry about mains voltage even inverter derived, however I'm not an electrician but I'm sure it's the high voltage that's bad. I'm happy to be corrected though
 
V8burble said:
With this being located on the edge of a swimming pool I do worry about mains voltage even inverter derived
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I may be wrong but I always thought battery generators (ProB4/Move1200L etc) were basically inverters (plus a bunch of other stuff)?

Seems to me you've been using one already next to water, although unknowingly.
 
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gazwas said:
I may be wrong but I always thought battery generators (ProB4/Move1200L etc) were basically inverters (plus a bunch of other stuff)?

Seems to me you've been using one already next to water, although unknowingly.
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You're not wrong, in the sense that the do invert the voltage. The 'final' figure varies widely, but is likely to be in the region of 700v - which is a lot less than the capacitor voltage of a typical mains powered unit, but high enough to keep safe when near water.
We do have customers who use the Safari for all sorts of water-based sports, from boat racing to underwater swimming though, they just take sensible precautions.
 
Calumet have kindly lent me a full set of different systems incl B1, B2, B4 etc to play with over the w/e.... will see what each is capable of at least... although I can see me ending up with the B4 LOL.
 
Don't buy anything until you test a Broncolor Move 1200L. Amazing battery system, faster, more powerful, smaller, lighter and unbelievably cheaper than the B4.

Move 1200L with Para 88 would be a match made in heaven for the type of work you are doing. The B4 won't touch this combination IMO.
 
Don't worry I wont, I remember when the Bron came out... it looked very interesting then. I haven't got my hands on one yet but def will thanks.... the heads are lighter too which is a plus for me as I use an 8ft boom on the A head which with the Pro head Plus requires a lot of counterweight LOL.
 
Additionally regarding the heads, I've just returned from a shoot in China that required some video and the head and battery is all you need to shoot 5600K daylight. The mini reflector that is standard with the MobiLED heads is excellent for this as it had a very even even spread of illumination. For photohraphy its a bit boring and prefer centre weighted reflectors but for video its great and soooo compact for travel. The Move is one amazing multi format lighting tool!!
 
I remember watching a YouTube review by Karl Taylor that was very pro Bron.... And had a Para88 make an appearance.... Very much a contender at the moment, from the entire range of Profoto the B4 is the only one in the running.
How is the MobiLED head for hot and humid conditions? It doesn't look as robust as the Profoto head but I've not had one in my hand yet.
 
V8burble said:
How is the MobiLED head for hot and humid conditions? It doesn't look as robust as the Profoto head but I've not had one in my hand yet.
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I know the video you mention and while it is very Bron weighted its all mostly completely true. IMO Profoto just didn't expect the Move when they released the B4 and the only thing better for the B4 is Profoto's dominance in rental.

The MobiLED head is built like a tank much like the bigger Pulso heads. I was a Profoto shooter and knew very little about Bron until I visited a photo show to look at their Para's (adaptable to many mounts) as the Profoto's versions are not great in comparison and was introduced to Move and Scoro.

One thing I can pretty much guarantee is in 20 years time a MobiLED head will be in as good (probably much better) shape than the equivalent Profoto head. The heads are absolutly solid - stronger than metal IMO. Being fan cooled, (only run with modelling lights and when being pushed hard) fans can fail and need replacing but apart from that I see no issues. A Bron service guy told me the head will run perfectly fine without fans but it extend the life of the LED's. Many Pulso heads from the 80's and 90's still work as good today as the day they were purchased without ever needing to visit a repair shop - Bron gear lasts forever.
 
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V8burble said:
I'm going to have to visit the Pro Centre aren't I LOL, thanks for your recommendations
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Once you've experienced one of the Move kits in the rolling back packs and you see how well put together the package is and the quality of the kit you'll be hooked. The RFS2.1 transmitters are great also as they are so small but do everything an Air Remote does at a fraction of the size.

The one thing to note about the kits is don't judge the rather excellent Bron softbox range by the flex softbox supplied in the Move kits...... not terrible but not a patch on the new range.
 
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Yes the Move kit 1 has a free second MobiLED head promotion at Pro Centre until tomorrow..... looks like I'll be paying them a visit in the morning then ;-)
 
Get your credit card ready then - you'll 100% be leaving with a dent in it with that great deal. I got free extra batteries with mine but would have prefered the head deal. There is also a Para 88 deal on as well where you get a free grid but the best option is provably a Move Para kit (Para 88) with the free head.

EDIT: Just noticed the free head is only on the Move kit 1 (one head kit) so you'd have to buy a Para on its own if you wanted one but you'd benefit from the light grid offer.
 
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Yes for my immediate needs I can get away without the Para but after Christmas it's one to save for. I'm already looking at a couple of grand more than I'd like LOL, no change there then :runaway:
 
Well, interestingly it wasn't the Bron walkover I was expecting!

On paper you would imagine that the Bron would have the edge on output at 3fps being quoted as 0.9s full power recycle (same as the Profoto)in speed mode with optimal duration rather than min duration, being a 1200 pack rather than 1000. However, side by side with the B4 ....... the Bron couldn't quite keep up with the Profoto and missed frames in the exact settings that I use for my specific requirements.
By turning down the head working the hardest by two tengths there was a bit of room left in the recycle time and it could keep going at 3fps for as long as you like, and the second head could be turned up a few tengths before it missed frames again.

This turned into a real investigation as to whether the Bron could take the place of the B4 for me in my specific scenario.

After much messing with reflective brollies, minute changes of flash distances and almost endless light meter readings I finally came to the conclusion that the Bron could JUST do the job, but no where near as close a call as I expected it to be I can tell you.

So Profoto B4 set at:
A head 165J
B head 41J
No problem at 3fps with no drop/missed fires

Bron Move set at:
1 head 139J
2 head 45J ( and able to be raised to about 55J)
No problem at 3fps with no missed fires, however raise the A head by one tenth and it can't fire on every shot


In real terms at a 2 m distance this equated to a drop in light of around 1 to 2 tenths of a stop depending on the brollie used, exact placement being impossible with two different head designs and reflectors of course which made the final decision all the more difficult I can tell you. But in the end I pulled the trigger on the Bron, so an interesting and slightly anxious wait for my first shoot in January!!
 
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Interesting results and a surprising find. However, in the defence of the Bron it will not let you fire the flash unless is has the full charge for a consistent result. All the Profoto's I've owned and used (so can't imagine the B4 is any different) will happily let you trigger the flash if at full charge or not.
 
Yes B4 is the same.... although I think there are also times when under exposed is better than no flash at all and no shot, depending on the nature of the shoot. Ideally I'd like a toggle setting to make that choice.
 
gazwas said:
Interesting results and a surprising find. However, in the defence of the Bron it will not let you fire the flash unless is has the full charge for a consistent result. All the Profoto's I've owned and used (so can't imagine the B4 is any different) will happily let you trigger the flash if at full charge or not.
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When Profotos fire at less than full charge, they make a different beep to let you know.
 
Finally received my Bron Move kit yesterday from the Pro Centre. All looks good from initial tests but with first paid shoot for it next week we will see how it performs in anger. Let's hope it does the job as it's going to take quite a number of months to pay for itself LOL.
 
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