Sigma warning

I wouldnt worry too much about statements like that from any Brand.
Grey imports have been with us for years and as long as the product warranty is international, the brand is obliged to honour it.

An extension of one year for the UK only market wouldn't be enough to prevent me buying a grey import at an advantageous price. A small risk in my opinion.
talbot
 
I wonder if that statement came from SIgma or Sigma (UK) who, presumably, are seeing their sales figures affected by people buying grey imports. I can't imagine Sigma are too worried as it's just another sale from them, irrespective of the actual market.

In all honesty it sounds like scaremongering.
 
Flash In The Pan said:
It's not a threat, it's a statement of the law....
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+1

As far as I can remember it's simply a statement of their obligations under the Money Laundering Regs, but it's been a while since I had my MLR training so I might be wrong. Something in connection with financially benefitting from a criminal act - in this case the false declaration and non-payment of duty and/or VAT (even if the customs certificate is falsely completed by the seller, you have a duty to correct it and make the appropriate payments when you receive the goods). In the even that you could not demonstrate that applicable duty and VAT had been paid on an imported lens, Sigma would have a duty to inform HMRC when they became aware or suspected this - in this case when you make a warranty claim.
 
talbot said:
Grey imports have been with us for years and as long as the product warranty is international, the brand is obliged to honour it.
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No they're not.

Sigma specifically state:

Sigma Imaging (UK) Ltd does not condone the
avoidance of the payment of VAT and import
duty.Any claims on our 12 month International
Warranty from the owners of products not
imported into the UK by Sigma Imaging (UK) Ltd
must therefore be accompanied by proof of
payment of import duty & VAT.
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i purchased a sigma 50 1.4 from an amazon marketplace seller last year and when i tried to register for the extended warranty i was told that the lens was a grey import.

i was pretty miffed at the time because i didn't know it was grey and there was no indication it was so on the amazon page or on the seller's profile.

i did end up returning it. but my point, is that as long as you know it's grey, then i don't think it's an issue. sometimes the savings are worth the extra hassle of sending it back to japan or even paying the standard service tarif. we all have to make the decision in the end.
 
Interesting stuff... As others have commented I've no objection to buying grey, as long as it's made clear. A few years ago (when the yen was particularly weak) I imported a guitar from Japan, even after taxes, duty, VAT etc I was still saving nearly £300 over the UK price of £650. Any such bargains in the camera world, past or present?

Am I right in thinking that buying grey where the goods are sold from within the UK is fine, as the duty etc should have already been paid?
 
ronnus said:
Am I right in thinking that buying grey where the goods are sold from within the UK is fine, as the duty etc should have already been paid?
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If you buy a "Smith brand" item in the UK then you'll usually find that it's been sold via Smith UK Ltd as the Uk distributer (sometimes Smith Europe Ltd/AG/etc). The local distributer has responsibility for warranty claims and claims handling within their territory.

Now if your item was sold in Japan via Smith Japan, then Smith UK has not been involved in the purchase contract at any stage and is under no obligation to meet the terms of the local warranty. You the fall back to the international warranty, which will probably mean you arranging shipping to and from the designated international repair centre. There may well be only one such international repair centre in the UK, or possibly even in Europe.

If it's subsequently re-sold within the UK the situation does not change. A very quick check of the receipt and serial number is going to flag up that it's not covered by a local warranty.


I worked for a Sony Centre several years ago. We used to get a lot of personal imports come in for warranty repair that had been bought in Malaysia. It happened so often we had the address of the international repairs centre in Glasgow printed out so they could arrange to send it down.
 
As always, its got more to do with the UK business of a foreign company balancing their books more than anything else.

They will have budget for servicing the items that they have bought from Japan and sold into the UK market. They don't have funding for servicing non-UK items.

Good old wooden dollars and intra-division accountancy backed up with UK consumer law - although thats not always the case as one particular person well known on this forum always seems to get his parallel imported gear serviced by UK service centres on the basis that the item was sold in the UK and has a UK recipt. Clearly Sigma/Canon/whoever can tell by the serial numbers and even indeed by the name on the recipt, but it seems to be a workable situation, so its not always black and white!
 
Sigma UK has been using that scare-mongering tactic for years and it just leaves a bad taste.

I understand their position absolutely but it happens in all industries and it's certainly not going away - just the opposite. And the fundamental 'problem' lies with their own international pricing structure, and their own supply networks. They know full well who's selling stuff cheaply overseas and they know equally well who's dodging the VAT.

So get their prices in line and stop supplying dodgy dealers. The solution is in their own hands and other brands have found a way of making it work without pi55ing everybody off along the way. International price parity is always difficult, but it can be done. It's just got to be done at source and manufacturers have got to look at their own short-term greed and hypocrisy in all this.

On the warranty front, it is unfair to expect the UK arm to do warranty work free of charge on goods sourced overseas, but again that's not the consumer's problem - the UK company should be refunded by the Sigma parent company, whose products it is that are failing.

On the wider issue of non payment of tax/duty/VAT, it is a mystery to me why the government and HM customs don't take much stronger action on this. They are losing out of huge amounts of revenue, and putting legitimate UK dealers and importers out of business. As an example, when I get I nice new Benro tripod from China with 'gift' marked on it, if my postman knows it's nothing of the sort, how come nobody else can spot it? I've bought stuff from DC's Store on ebay several times, as have many others on here, and as far as I know nobody has paid a bean extra. That's just bonkers. I would be happy to pay, but I'm not going out of my way to do so.

Sorry, rant over :D
 
HoppyUK said:
On the wider issue of non payment of tax/duty/VAT, it is a mystery to me why the government and HM customs don't take much stronger action on this. They are losing out of huge amounts of revenue, and putting legitimate UK dealers and importers out of business. As an example, when I get I nice new Benro tripod from China with 'gift' marked on it, if my postman knows it's nothing of the sort, how come nobody else can spot it? I've bought stuff from DC's Store on ebay several times, as have many others on here, and as far as I know nobody has paid a bean extra. That's just bonkers. I would be happy to pay, but I'm not going out of my way to do so.
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i seem to remember reading that customs are cracking down on imports marked as "gift". from what ive heard theyre now slapping the maximum tax they can on stuff that is attempted at sneeking through rather than working it out on % value.
 
Mind you, Sigma's three-year warranty is for manufacturing-related failures only. I can't see anything realistic that could arise between the end of year one and the start of year three.
 
It's not for nothing that Britain is known as Treasure Island by multinationals.
 
Not read all this thread so apologies if this has already been stated.

Warranty is with the organisation you made the contract with so if you bought a grey import from Amazon then it is Amazon's responsibility to repair/replace for the first 12 month. We can then go onto EU law (the only law that is useful) whereby an item is supposed to last a 'reasonable' time and that minimum in actually 2 years.

Not sure whether post 12 month you have to deal with the manufacturer
 
HoppyUK said:
the fundamental 'problem' lies with their own international pricing structure, and their own supply networks. They know full well who's selling stuff cheaply overseas and they know equally well who's dodging the VAT.

So get their prices in line and stop supplying dodgy dealers. The solution is in their own hands and other brands have found a way of making it work without pi55ing everybody off along the way. International price parity is always difficult, but it can be done. It's just got to be done at source and manufacturers have got to look at their own short-term greed and hypocrisy in all this.

On the warranty front, it is unfair to expect the UK arm to do warranty work free of charge on goods sourced overseas, but again that's not the consumer's problem - the UK company should be refunded by the Sigma parent company, whose products it is that are failing.
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The difficulty with this argument is that the costs of operating in the UK may be considerably different to those encountered in, say, Hong Kong.

I'd be most surprised if the rates of pay of repair technicians in the UK is at parity with those in Hong Kong. Then there's the matter of UK taxes on their wages, National Insurance, etc. The lens has been sold to Hong Kong distribution at a price that takes into account the costs of supporting that item in that locality, including repairs where necessary. Labour is going to form a very significant proportion of the costs of a warranty repair.

They could, perhaps, ship the lenses off to Asia for repairs instead of Welwyn Garden City, but then there's the transport costs and customers might not appreciate the extra time involved.

Other manufacturers in other fields might be able to get away with a flatter international pricing scheme - I dunno. If you're a clothing company then there's little in the way of UK support required, you just give the customer a replacement or their money back.
 
So do places like One Stop Digital and Digital Rev falsely mark their packages as gifts or as a lesser value? I must say I've ordered a few things from One Stop Digital and never checked that. Won't be using them again if that's the case.
 
grum said:
So do places like One Stop Digital and Digital Rev falsely mark their packages as gifts or as a lesser value? I must say I've ordered a few things from One Stop Digital and never checked that. Won't be using them again if that's the case.
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I wouldn't worry too much - they have already found ways around it! The independent (I hope) reviews seem to say there are no problems. All I'll say is go figure (I wouldn't want ^them^ figuring out what)...
 
Sigma provide a list of authorised dealers on their web site so it might be worth checking that before purchase if you are worried about grey imports.

I didn't when I bought my 70-200 from Amazon. They arn't on their list but Sigma honoured the extended warranty so it looks as if you buy from Amazon direct (rather than a marketplace seller) you get "uk stock".

But TBH I wouldn't worry too much about grey imports. If you buy from a reputable seller (such as Digital Rev) any issues will raise themselves in the first 12 months in all likelihood and they will deal with it on their own 12 month warranty.
 
skiking said:
Warranty is with the organisation you made the contract with so if you bought a grey import from Amazon then it is Amazon's responsibility to repair/replace for the first 12 month. We can then go onto EU law (the only law that is useful) whereby an item is supposed to last a 'reasonable' time and that minimum in actually 2 years.
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No. Taking all the points in order...

  • The warranty is with the manufacturer. Yes, you do have rights under UK (not EU) law, but they have nothing to do with the warranty. Warranties are at the manufacturer's discretion and are separate from your legal rights.
  • Amazon don't sell grey market imports. Amazon Marketplace dealers will - but they aren't amazon.
  • Many grey importers aren't covered by UK law.
  • There is no 'EU law'. There is UK law (The Sale of Goods Act) that covers these matters.
  • The EU directive (not law) does not say that an item is supposed to last at least two years. It gives the consumer two years after purchase during which they can complain about a fault. Interestingly, the UK law gives the consumer 6 years (5 years in Scotland).
 
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Is this just a case of a large manufacturer, (who is able to take advantage of the free market theory and cheap labour) getting a bit miffed when the customer is able to purchase goods cheaper abroad?
 
hollis_f said:
No. Taking all the points in order...

  • The warranty is with the manufacturer. Yes, you do have rights under UK (not EU) law, but they have nothing to do with the warranty. Warranties are at the manufacturer's discretion and are separate from your legal rights.
  • Amazon don't sell grey market imports. Amazon Marketplace dealers will - but they aren't amazon.
  • Many grey importers aren't covered by UK law.
  • There is no 'EU law'. There is UK law (The Sale of Goods Act) that covers these matters.
  • The EU directive (not law) does not say that an item is supposed to last at least two years. It gives the consumer two years after purchase during which they can complain about a fault. Interestingly, the UK law gives the consumer 6 years (5 years in Scotland).
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I may have been a little glib with some of the wording 'law'/'directive' etc but if you listen to some of the 'watch dog' type of organisations including Martin Lewis they interpret the EU Directive as a consumer right including in the UK. Never put it to the test nor am I a lawyer.
One other thing, when you purchase an item, your contract is with the seller not the manufacturer so its the seller who has the obligation.
 
Hollis_f is spot on.

EU Directives are NOT law. They are requirements that member states enact their own local laws (in our case, Sale of Goods Act, amongst others).

Note that if a state fails to enact law upon a directive, your recourse in the European Courts is against the government for failing to enact, not against the manufacturer.
 
Actually, being pedantic, Hollis was wrong in one aspect;
There is no UK law either. There is the law of England & Wales and the law of Scotland. Usually similar, but different in some areas (for instance, law related to land and buildings and the structure of the criminal courts).
 
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