Shooting into light. Hazy - misty effect.

[FlyTVR]

I appreciate that shooting into sun can be difficult.

However, on the weekend I realised that I didn't really understand why a shot I was trying to take simply did not work.

Scenario. Sitting in the middle of a large restaurant, my daughter with her back to the window - me opposite. When I took a shot of her there was a misty effect to the shot. The light from the window was NOT intense.

I originally thought that this was caused by the ligth from the window bouncing around inside the lens - so I upped the aperture (smaller ap - bigger F). This had no effect. I used flash and that sorted it.

So, what was going on?

 

[Lunaticsamurai]

Ambient light inside the building, light enters the building bounces of everything inside, mixes with particles ie, steam, heat, dust.

 

[slimboy fat]

My guess is that you've got a filter attached to the lens.

Otherwise.... I don't know.

 

[Liam]

 

[Arkady]

My guess is that you've got a filter attached to the lens.

Otherwise.... I don't know.

My 'guess' is that you just don't know...

The camera was metering from the large expanse of light coming from the window, rather than the subject (your daughter), which occupied a relatively small percentage of the frame.
Using fill-flash effectively lowered the subject luminance range and allowed your camera to record the scene properly.

Had you pointed the camera down (or moved closer to the subject) so as to exclude the light from behind her, then locked that exposure setting either by using manual or one of the exposure lock facilities, you'd have achieved a similar result but with the light from the window blowing out completely.
There would still be a possibility of light 'bleed' causing some 'misting' as you call it. Fill-flash, you notice will have all but eliminated it completely.

 

[FlyTVR]

My 'guess' is that you just don't know...

The camera was metering from the large expanse of light coming from the window, rather than the subject (your daughter), which occupied a relatively small percentage of the frame.
Using fill-flash effectively lowered the subject luminance range and allowed your camera to record the scene properly.

Had you pointed the camera down (or moved closer to the subject) so as to exclude the light from behind her, then locked that exposure setting either by using manual or one of the exposure lock facilities, you'd have achieved a similar result but with the light from the window blowing out completely.
There would still be a possibility of light 'bleed' causing some 'misting' as you call it. Fill-flash, you notice will have all but eliminated it completely.

Thanks 'all' for the replies.

With regards to metering I was using spot - in AV mode. My daughter's face took up most of the frame. So, I don't think this was down to metering. Obviously I could be wrong - hence the thread

I forgot to say that I repeated the shot in manual mode - same result.

This lens does have a filter attached. Anyone shed more light on this theory?

 

[treeman]

I was going to be churlish and say "what do you expect from a Canon"

But seriously the pic would really help solve this one

 

[FlyTVR]

I was going to be churlish and say "what do you expect from a Canon"

But seriously the pic would really help solve this one

I went back and tried it with a 'Nykon' but the bloody thing broke down

I'll see if I can dig up the shot.

 

[Arkady]

This lens does have a filter attached. Anyone shed more light on this theory?

It's not a 'theory' in this instance - it's 'borrox'...

 

[davekiddle]

This lens does have a filter attached. Anyone shed more light on this theory?

Sounds to me like you were getting flare caused by the filter. What sort of filter is it - i.e. is it a coated filter or a cheapy?

 

[david1701]

slightly increased amount of internal reflection, more noticeable on cheap filters, using a cheap lens will have the same effect

pic please, oh and you know in spot you need to lock the exposure on the face then recompose, as if the spot was outside .....

 

[FlyTVR]

slightly increased amount of internal reflection, more noticeable on cheap filters, using a cheap lens will have the same effect

Thanks.

pic please, oh and you know in spot you need to lock the exposure on the face then recompose, as if the spot was outside .....

Yes, I use EL (and FEL) normally. However there was no recomposition in this shot. Also, don't forget I re-shot using manual.

 

[FlyTVR]

Interesting that I've never seen this with the lens / filter before.

 

[tdodd]

You say the light outside was not intense, but by the time you'd set the exposure to suit your daughter's face I imagine the outside scene was very much overexposed - blown in fact. Now I don't know how to explain the cause of the misting, but I have seen a similar effect when people are trying to shoot in the studio and send the background completely white. If they overcook the background (not simply to clipping point but maybe a stop beyond) then the subject takes on a misty/faded look too.

Once you added flash, then whether by accident or design I suspect your ambient background exposure got lowered and the "flare" or whatever it should be called, subsided.

p.s. pics might help.

 

[FlyTVR]

You say the light outside was not intense, but by the time you'd set the exposure to suit your daughter's face I imagine the outside scene was very much overexposed - blown in fact. Now I don't know how to explain the cause of the misting, but I have seen a similar effect when people are trying to shoot in the studio and send the background completely white. If they overcook the background (not simply to clipping point but maybe a stop beyond) then the subject takes on a misty/faded look too.

Once you added flash, then whether by accident or design I suspect your ambient background exposure got lowered and the "flare" or whatever it should be called, subsided.

p.s. pics might help.

I'm at work at mo so can't get a photo right now. I'll check if I still have it when I get home.

Isn't the studio effect just spill from around the subject outline?

 

[Liam]

Is the filter coated?

I will place my money on light reflecting between the front element and the filter.

 

[tdodd]

I'm at work at mo so can't get a photo right now. I'll check if I still have it when I get home.

Isn't the studio effect just spill from around the subject outline?

I remember seeing the effect while watching a video tutorial. Unfortunately I don't remember which one. There was an issue of "wraparound" lighting from the background, which would only affect the edges, but I'm sure I saw an example where severe overexposure of the background led to a general "misting" of the whole subject. Of course, if your background was not blown out then that's not the answer.

 

[FlyTVR]

I remember seeing the effect while watching a video tutorial. Unfortunately I don't remember which one. There was an issue of "wraparound" lighting from the background, which would only affect the edges, but I'm sure I saw an example where severe overexposure of the background led to a general "misting" of the whole subject. Of course, if your background was not blown out then that's not the answer.

Still interesting

 

[david1701]

if you don't want the shot public I can do the email thing.

missed the bit about manual, what was the lens and filter? I know my 85 dislikes backlighting and purple fringes where the 24-70 wouldn't

 

[FlyTVR]

if you don't want the shot public I can do the email thing.

missed the bit about manual, what was the lens and filter? I know my 85 dislikes backlighting and purple fringes where the 24-70 wouldn't

Happy to post the shot (if I can find it again)

Lens Sigma 24-70 2.8. Filter - off top of my head...... don't know. Will check when I get home.

 

[david1701]

sigma 24-70 can flare like a bitch, I think this is problem

 

[FlyTVR]

sigma 24-70 can flare like a bitch, I think this is problem

But under what conditions?

 

[tdodd]

Have a look about half way down this page for an example of flare and contrast loss with this lens....

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Sigma-24-70mm-F-2.8-EX-DG-Lens-Review.aspx

 

[FlyTVR]

Have a look about half way down this page for an example of flare and contrast loss with this lens....

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Sigma-24-70mm-F-2.8-EX-DG-Lens-Review.aspx

Wow. Apart from the 'nice' rainbow, it looks like a similar effect.

I did try shielding the lens with a menu. I thought it made a difference but then dismissed it. By this time my 3 yr old daughter was getting peed off with me so I couldn't carry out any real test.

Anyone want to buy a really nice Sigma 24-70?

Being serious, how susceptible is the Canon equivalent?

 

[david1701]

Wow. Apart from the 'nice' rainbow, it looks like a similar effect.

I did try shielding the lens with a menu. I thought it made a difference but then dismissed it. By this time my 3 yr old daughter was getting peed off with me so I couldn't carry out any real test.

Anyone want to buy a really nice Sigma 24-70?

Being serious, how susceptible is the Canon equivalent?

not, between that and the sharpness and the AF I found the thousand pounds

 

[Harvey_nikon]

I am going to take a guess that it'll be a similar effect to light bleed when working with studio lights with a little lens flare thrown in for goo measure.

Light coming in, bouncing around and entering the camera at various angles creating the effect.

Did you have a hood on?

 

[FlyTVR]

I am going to take a guess that it'll be a similar effect to light bleed when working with studio lights with a little lens flare thrown in for goo measure.

Light coming in, bouncing around and entering the camera at various angles creating the effect.

Did you have a hood on?

No - just my t-shirt - why?

Hood was on.

 

[tdodd]

As far as hood designs are concerned the implementation for the Sigma 24-70 looks to be very traditional, meaning that protection against flare at the long end is pretty weak, as the hood needs to be wide (short) enough to allow shooting at 24mm.

On the Canon 24-70 the lens zooms within the hood, withdrawing deep inside at the telephoto end and extending within the hood for wide angle. Thus the hood shape/size is optimised throughout the focal length range. This may contribute in part to better flare resistance, although I guess there may be other factors too.

 

[FlyTVR]

As far as hood designs are concerned the implementation for the Sigma 24-70 looks to be very traditional, meaning that protection against flare at the long end is pretty weak, as the hood needs to be wide (short) enough to allow shooting at 24mm.

On the Canon 24-70 the lens zooms within the hood, withdrawing deep inside at the telephoto end and extending within the hood for wide angle. Thus the hood shape/size is optimised throughout the focal length range. This may contribute in part to better flare resistance, although I guess there may be other factors too.

Thanks for that.

I'm really glad I started this thread - I have gained some really useful knowledge.

Thanks all.