So much hatred for new wedding photographers??

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Rowee

Rowee

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I have been around on this forum for a bit and have noticed not infrequent comments about people "trying to photgraph" weddings. Lots of comments like -
why agree to shoot a wedding when you have no idea how much work is involved?

I started out as a Landscape photographer - actually, no i didnt, i was just a guy who liked taking good photos. I developed into Landscape photgraphy and have recently been dragging myself into people/portrait shots as much as i can.

I have my 3rd wedding to shoot in March, its a friend of a friend, as were the first 2. I am far from Professional, and only been making any money from photography for about 6 months.

On 2 of the 3 occasions, i was asked to shoot the wedding as the couple could not afford a professional. I did charge them (obviously), not much in comparison to a pro, but im not a pro, they new i wasnt a pro, and accepted the compromise.

So what is the big deal? I may be about to open a right can of worms, but i don't understand, surely you have to start somewhere, you can hardly practice wedding shots in a studio?

*Has pulled the pin out of the grenade, and is now running for cover*
 
I don't think it's much to do with fear of competition. From what I have read, my opinion is that by doing a wedding cheaper than a full time professional photographer many of them see it as devaluing their trade. Which I can understand to a point.

However, how are you expected to "grow" into that role when the chances of working with a professional photography company are very low ? Similar to portrait work really. You have to go out there and get some work, maybe by picking up the business the full timers wouldn't want.

I do feel that as much as I like to chat with the pro's on this forum, some are very hostile towards new guys on the scene trying to make their way into the industry.

Not that I want to pinch their work, I don't need the stress :LOL:

Steve
 
because wedding photographers are stereotypically a bunch of arrogant MoFu's lol

The problem with these discussions is they denigrate in to a free for all abuse throwing match rather than a civilised chat.


I agree with Jelster on the devaluing their trade but we have a free comercial market where people can charge what they want


Rowee said:
I have been around on this forum for a bit and have noticed not infrequent comments about people "trying to photgraph" weddings. Lots of comments like -
why agree to shoot a wedding when you have no idea how much work is involved?

I started out as a Landscape photographer - actually, no i didnt, i was just a guy who liked taking good photos. I developed into Landscape photgraphy and have recently been dragging myself into people/portrait shots as much as i can.

I have my 3rd wedding to shoot in March, its a friend of a friend, as were the first 2. I am far from Professional, and only been making any money from photography for about 6 months.

On 2 of the 3 occasions, i was asked to shoot the wedding as the couple could not afford a professional. I did charge them (obviously), not much in comparison to a pro, but im not a pro, they new i wasnt a pro, and accepted the compromise.

So what is the big deal? I may be about to open a right can of worms, but i don't understand, surely you have to start somewhere, you can hardly practice wedding shots in a studio?

*Has pulled the pin out of the grenade, and is now running for cover*
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I see where you're coming from Rowee and have noticed this too.

From where I'm sitting there are different sides to the arguement:

"Professional" wedding photographers are expensive (to most people) to hire. However most people don't understand the cost of being a wedding photographer i.e equipment and backup, insurance, PP software etc. Then of course you've got the experience that money can't buy and the skills which potentially have taken years to develop (pardon the pun).

Then people like you (and me to some extent) that enjoy photography as a hobby, that then gets a little more involved and there are the odd paid jobs, people see your photos, like what they see and you get asked to do friends of friends weddings and then you get people telling you that you should become a wedding photographer. They just don't realise the level of kit you need or the stress/responsiblility that goes with it.

My final group (as I see it) are those that get a 1000D with a kit lens for Xmas, play with it for a few months and get told they have an eye for a picture and suddenly become wedding photographers by June :LOL:

Now if I was a "pro", the latter group would get under my skin as they could (with good advertising, flashy websites and bargain basement prices) take work away from them and probably more seriously, produce a completely duff set of photos and the wedding party would then brand "pro" photographers as con-artists.

As I said before, a lot of people just don't understand what's actually needed to be a fully-fledged wedding photographer.

If someone asks me to photograph their wedding, I'll initially say "sorry, I don't do weddings" and explain that I don't have enough or the right kit, it's not really my "thing" as wedding photography is very specialised and I'd hate to ruin their day with bad pictures as I'm also still learning how to take decent shots.

If they still insist I will set out conditions about what I will/won't/can't do and then go from there.

People have to start somewhere, one person could pick up a camera and be a natural, another could practice for years and neve do any better than "happy snaps".

Being really honest I don't aspire to be a wedding photographer, in fact becoming a full-time photographer. The reason being is that I love photography as a hobby. I choose how and when I want to do.

If I had to take pictures to pay the mortgage and put food on the table, would I enjoy it as much? Could the pressure ruin a hobby for me?

On the flipside they say you should always try an work for a living in a field you enjoy..........

Catch 22 really :LOL:
 
Rowee said:
I have been around on this forum for a bit and have noticed not infrequent comments about people "trying to photgraph" weddings. Lots of comments like -
why agree to shoot a wedding when you have no idea how much work is involved?

I started out as a Landscape photographer - actually, no i didnt, i was just a guy who liked taking good photos. I developed into Landscape photgraphy and have recently been dragging myself into people/portrait shots as much as i can.

I have my 3rd wedding to shoot in March, its a friend of a friend, as were the first 2. I am far from Professional, and only been making any money from photography for about 6 months.

On 2 of the 3 occasions, i was asked to shoot the wedding as the couple could not afford a professional. I did charge them (obviously), not much in comparison to a pro, but im not a pro, they new i wasnt a pro, and accepted the compromise.

So what is the big deal? I may be about to open a right can of worms, but i don't understand, surely you have to start somewhere, you can hardly practice wedding shots in a studio?

*Has pulled the pin out of the grenade, and is now running for cover*
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Do a search on the forum - this has come up a great many times - and often getting quite heated. Are you just starting another thread on the subject to stir it again? Can't think of any other reason - the answers are already here.

Original Poster said:
Much the same as when someone asks about what first DSLR to get the answer "go and hold some" is repeated about 300 times!
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Simply because that is the best advice!
 
Russ77 said:
Being really honest I don't aspire to be a wedding photographer, in fact becoming a full-time photographer. The reason being is that I love photography as a hobby. I choose how and when I want to do.

If I had to take pictures to pay the mortgage and put food on the table, would I enjoy it as much? Could the pressure ruin a hobby for me?
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Cant argue with that. Thats pretty much exactly my take on it at the moment as well.

Having said that, my current logic also tells me (as do my friends/family) that I should be making money at photography. Now i'm far from the most assertive person in the world, and I do tend to have minimal faith in my own abilities, but you reach a point where you can only be told this SO many times before you start to wonder if they might actually be right.

Now Satan will be skiing to work before I'd ditch my current job, but thats not to say I cant actually make use of my spare time (of which there is a lot) to enjoy my hobby, and maybe make enough to cover the cost of the big investment im about to make in kit.

Of course, when I do that I will invariably become the focus of the aforementioned wrath because im not a 'pro'.

Ho hum.
 
It's nothing to do with competition. What the pros are mostly worried about is the damage that an inexperienced amateur can do if they mess up sombodies special day.
You don't get a second chance at a wedding, the photographer is working under pressure in often difficult lighting, with a lot of mostly total strangers, sometimes unruly and drunk.
It's not a place to "learn as you go" you really need to know your gear inside out, and have proper back-up. You can't just stop a wedding while the photographer pops off to Jessops for a new flash.
The way to learn is work as a second photographer, that way any mistakes are usually covered.
If an amateur messes up a wedding (and yes it does happen) you have to remember the local press will say "Cardiff photographer ruins wedding" or similar, that tends to reflect on all the photographers in the area not only the offending tog.
 
Clearly not trying to stir things up AWP, nor am i looking for an argument, merely trying to understand the logic behind it, as this doesnt seem to be an issue for other forms of photography, landscapes, sports, entertainment etc where newbies could be getting involved left right and center. Or maybe it is an issue, and it's just not voiced as much. :shrug:

If someone told me they just got a camera and were getting into landscape photography to start selling pictures, as far as i'm concerned - great, go for it, let me know if you need any help/advice, or if you have any for me. I would never jump on the defensive and suggest they were treadding on my toes.
 
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swanseamale47 said:
It's nothing to do with competition. What the pros are mostly worried about is the damage that an inexperienced amateur can do if they mess up sombodies special day.
You don't get a second chance at a wedding, the photographer is working under pressure in often difficult lighting, with a lot of mostly total strangers, sometimes unruly and drunk.
It's not a place to "learn as you go" you really need to know your gear inside out, and have proper back-up. You can't just stop a wedding while the photographer pops off to Jessops for a new flash.
The way to learn is work as a second photographer, that way any mistakes are usually covered.
If an amateur messes up a wedding (and yes it does happen) you have to remember the local press will say "Cardiff photographer ruins wedding" or similar, that tends to reflect on all the photographers in the area not only the offending tog.
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Very valid point Wayne, i'd not thought of it in that way. However - asking to be a second photographer at a wedding seems to be a bit like asking my original question. I have asked a couple of locals, and not had the nicest of responses, if i got a response at all.
It was like it was too much hassle and not worth their while, so where do you go?
 
there is no logic behind it Rowee - there is nothing wrong with picking up a camera, being food with it and wanting to shoot weddings or portraits etc. The main thing the so called pros forget is that unless you have decent pics you'll not actually make any money. If someone with a 100D, kit lens and a 430ex flash wants to shoot a wedding then go for it. if you can take a good people pics you can do a wedding.

Yes people should use the search but not all the answers come up in searches





Rowee said:
Clearly not trying to stir things up AWP, nor am i looking for an argument, merely trying to understand the logic behind it, as this doesnt seem to be an issue for other forms of photography, landscapes, sports, entertainment etc where newbies could be getting involved left right and center. Or maybe it is an issue, and it's just not voiced as much. :shrug:

If someone told me they just got a camera and were getting into landscape photography to start selling pictures, as far as i'm concerned - great, go for it, let me know if you need any help/advice, or if you have any for me. I would never jump on the defensive and suggest they were treadding on my toes.
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I don't think there's much more contention than in any other field actually - but since I joined here I've seen a lot more people coming and asking about photographing weddings than I have portraits or commercial work - people see the pricetags and presume it's high profit and don't realise the work involved.

Plus if somebody screws up a portait shoot, it's a few bad pictures. Screw up a wedding and it's the memories of somebody's day gone.

That said, some (by no means all!) wedding photographers seem to see that person who hired a £200 "pro" as undercutting them when in actual fact those people would've never spent £1000+ on photography anyway as most of the time they simply can't afford it.
 
Yes, the only issue is professionalism.

I went from doing 2 as a second to a primary, that was very fast, probably a lot faster than many pro's would advise. I wouldn't take a wedding on if I didn't think I could do it professionally and give the B&G a quality service.

However, I think any hostility comes from people that come in with no experience or knowledge and say "I want to shoot a wedding".
 
I have a different take on this. Most wedding photographers on this forum and elsewhere are helpful and approachable.

However if someone approaches in such a way as its clear that they have no idea and unrealistic expectations or a bad attitude, then

1) Why should anyone help? No one owes you a living

2) Why would they let you anywhere near their livelihood?
 
POAH said:
there is no logic behind it Rowee - there is nothing wrong with picking up a camera, being food with it and wanting to shoot weddings or portraits etc. The main thing the so called pros forget is that unless you have decent pics you'll not actually make any money. If someone with a 100D, kit lens and a 430ex flash wants to shoot a wedding then go for it. if you can take a good people pics you can do a wedding.

Yes people should use the search but not all the answers come up in searches
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Okay, who are you and what have you done with the real POAH? :LOL:
 
There are two sets of people...
The photographed and the Photographers.
There are no "rights" to the first group, It is a free for all. They are just customers with "needs".

Much the same applies to the "photographers". They have needs too... money. and for this they offer a product "photographs"

All this is confused by "reputation, Style, service. special offers, Qualifications, professional bodies, Sales technique, recommendations"

How the right couple pair up with the right Photographer, is a matter of pure chance, and good fortune.

I suspect a majority of Couples never use a Professional Photographer.
Those that do, Provide a good living for a few Photographers, and a very poor one for many more.

In this country Photography is unregulated ... And the phrase "Professional Photographer " means anything you want it to... It gives no Rights to the Photographer and no guarantee of any thing to a "wedding Couple"

If an amateur wishes to have a go... he has every right... and he will probably do just as well as many "professionals"
 
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As a "newbie" wedding photographer (first one in 2 weeks time) I have to say I've had nothing but support from other photographers (on other forums and in real life, I'm not sure I've started a thread about it here). Probably because they see I know my camera inside out, have the necessary gear and backups, have cut my teeth shooting children and families (though admittedly not for a very long time) and am charging a decent amount.

I haven't been a second shooter, I've contacted several photographers and will keep contacting them, but haven't had any luck getting a gig yet. So yes, I'm inexperienced when it comes to weddings (though I know a lot about them), but by no means inexperienced with my camera.

So when professionals have a go at people on here, they're usually telling it straight - if the person doesn't have backup gear, or the lenses for low-light situations, then that's a fact. If beginners are well prepared and know what they're facing, then (in my experience) established photographers will be more than supportive.
 
Then you don't reply and open yourself up to abuse.

boyfalldown said:
However if someone approaches in such a way as its clear that they have no idea and unrealistic expectations or a bad attitude, then

1) Why should anyone help? No one owes you a living

2) Why would they let you anywhere near their livelihood?
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Ironically, just this morning I was shown a set of wedding pictures this morning that were shot last November. The photographer is a member of the SWPP, and has a very impressive website. The family had paid well over £1000 for their services.

To say I was appalled at what I actually saw would be an understatement. Countless blurred and ill-composed shots, a lot of which were obviously hand held at 1/6 sec. They were all shot with a D700 (i know nothing about Nikon, but I do know thats a pretty serious bit of kit supposedly).

It just reinforced the logic that an expensive camera does not a photographer make. I guess it also shows that the 'pro's' are just as capable of making a complete lash up of it as 'us amateurs'.
 
POAH said:
well if someone asks for help and you give them a snotty unprofessional reply then you'll more than likely get abuse.
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in what way was my reply snotty - as all I said was if you ask the majority of people in a snotty way then you'll get a short reply, but approach them in a good way and you'll get a good reply........simples.

Not sure how thats snotty or unprofessional either? :shrug: Maybe you can explain
 
POAH said:
well if someone asks for help and you give them a snotty unprofessional reply then you'll more than likely get abuse.
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As opposed to the class of your opening line:

'because wedding photographers are stereotypically a bunch of arrogant MoFu's lol '

:shrug:
 
If a so called photographer screws up a wedding...then thats their problem. I don't know why some unrelated people get so bothered about it. They'll soon be out the game.

If someone wants to know what lenses and camera to buy for a wedding, either tell them or don't. Don't fret over it, the thread soon passes by.

Older threads have indicated that pros typically wont let someone second shoot because its not worth the hassle - I couldn't agree more. Yet on the same issue they advise not to shoot without experience or for free.

As for weddings being 'once in a lifetime'. These days...clever marketing:naughty:
 
well my blind chum, I'm neither professional nor was I responding to someone asking for advice therefore I invite you to remove your head from your ass :wave:

Radiohead said:
As opposed to the class of your opening line:

'because wedding photographers are stereotypically a bunch of arrogant MoFu's lol '

:shrug:
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POAH said:
well my blind chum, I'm neither professional nor was I responding to someone asking for advice therefore I invite you to remove your head from your ass :wave:
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So just so we're straight on this.

You're accusing others of dishing out abuse?

Have I got that right?
 
pretty much in some cases yes

p.s I'm not saying I don't do it just in case you are going down that route, I pointing out with wedding photography its more often than not. you don't see it in other genres. hence my original comment on this thread ;)



Radiohead said:
So just so we're straight on this.

You're accusing others of dishing out abuse?

Have I got that right?
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Rowee said:
I have been around on this forum for a bit and have noticed not infrequent comments about people "trying to photgraph" weddings. Lots of comments like -
why agree to shoot a wedding when you have no idea how much work is involved?

I started out as a Landscape photographer - actually, no i didnt, i was just a guy who liked taking good photos. I developed into Landscape photgraphy and have recently been dragging myself into people/portrait shots as much as i can.

I have my 3rd wedding to shoot in March, its a friend of a friend, as were the first 2. I am far from Professional, and only been making any money from photography for about 6 months.

On 2 of the 3 occasions, i was asked to shoot the wedding as the couple could not afford a professional. I did charge them (obviously), not much in comparison to a pro, but im not a pro, they new i wasnt a pro, and accepted the compromise.

So what is the big deal? I may be about to open a right can of worms, but i don't understand, surely you have to start somewhere, you can hardly practice wedding shots in a studio?

*Has pulled the pin out of the grenade, and is now running for cover*
Click to expand...

To answer your question. Aside from the potential issues if people cock it up there's no problem. What is bizarre is the 'I've booked a wedding, what lens is best' threads that pop up. Those tend to get the expected responses. You should have at least some idea.

Some people shooting a wedding for free or £200 today will turn out to be excellent and will be charging £1500 in a couple of years. Some will cock it up horribly and never go near one again. The rest might be ok and charge £500-700 and do it as a sideline. You'll only find out by trying, but everyone doing so should go into it with their eyes open.

It's seen as easy money (which it's not on, a number of levels), but to do it well takes time, ability and experience. It's only partially about the photography - there are lots of good, but not brilliant, wedding photographers who are making a very good living because they get on well with people and their clients love them. Equally there are many excellent ones who never succeed because they aren't able to click with different people and do so consistently. That's before you even get into album design, workflow and so on.
 
POAH said:
well my blind chum, I'm neither professional nor was I responding to someone asking for advice therefore I invite you to remove your head from your ass :wave:
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Whilst I remember, to be pedantic if you take payment for your work you are technically a "professional".....
 
For what it is worth, I think that there is a huge difference between somebody asking for advice about shooting a wedding for a friend who cant afford a 'lavish wedding' with all the trimmings and a pro Tog, and somebody who wants advice so that they can 'jump on the bandwaggon' so to speak. I can fully understand how the latter would be like red rag to a bull with the seasoned wedding togs and I can appreciate that they can be quite blunt with replies, in fairness though they have invested a lot of time, money and effort in honing their skills and have every right to be blunt IMO.

Personally, would I shoot somebodies wedding? Probably not, I am an amateur photographer who enjoys his hobby. However, if a close friend asked me to take 'better than average' photos for them on their wedding day or they would have to do without, then I would more than likely say yes and offer the service as a gift.
 
johnb said:
Here we go again!

Good luck Rowee with your endeavours
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Thanks John

I knew this maybe be a bit of a controversial thread, didn't realise there was quite so much emotion on the subject. I shall be sure to fully research existing threads on topics in future :)

+1 for POAH on his
'Im pointing out with wedding photography its more often than not. you don't see it in other genres'

That is where my original question lies
 
Flash In The Pan said:
Whilst I remember, to be pedantic if you take payment for your work you are technically a "professional".....
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think that only counts if you are a whore :LOL: have to earn significant amount of your income from photography to call yourself professional and be allowed to join the NUJ. TBH I can't remember the last time I made money from photography
 
swanseamale47 said:
If an amateur messes up a wedding (and yes it does happen) you have to remember the local press will say "Cardiff photographer ruins wedding" or similar, that tends to reflect on all the photographers in the area not only the offending tog.
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Whilst I can see both side of the argument, this could apply to any trade.
 
Rowee said:
Thanks John

I knew this maybe be a bit of a controversial thread, didn't realise there was quite so much emotion on the subject. I shall be sure to fully research existing threads on topics in future :)

+1 for POAH on his
'Im pointing out with wedding photography its more often than not. you don't see it in other genres'

That is where my original question lies
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That's probably because in most other genres you get a second chance or can reshoot if you cock things up.
 
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