Should i just give up?

Rivit

Rivit

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Name
Rachel
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I'm desperatly trying to get into wedding photography and i've just converted from SRL to DSRL. I've wanted to do it for years but never had the cash to get started. I'm not looking for a quick fix on a new career, i know it will takes years but I'm willing to put in all the hour required and I'm very willing to learn. Everyone ones says you need to be experienced but how can you become experienced if you don't start doing weddings. Everyone has to start somewhere right.

After everyone's advise to shadow a pro as a starting point I sent out a whole load of emails to photographers in my area, pleading with them for assistance. My god did I get some awful responses!

I was expecting lots of no's, after all I'm asking a lot. But some of them were just rude!

I mentioned in the email my equipment and one guy said there was no point what so ever... everyone thats got 40D and a 24-105mm lens thinks they can be a wedding photographer! He went on to say he invested 20k in equipment (including a loft conversion, the relevance of which baffles me) before becoming the main tog! I've never forget the quote someone made in this forum about the photographer taking the picture not the camera!

I feel totally deflated!!!! He even went on to say that I had made typo's in the email and if I had no attention to detail I'd never be a good photographer!

I found this really offensive. I'm actually dyslexic and commonly get letters the wrong way round like 40D instead of D40 and vice versa, much to everyone's annoyance (most of all my own), but does that really mean I could never make it as a photographer?

I feel like jacking it all in right now and I'm hoping someone, somewhere out there can bust my confidence and tell me what to do next! :shrug:
 
The response you mention there speaks volumes. About the toss pot who sent it.

Have a beer, relax and chill.
 
I did much the same as you but had more positive responses. I found that phoning rather than e-mailing was a far more effective strategy. I'm now good friends with a wedding photographer up here and I've been out on a wedding with him as a second shooter. I first got in contact with him by just calling around a few photographers that I had already pre-selected as having a similar style to the one that I aspire to.

I also had a couple of friends getting married over the summer and did the photos for them, I can highly recommend that for experience. I learnt so, so much.

It's all about getting a break and there is much you can do yourself to make that happen, it's not all luck, the phrase 'you make your own luck' is very true. Just keep plugging away at it and keep your head up.

If you really are committed, and good at what you do, then something will happen for you.
 
Hi

I have experienced the 'pro-tog' attitude to wedding newbies or as he calls them 'Weekend Warriors'. Just ignore them tbh. They obviously don't want competition in their area!

This is how we started:

We went to a cousins wedding and my wife, who just took her camera along took a load of photos of the couple and guests. She showed these to the bride & groom and they said they were great. Other people she showed them to thought they were brilliant and suggested she took it up as a business.

She gave it some thought and invested in a Wedding Photography course run by Barrett & Coe. They taught her all about the business side as well as the photography side. It is quite expensive but it was a worthwhile investment and don't think we could have succeeded without the knowledge it gave.

After, we put together a show album from my cousins wedding. I created a website, advertised ourselves on all the wedding listing sites we could find and placed reciprocal links on our site, took the free ads in Thompsons and Yellow Pages, went down to the town hall and grabbed a load of names & addresses from the announcements (can't remember the exact name of these - something like bands(s)) and did a mailshot, dropped a load of business cards off at hairdressers, dress shops etc. We also did a couple of wedding shows (waste of money tbh!!)

I took up photography in this period and was an assistant and 2nd photographer.

Slowly we began to get enquiries and finally a booking! In 2 years of trading we took on 20 weddings, 20+ portraits and 3 school proms! We only gave it up because we were employed full time and just had our daughter. We didn't have any time to ourselves let alone for our daughter! Shame but family first in our eyes.

We also had a relationship with a local Photography firm who does weddings and portraits and also are pro-printers. We put all our printing through them and they referred people to us and we referred to them which was pretty profitable.

Don't let them put you down, pick yourself up and get yourself out there!

btw, we started on EOS 3 and 30 film cameras and then onto a 20D (28-135 is) and 300D (kit lens). Not exactly pro kit but they did the job for us!!


Best of luck!
 
his response suggests he is insecure about his own abilities and afraid of the competition ;)
 
oops, I forgot potty mouthedness wasn't allowed round here...
 
Its so good to hear that there are people out there that thinks its worth a try!

Thanks guys for getting me through my wobbly moment!

I'm off to make some calls to a few more photographer's (maybe go further a field so they're not worried about competition).

Really appreciate the support! If i ever get a wedding, i'll post some pic's.

;)
 
:agree: with walls he's clearly not confident in his own abilities and sees you as a threat. Hence the rude and offensive e-mail.

Don't let him put you off in fact use him as the inspiration you need to succeed!

The last wedding I went to I was approached by the official photographer and was expecting a what do you think you're doing! conversation.... turned out he knew me and thought he'd say high... I made the comment about kit and his reply was it's not what you've got it's how you use it.:) Sadly for me I don't use it that well either!
 
maddog.mark said:
:agree: with walls he's clearly not confident in his own abilities and sees you as a threat. Hence the rude and offensive e-mail.

Don't let him put you off in fact use him as the inspiration you need to succeed!

The last wedding I went to I was approached by the official photographer and was expecting a what do you think you're doing! conversation.... turned out he knew me and thought he'd say high... I made the comment about kit and his reply was it's not what you've got it's how you use it.:) Sadly for me I don't use it that well either!
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Yeah, i had a nice chat with the pro in my last wedding, he shot with a Nikon 2DX with a flash bracket and we talked about his work, and he shot in Jpeg :eek:

He thought I was another pro hired for the job but I told him I am a friend doing it for the B&G he seems really relaxed.

To top it off, my pics turned out better than his from what I can see on his website.:clap:
 
Rivit,
it is a fact that to provide the service you are thinking of, you will have to make some investments in equipment to produce the expected quality.
Perhaps this guy needed to invest 20k to produce a decent image but let's be honest and cut all the brand loyalty c**p. If you took the EXIF off all the pictures posted here, good or bad, what sort of hit rate would you have in identifying what they were taken with?
The quality of image produced by even a budget DSLR and a decent lens of any make can be excellent.

I believe that the adage that the photographer takes the picture not the camera could never be more true than with wedding photography. It's about people skills as much as photographic skills. I for one could never do it, even with 20k worth of kit, I'm just no good with people. If you have the people skills, you can learn the rest from a book. You probably just need to practice it.

I have a suggestion which you might consider. I take it you were proposing to shadow these guys for free?
I grew up on a wonderful council estate, you may have seen it on Police 5? It was often on the news, of course generaly people thought it was a story about Beirut but anyway, I digress. When it became known that I owned a camera that still had it's serial number and could be taken out in public, I frequently got asked to photograph weddings. Obviously I did all my family weddings but must have done half a dozen for friends and neighbours. I was quite selective and politely declined anyone who I knew to be an a**hole (60%) and declined to shoot the reception if I wasn't happy about it, but there are a lot of decent people out there who simply can't afford to pay pro prices.
I got a lot of experience out of it (well enough to know that I didn't want to be a wedding tog). In every case they were extremely grateful and happy with the results, even if I wasn't.
Why not try approaching the local church and see if they can hook you up with a few decent families who can't afford a photographer, on the basis that you'll shoot it for costs and provide the opportunity to buy only the pics they want from a printing service like Photobox or w.h.y.?
You get the experience, they get a Pro and only have to pay for pictures of the people they didn't have a punch up with at the reception.
 
As the others have said, don't give up after one round of e-mails. Be persistent in your efforts, but consider this perspective:

Most pro photogs out there who appear to know what they're doing are receiving requests like yours on a weekly or even daily basis. I've had more than my share of it, particularly when I was doing a lot of teaching. At first it's flattering, but it gets old quickly. I've received notes that were written in such a way that it appeared the writer felt I owed it to them to teach them what I do. (Actually had one that said I "owed it to photography" to mentor others.) I got one a few months ago where the writer informed me that she really wanted to learn everything I know, but she expected pay and benefits! Other times, the notes I've received are clearly from people who have no idea how to operate a camera, and yet want to be a second shooter. And if I don't send a reply to each and every person, I receive a second note asking why. After awhile, all the requests blur together, and I'll confess that by now, they all irritate me. (Hate to admit that, but it's the grumpy truth.)

I'm sure your note was just fine and there's absolutely nothing wrong with asking. I just wanted to give you another perspective to see why the responses you received were less than positive. Of course, it doesn't excuse the rude words you had to endure, but I'm confident they were written simply out of frustration.

As John mentioned, you might try phoning the photographers instead. ALWAYS ask if it's a convenient time for them before launching into your request. Be able to tell them why you specifically want to be mentored by that particular photographer. If they aren't interested, simply thank them and hang up. I've never had anyone call me up and actually speak to me about second shooting or being mentored. It would make a much better impression. Honestly, half the time I feel the e-mails are just being sent out in bulk, and I've received the same e-mail as forty other photogs.

Anyway, keep your chin up, get creative, and keep trying.

- CJ
 
Thats a fair point actually. It must become annoying after having helped a few begininers. I do understand that i'm asking a lot of them giving up there time but i just wish they could say no and leave it as that. I guess i need to toughen up if i'm gonna ever make it, can't start crying the first time a client doesn't like my pic's :D

Actually i've just had a really lovely email from a lady working in my area and she is more than happy to help. She doesn't have a wedding until december but she's helping me organise a mock up at a local church with a few friends and my wedding dress. Should be great experience.

Thanks again everyone!
 
Maybe as said above try phoning, but when you do, offer your services in the first instance soley as an assistant wondering if they need any 'FREE' help at weekends etc..
I think this option might get you some more responses.
 
It's seems that now photography is easier perhaps than it used to be because you can take a picture, at very little cost. Previously wedding togs have medium format gear and had to get the shot and each shot had to count. The convenience of digital has probably increased the standard of photography even for the novice.
With regards to weddings, take note of all the previous advice. Take pictures of family members and show them your good shots. If they don't like the shot, ask them why, how they think it could be improved. Once people start to see you as a competant photographer they may ask you to take pictures of them, and if a friend or family member is getting marride hope they ask you to take their pictures of the day. If they don't ask you, take pictures anyway, pick out the decent ones and show them after the event. If you develope a style that's different and people like your soon get noticed. Bide your time, work hard and be VERY critical of your pictures. Don't just think that photography will get you out of the boring 9-5 job (thats what all the contestants on X-factor think).
Post some portraits on here and ask for C&C. If someone tells you something negative take note. Remember that all negative comments can be improved, and it's not negative about you, just that photo at that time.
 
Glen said:
Maybe as said above try phoning, but when you do, offer your services in the first instance soley as an assistant wondering if they need any 'FREE' help at weekends etc..
I think this option might get you some more responses.
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Yes, but I'll go a step further. IMO anyone asking a pro to teach them and let them come along on weddings or shoots should not ask for or expect pay. It's very unrealistic. After all, the pro wasn't looking for a second shooter, and teaching someone on the job is not helpful for the pro. It actually creates more work for them. I would never consider any request asking me to teach AND pay a new photographer.
 
Rivit the others have said much of what I would have but I'd like to make a point about your spelling. If you are dyslexic 'you' need to spend the extra time and effort making sure what you send out is correct, wether it be email or in writing.
Make the maximum effort when writing to potential teachers/employers, if you don't then you cannot expect them to make the effort either.

I'm not dyslexic but if I'm writing something important (like this week, I applied for a new job within the company I work for) I will finish it, leave it for an hour or even a day and then go over it again to see how it reads, did I make any mistakes, does it make sense that kind of thing, before sending it off.
 
"Should I just give up?" you asked

Answer this then...

in your local area at least - "Are you as good/better than some of the Pros local to you who would be your competitors?"

If you answer honestly "Yes" - then Hell No - don't give up - if you aren't sure, then Hell Yes give up - get more training, read more, research more then come back guns blazing

Dave's quick insight into any profession...

Most Great at it aren't Great at selling themselves = out of business :thumbsdown:
Most Great at selling themselves aren't Great at their business = in business until everyone realises they are crap :thumbsdown:
If you aren't crap, and are reasonably priced = you'll be okay (y)
If you're good and reasonably priced = you'll quickly become 'famous' locally and all competitors will hate you = success (y)(y)
If you're good and become locally 'famous' you can increase your prices and become wealthy! (y)(y)(y)(y)
 
cjnicolai said:
Yes, but I'll go a step further. IMO anyone asking a pro to teach them and let them come along on weddings or shoots should not ask for or expect pay. It's very unrealistic. After all, the pro wasn't looking for a second shooter, and teaching someone on the job is not helpful for the pro. It actually creates more work for them. I would never consider any request asking me to teach AND pay a new photographer.
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I think you misunderstood, what I'm trying to say is, don't mention anything about wanting to setup yourself etc..just ask if they need help, if they do need it, you would obviously do it for free and then if they decided to 'mentor' 'pass on on few tips' this would also be for free :)
 
try " Photo Start Up" it is a correspondence course teaching you all you need to know including Kit required, advertising, pricing the whole bit. Feed "photostartup". into google it wont cost a lot and you should be ready to take on work within months. Cheers Phil. (philsweddingphotos.com)
 
Phil Wood said:
try " Photo Start Up" it is a correspondence course teaching you all you need to know including Kit required, advertising, pricing the whole bit. Feed "photostartup". into google it wont cost a lot and you should be ready to take on work within months. Cheers Phil. (philsweddingphotos.com)
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I reviewed this course HERE

I'm not really sure why you want to shadow another tog anyway? I never did.

Let's be honest, you're starting out as a wedding photography virgin, with no experience, no portfolio and an unknown level of ability and photographic experience. The people who will approach you initially are likely to be friends and relatives, who know you want to do weddings, and are happy to put their trust in you. More often than not it's because they don't want to pay the rates charged by the local pros. ;) There's nothing at all wrong with that, you have to start somewhere.

Once you get known locally it's surprising how quickly work starts to come in via word of mouth.

If you're not confident in your own ability to cope under pressure and your own basic knowledge of photography, then you'd be completely nuts to even think about doing a wedding. Lots of people, particularly since the digital boom are prepared to dive into wedding photography with an alarming lack of experience and basic knowledge. Don't be one of those. ;)

Taking the basic knowledge as a given, the other hurdle you have to overcome is managing often very large groups of people, posing them, bossing them about, but in a pleasant unoffensive way, to get your job done. You'll start out with no experience at all of how to do any of this. If you're an outgoing person, it helps a lot, if you're more the retiring type, then wedding togging simply may not be for you. Lots of wedding togs have a bad reputation for being grumpy and ill mannered and they simply shouldn't be doing the job as it's fairly obvious the pressure isn't doing them any good, and often marring the happy couple's day, in part at least.

Don't give up. You don't really need to shadow another tog at all. If you find one - all well and good, but if you don't, there are loads of books out there on the subject.

You have to start somewhere - prepare yourself as well as you can, to be as professional as you can. You have to start somewhere, you'll make your mistakes, but you'll learn from them.

Good luck. (y)
 
Phil Wood said:
try " Photo Start Up" it is a correspondence course teaching you all you need to know including Kit required, advertising, pricing the whole bit. Feed "photostartup". into google it wont cost a lot and you should be ready to take on work within months. Cheers Phil. (philsweddingphotos.com)
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This course looks excellent. Just what I need and for £70! That’s brilliant. I'd looked at a few courses already that contained biz skills but they were generally £500 plus which isn't much when you look at what you'd get out of it but I’d rather put that money on a lens.

Just to clarify, I was of course asking to shadow without pay. I would never expect someone to give me there time and teach me there skills at a cost to them. I offered things such as driving us both in my car saving them travel expenses.

The photographer who has offered to help me has asked for some additional tip/training in photoshop in return so it should hopefully benefit us both.

I'm also continuing to offer my service for free to people who can't afford it. I have already done two wedding within my family and I don't expect there will be any more for a good few years but I’ll keep offering and, I have a friends to do next month so should be able to start building up a portfolio soon.
:)
 
Just as a point of interest, not in the field of photography but I have sometimes issued slightly vitriolic responses in order to gauge a response.

A polite and still keen reply defined the person I needed to keep a cool head and react appropriately in difficult situations.
 
You've got a lot of good advice here. One or two other things to bear in mind:

The wedding is probably the couples most important day of their lives to date, so recording it is a responsibility not to be taken lightly. What ever your camera (and any modern DSLR will be up to the job) you need to know it really really well - you must be able to get good pictures when you are rushed and under pressure - and in any weather conditions. One of the big differences between amateur and pro is, if you are an amateur and you go out to take pictures and you have an 'off' day, or the weather turns bad, or things just don't work out - then it doesn't matter too much. If you are a pro then you HAVE to get the picture no matter what.

You need to build your confidence and get as much practice as you can. I don't do weddings but before I started freelancing I used to work for another photographer shooting weddings on Saturdays on B/W film. It is great experience for all sorts of other photography esp press & PR which is what I do mostly. You need to develop your people skills, learn how to handle people firmly but politely to get the shots you need.

Don't give up - keep at it - your idea of helping out someone else is good - don't get taken for a ride either - learn as much as you can - and you'll make it - if you really want to.

Good Luck!
 
Never give up Rivvett, those confident in their work aren't rude or scared of competition.
It is a well known fact that some of the very best photographers in the world are dyxslexic, turning their creativity to non-word based subjects such as photography, even at degree level, so don't be put off.:)
 
Rivit, weddings isn't the be all and end all in photography. There are many people that are professional photographers that perhaps nevergo near a wedding unless they are a guest or getting married themselves. You'll find another avenue to showcase your photography and make a living, then you can stick your fingers up to all those that didn't give you a first glance.
Look at magazines in the shops, what interests do you have, can you take the type of pictures that would appear in magazines. Perhaps a picture agency, there are many options available, look around a bit more. You'll find something and then it will just follow from there.
 
If you have the ability and know the strengths and weaknesses of your equipment then you can certainly produce decent results.

But if you want to get anywhere with it then you will need to do something about that loft of yours.

Michael.
 
if they made that much effort to slag you off then you must be some competition to them!

let your photos do the talking.

i've seen some god awful wedding photography including my mates wedding where the photographer greyed out all the family in the shot, with graves in the background. it basically looked like the happy couple had their shot taken and all their dead relatives and turned up as ghosts!

i often see people asking for help here
http://www.photographers.co.uk/html/photography-jobs.cfm?VacantWanted=V

i guess the insulting guy doesnt have much work if he had time to type a reply that long.
my guess is he is one of those bitter people who has seen his work dwindle since the new fangled digital technology came in.
 
All the photographers you contacted had to start exactly where you are now . They sound like a load of equipment snobs to me probably because they actually lack skill and competance themselves and think that having the most expensive equipment makes up for it. It doesn't.

If one has any talent at all you can do a fantastic job with an old box brownie . No amount of euipment will compensate for a lack of talent.
If I were you i would contact all the local wedding arrangers and ask if they would mind if you took pictures of their weddings for experience. I'm sure most would welcome you especially if they thought they might get some extra, free pictures.
The experience will be invaluable and should give you some increased confidence.
Wish you every success with your venture
 
peanuts said:
They sound like a load of equipment snobs to me probably because they actually lack skill and competance themselves and think that having the most expensive equipment makes up for it. It doesn't.
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Very true - however presumably they've had to earn enough to be able to afford the equipment.
peanuts said:
If one has any talent at all you can do a fantastic job with an old box brownie . No amount of euipment will compensate for a lack of talent.
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True again but having the right equipment helps too.

peanuts said:
If I were you i would contact all the local wedding arrangers and ask if they would mind if you took pictures of their weddings for experience. I'm sure most would welcome you especially if they thought they might get some extra, free pictures.
The experience will be invaluable and should give you some increased confidence.
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True again - but make sure you get the permission of the people in the pictures (in writing) as well.

Wedding photography is as much about people management skills as it is about photographic skills - you need both. Good luck!
 
I can only agree wholeheartedly with what others have said here, as usual the voice of reason prevails on this site and very refreshing it is too!

I see you are based in Kent, if it is any help you are more than welcome to accompany me on any weddings I shoot, I haven't got any more for this year at the moment but I've got about half a dozen for next year in Herts and Essex. This is exactly how I got started, I shadowed a pro/friend and found I really enjoyed the experience even though I always said I'd never do weddings.

Keeping plugging away, have confidence in your abilities and you will get where you want to go.
 
I feel it only fair that I announce the chap who emailed has apologised if the email came across offensive. He has said he simply wanted to point out that its a very tough industry to get into. He wouldn't recommend that anyone starts up as a wedding photography as the industry is now too competitive. I don't feel so bitter about it any more having read all the posts because as someone said I'm sure it was just out of frustration over the amount of emails he must get.

I do intend however to ignore completely what he has advised!! and I'd like to officially declare that "I am not and will not give up" :razz:

I brought my 40D at the weekend and I'm not putting it down until I know it inside out!

I know it will mean a lot of work and giving every spare minute I have to it but I'm determined to do it.

I love all avenues of photography but weddings can be so rewarding and I also have a side line of stationary and wedding favours (personalised rolo's or love hearts if anyones interested). I got married myself last month so I'm very aware of what is required and having been a little disappointed with my own pic's, I know the importance of getting it right!!

Hacker - love to take you up on that offer if it still stands next year when we hit wedding season. Would be truly appreciated.
 
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