Should I take a course or not?

RichardHS

RichardHS

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Richard
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Hello Everyone,

I have just joined the forum and would welcome opinions on improving and developing my photography through education.

As an 18 year old back in the 80s I missed out on the opportunity to go into further education because I chose to start work as an articled clerk and train to become an accountant even though I had no real desire to pursue this as a career.

Fast forward 30 plus years and I now have left accountancy far behind and, although I have a day job in sales and marketing, I have a love of photography and a level of competence that has resulted in me carrying out photographic work for my employer and subsequently been asked to do paid work including images for a big social media campaign for my local council.

I feel as if I know what I'm doing, but I am entirely self taught and have used the occasional YouTube videos, magazines, books and other people's work to help me. Not ever having been guided, taught or critiqued by someone with a superior level of knowledge means I am really not sure how good (or indeed bad) I am and where I can improve. I do appreciate that one expert or tutor may love my work and another hate it.
That's life! If you can't stand the heat...etc...

Against this backdrop I decided some months ago, now I have more time and resources, to try to expand my knowledge through some form of study but I am now rather confused about the direction to go and would welcome your opinions and hear about your experiences.

My main areas of interest are landscapes (for fun), street photography (for fun), food photography (for money) and workplace/event based images (for money). I also need to know much more about image editing. I use Photoshop and again I am self taught and feel as if I am just scratching the surface.

So far I have looked at a couple of U.K. based "diplomas" such as The Photography Institute. Almost all the reviews are good (they are going to be aren't they!) but they cover stuff that doesn't interest me as well as some bits that do. Local colleges offer HNDs etc. but again I'm not 100% convinced. My fear is that I could waste a lot of time and money finding out something is not for me.

Having spent hours reading I am beginning to think that individual workshops in my chosen areas might be the way to broaden my knowledge rather than a one size fits all course, although I would have to choose carefully because so much is directed at beginners. I spent a couple of years at a local camera club where I thought I could soak up other people's knowledge but ended up running half the workshops because no one else wanted to do them.

I live 60 miles north of Glasgow so there are colleges within a reasonable driving distance and being about 40 minutes from Glencoe every man and his dog offer landscape workshops nearby.

Apologies for being so long-winded. Any thoughts and personal experiences on this would be very much appreciated.

Thank you,

Richard
 
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Fully agree with @flook999
Any of the college courses will include things you don't really want to do. There can be value in photographing things you wouldn't normally but the extra time spent on basics which you already know and understand is wasted unless you want to be able to say you have a 'diploma' (can't see any reason why you would). Go for your RPS awards (or similar from the professional bodies involved in the money-making fields you are interested in.
For the other subjects, think about some kind of personal challenge documented on here - I would think that is a great way to get good critique and from many viewpoints.
 
I'm going to suggest the opposite :) (Caveat - I teach photography to adults at our local college!!)

My experience is that adults who do college courses are fully invested in their hobby. They - like you - want to learn more. So you'll be in a group of people who all have different creative vision but are all there for the same reason. Hopefully the tutor will set aside time for discussion on the classes work and will cover creativity on equal - if not more - footing with the technical stuff.

If your area of growth is creativity, then things like workshops will only get you one person's view over a short period of time, often reviewing images and providing feedback as an afterthought at the end - possibly even telling you where to put your tripod to take the best shot. Attending a class will get you many views and opinions. On my advanced class the majority of students are people who are comfortable with the technical side, but are struggling with creativity. They find that working with a large (15+) group of similar individuals over an extended period of time helps them enormously. On two occasions now, the entire group has gone on to form their own "collective" once the course has finished - allowing them to grow in the direction they want without the formulaic approach of camera clubns and photographic societies.

We each have our own skills, and if you're strong technically, or strong with landscape work, you may find that there is someone who is weak in those areas, but strong in others. I've seen (and encourage!) students help each other and work together towards common goals - producing work that's significantly better than when they started. And it's nothing to do with my "teaching", but more down to them working together and thinking about their photography as a group. Every time I get experienced photographers on my courses they all (without exception so far according to my feedback forms!) enjoy it and learn something. The majority make new friends. All are taxed by the project I set.

If you want to improve, you need as many eyes on your work as you can get. One or two people's opinions are no good (well I'm sure they're great, but your work will end up looking exactly like theirs)

The caveat to all this is that courses are run differently - as are workshops. You may find that your mileage may very well vary. It's also my experience, that teaching ability varies significantly. Look for someone who is qualified to teach to reduce the risk of getting someone who is just a (professional) photographer giving you their opinion. Maths is easy - it's right or wrong and if you teach the process, people follow it and get the right answer. Creative subjects are much harder, so find someone who is good at it.

tl;dr - Avoid workshops and get on a course with lots of people over a long period of time. Build friendships, do projects, and push yourself. Above all, keep an open mind.

Oh - and welcome to TP! :)
 
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So are you already doing the fun/money stuff? If so just keep pushing what you do. Courses are not for me, but everyone is different, if your running a business find a mentor (difficult in the same area) business skills are more important than the photography, commercially no one gives a toss about qualifications, if you can drive the camera gear, and have an eye, then just get on with it, and don’t diversify too much, food and events are chalk and cheese in terms of knowledge.
 
Harlequin565 said:
I'm going to suggest the opposite :) (Caveat - I teach photography to adults at our local college!!)

My experience is that adults who do college courses are fully invested in their hobby. They - like you - want to learn more. So you'll be in a group of people who all have different creative vision but are all there for the same reason. Hopefully the tutor will set aside time for discussion on the classes work and will cover creativity on equal - if not more - footing with the technical stuff.

If your area of growth is creativity, then things like workshops will only get you one person's view over a short period of time, often reviewing images and providing feedback as an afterthought at the end - possibly even telling you where to put your tripod to take the best shot. Attending a class will get you many views and opinions. On my advanced class the majority of students are people who are comfortable with the technical side, but are struggling with creativity. They find that working with a large (15+) group of similar individuals over an extended period of time helps them enormously. On two occasions now, the entire group has gone on to form their own "collective" once the course has finished - allowing them to grow in the direction they want without the formulaic approach of camera clubns and photographic societies.

We each have our own skills, and if you're strong technically, or strong with landscape work, you may find that there is someone who is weak in those areas, but strong in others. I've seen (and encourage!) students help each other and work together towards common goals - producing work that's significantly better than when they started. And it's nothing to do with my "teaching", but more down to them working together and thinking about their photography as a group. Every time I get experienced photographers on my courses they all (without exception so far according to my feedback forms!) enjoy it and learn something. The majority make new friends. All are taxed by the project I set.

If you want to improve, you need as many eyes on your work as you can get. One or two people's opinions are no good (well I'm sure they're great, but your work will end up looking exactly like theirs)

The caveat to all this is that courses are run differently - as are workshops. You may find that your mileage may very well vary. It's also my experience, that teaching ability varies significantly. Look for someone who is qualified to teach to reduce the risk of getting someone who is just a (professional) photographer giving you their opinion. Maths is easy - it's right or wrong and if you teach the process, people follow it and get the right answer. Creative subjects are much harder, so find someone who is good at it.

tl;dr - Avoid workshops and get on a course with lots of people over a long period of time. Build friendships, do projects, and push yourself. Above all, keep an open mind.

Oh - and welcome to TP! :)
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What you describe is great for hobby stuff, commercially you just waste time, commercially very targeted workshops can save a lot of time, however they are not needed, if you can self teach/learn.
 
I have taken a workshop when I looked at wedding stuff (I was looking at doing wedding slightly differently). About an hour in I realised it was just going to be smoke and mirrors to people who would never become photographers and were just paying to do courses, I could have run the workshop better without any knowledge of the subject!
 
Harlequin565 said:
I'm going to suggest the opposite :) (Caveat - I teach photography to adults at our local college!!)

My experience is that adults who do college courses are fully invested in their hobby. They - like you - want to learn more. So you'll be in a group of people who all have different creative vision but are all there for the same reason. Hopefully the tutor will set aside time for discussion on the classes work and will cover creativity on equal - if not more - footing with the technical stuff.

If your area of growth is creativity, then things like workshops will only get you one person's view over a short period of time, often reviewing images and providing feedback as an afterthought at the end - possibly even telling you where to put your tripod to take the best shot. Attending a class will get you many views and opinions. On my advanced class the majority of students are people who are comfortable with the technical side, but are struggling with creativity. They find that working with a large (15+) group of similar individuals over an extended period of time helps them enormously. On two occasions now, the entire group has gone on to form their own "collective" once the course has finished - allowing them to grow in the direction they want without the formulaic approach of camera clubns and photographic societies.

We each have our own skills, and if you're strong technically, or strong with landscape work, you may find that there is someone who is weak in those areas, but strong in others. I've seen (and encourage!) students help each other and work together towards common goals - producing work that's significantly better than when they started. And it's nothing to do with my "teaching", but more down to them working together and thinking about their photography as a group. Every time I get experienced photographers on my courses they all (without exception so far according to my feedback forms!) enjoy it and learn something. The majority make new friends. All are taxed by the project I set.

If you want to improve, you need as many eyes on your work as you can get. One or two people's opinions are no good (well I'm sure they're great, but your work will end up looking exactly like theirs)

The caveat to all this is that courses are run differently - as are workshops. You may find that your mileage may very well vary. It's also my experience, that teaching ability varies significantly. Look for someone who is qualified to teach to reduce the risk of getting someone who is just a (professional) photographer giving you their opinion. Maths is easy - it's right or wrong and if you teach the process, people follow it and get the right answer. Creative subjects are much harder, so find someone who is good at it.

tl;dr - Avoid workshops and get on a course with lots of people over a long period of time. Build friendships, do projects, and push yourself. Above all, keep an open mind.

Oh - and welcome to TP! :)
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great post and very valid alternative viewpoint.

From a personal perspective, I did a number of C&G courses many moons back, in the days of film, and enjoyed them all, but I didn't learn a great deal in any other than the darkroom based ones.

The value of collective feedback face to face rather than over t'internet shouldn't be under estimated.

Can I ask where you teach Ian?
 
Studio488commercial said:
What you describe is great for hobby stuff, commercially you just waste time, commercially very targeted workshops can save a lot of time, however they are not needed, if you can self teach/learn.
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Ah, I missed the bit where the OP said this was for commercial gain. In that case, I'd recommend a business, sales & marketing course.
 
It is not clear to me "what it is you need to learn about Photography"
Is it the technical side? where there may be gaps in your basic knowledge.
Is it just specialist knowledge? such as might be imparted by an experienced mentor in that field.
Or is it the business side... how to make money out of what you can already do?

College/ university full time courses can give a good basic grounding in all these things, and will be more "Rounded" than selective short courses.
Specialist Short courses tend to make the assumption that you already have a wide knowledge/ experience, of the technical side of photography.
Mentoring fulfills the same niche that an apprenticeship did in the past. and tends to mirror the knowledge (and gaps in it) of your mentor.

Day long or weekend courses can be a waste of time, especially if there are a number of people on it all, vying for the organisers/ teachers time. however they can give a glimpse of how that person works. However some are undoubtedly very instructive, while others do little more than introduce you to photogenic spots and let you get on with it, amongst other like minded people.

What should be remembered is that that there is no Un-useful photographic knowledge. Most, if not all, of it can transfer between specialist fields and be very useful.
Almost all knowledge is a building block to something else.

Knowledge is like experience, in that the more you have of it the luckier you get.
 
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I always consider it this way. Take a look at all your great painters , they were self taught and their artwork is worth millions. People who do copies are never heard of let alone their paintins worth hardly anything in comparison

Going on a photographic course means you are only learning what many before have learn't, so no individual style. Being self taught makes one more critical of your efforts which leads to a better end product. How hard is it to see others work? there are posters everwhere , on buses- billboards- magazines etc. All you have to do is actually work out how the photo was taken not so much the content.
The old addage is if you like it then it is good, if others like it then it is excellent
 
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realspeed said:
I always consider it this way. Take a look at all your great painters , they were self taught and their artwork is worth millions. People who do copies are never heard of let alone their paintins worth hardly anything in comparison.
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Conversely all those musicians who were "self taught" have cited other musicians as influencers. Same for great photographers. Same for writers.

realspeed said:
Going on a photographic course means you are only learning what many before have learn't
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This is how education works and is significantly quicker than "figure it out randomly". It's not a bad thing. Remove the word "only" from the sentence above and it's a positive statement. (IMO)

I'd invite you to read this article which explains it better than I probably just did.
http://www.fotocommunity.com/info/Helsinki_Bus_Station_Theory
 
realspeed said:
Take a look at all your great painters , they were self taught...
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Apart from those in the distant past who were apprenticed to masters, and those in the recent past who went to art schools. :)
 
Everyone who teaches needs to have excellent communication skills, but also needs to have an in-depth technical knowledge of their subject. I'm sure that there must be many FE and HE courses that are excellent, but photography is viewed as an arts subject that needs to be taught by arts tutors, who often lack any real understanding of the technical issues and who have zero real-world experience of professional photography, so you'd need to choose your provider very carefully.

And workshops can be far from perfect too. Generally, the photographers who are really good at what they do are far too busy to teach others and a lot of the courses seem to be run by people who are doing it because they aren't good enough to hack it as photographers, so again you need to choose carefully.

In my experience, once of the best ways of learning is to assist other photographers. Good photographers won't worry about possible future competition from you and will benefit from free labour. But it will take time, because you'll need to work with a number of photographers in order to learn anything really useful.

And there are many things that can only be learned through practice, trial and error, that's how most people learn today and it works well, as long as there's also some help from other people who have specialised knowledge.
 
RichardHS said:
I have just joined the forum and would welcome opinions on improving and developing my photography through education.
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The big advantage of a formal course at a college, rather than you selecting individual courses/workshops that you feel are relevant, is that you will be taught about things "you" maybe think aren't relevant but are (or could be).

But you do need to choose the college course carefully, read the curriculum, check out the CVs of the tutors, you may well find that some are running a successful business along with their teaching. Also, check what external tutors they bring in to help with the teaching. Our students often ended up getting work experience with our external tutors, and some ended up as full-time employees with them after graduation.

It's also worthwhile speaking to one of the tutors, certainly for Masters students (not for a photography course, but one on ecological impact assessment) I would always welcome a pre-enrolment discussion to make sure the course would meet the student's needs. I encouraged only a small proportion to go on to take the course, as most were looking for something we weren't offering. We emphasised the professional/business side of impact assessment and most potential students wanted to learn about doing ecological surveys.

Of more direct relevance to your question, at my University, there was a strong emphasis amongst the arts subjects of earning a living along with expressing your art, together with developing real professional experience, for example, the lights and sound for one the Glastonbury stages is designed, built and managed by our students (along with help from the teaching staff).

I say "our" but in fact, I'm now retired so it isn't "our" anymore.

I think, if you can find a "good" formal college course, this will give you a solid foundation that can't really be replicated by workshops and short courses.
 
Thank you all for such a warm welcome and responding to my questions.
You have all given me a lot to think about.
I will reread the replies carefully and let you know what I do next.
Cheers
Richard
 
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