So what's all the fuss with Fuji then?

AdamTudor said:
I wonder when canon and nikon will join the game properly? I know they don't want to lose the sales from their dslr ranges but surely with dslr sales dropping and mirrorless rising they can't ignore it forever?
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Canon supposedly want to be the biggest name in mirrorless by 2017, so they are thinking about it. But releasing products like the EOS M don't inspire much faith.
 
AdamTudor said:
I wonder when canon and nikon will join the game properly? I know they don't want to lose the sales from their dslr ranges but surely with dslr sales dropping and mirrorless rising they can't ignore it forever?
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properly? I can only assume you have not used a Nikon V2 or a Canon M then? sure there is not the wealth of mirrorless lenses offered by others but what they are making sure of is a great marriage with their dslr lenses.. which is bringing the 2 systems together..
 
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Canon and Nikon appear to have been cautious and not wanting to dilute their reputation for "proper cameras", i.e. DSLRs. Fuji and the m43 coalition haven't had the same DSLR-based reputation to maintain and have been prepared to educate the market that there are valid alternatives. They've been very good at marketing, and Fuji in particular have been prepared to grow their market share through aggressive discounting and promotions.

Without a heritage full-frame lens mount to support, Fuji and the m43 coalition have had an additional design freedom. Canon and Nikon are free to develop smaller mounts for mirrorless but have to always be thinking about how they can provide a full-compatibility adapter.
 
strumstrum said:
properly? I can only assume you have not used a Nikon V2 or a Canon M then? sure there is not the wealth of mirrorless lenses offered by others but what they are making sure of is a great marriage with their dslr lenses.. which is bringing the 2 systems together..
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I have an old V1 which has a Nikkor 18-200 all but welded to it via the FT-1. Have to admit that I far prefer the dial based controls on the Fujis to the almost entirely menu driven Nikon. Being a lover of wide angles, the 2.7x crop factor can be a PITA too but having a 540mm (EFL) makes for some great zoo close ups!
 
twist said:
Canon supposedly want to be the biggest name in mirrorless by 2017, so they are thinking about it. But releasing products like the EOS M don't inspire much faith.
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Running before they can walk, haven't even caught up yet with the Nikon DSLRs. That is all !
 
no i havent used either of those to be honest but have looked into the eos m, which canon don't sell the latest versions in the US? What I was getting at really is that yeah they have their mirrorless bodies but they seem to me to be more of a token gesture towards that market rather than a proper attempt at competing with the other brands. Can the eos m compete with the ranges from the other brands? It just seems to me they thought they needed a mirrorless model and have just released multiple versions of the same camera, not a decent range to suit more users. Maybe we will just have to see what they have in the works for the next few years as i am sure they will have ideas in progress but I would quite like to see either brand produce something that can compete well with the top of the range mirrorless.
 
I sold my DSLR kit (Canon 5Dmk2 plus L lenses) and bought a Fuji X-M1 and 16-50mm lens to get me started into CSC camera's.
I don't regret the decision as of yet and don't think i will either.
 
AdamTudor said:
no i havent used either of those to be honest but have looked into the eos m, which canon don't sell the latest versions in the US? What I was getting at really is that yeah they have their mirrorless bodies but they seem to me to be more of a token gesture towards that market rather than a proper attempt at competing with the other brands. Can the eos m compete with the ranges from the other brands? It just seems to me they thought they needed a mirrorless model and have just released multiple versions of the same camera, not a decent range to suit more users. Maybe we will just have to see what they have in the works for the next few years as i am sure they will have ideas in progress but I would quite like to see either brand produce something that can compete well with the top of the range mirrorless.
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I have been through a few of the mirrorless options and for me the Fuji and the Canon come out on top for ease of use and the results I get from them. The EOS M is a strange beast as the design looked like it was aimed purely at point and shooters but the price tags was way to high. The current pricing (£199 with kit lens) makes it one of the best value cameras around. That said if Canon are serious about taking on the mirrorless market then they need some more native M lenses - if they can produce some fast primes of the quality and price available for the Fuji then I will be well pleased.
 
strumstrum said:
properly? I can only assume you have not used a Nikon V2 or a Canon M then? sure there is not the wealth of mirrorless lenses offered by others but what they are making sure of is a great marriage with their dslr lenses.. which is bringing the 2 systems together..
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A one inch sensor is never going to set the mirrorless world alight.

As for Canons M, come on its a bit of a joke in the mirrorless world and for good reason, the Sony a6000 is superior in every single way, and you can mount canon lenses on the Sony with an autofocus adaptor.
 
boliston said:
I'm wondering why APS-H never really caught on - it's a good compromise between APS-C and full frame as it's a lot cheaper and means lenses can be smaller while still retaining good DOF.
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Ah, the obsession with shallow DoF.

I take quite a few shallow DoF pictures but even so most of my photographic life has been spent with 35mm/FF and trying to get more DoF. For me the sweet spot for handheld shooting is more towards MFT and APS-C with FF at the edge of what I find acceptable. When shooting FF and smaller apertures to get adequate DoF raising the ISO to maintain shutter speed is one way to cope but the decrease in aperture and increase in ISO nibbles away at any image quality advantage FF may have over a smaller system and then the need for the bulk and weight of FF comes into question.

pingu666 said:
maybe because it falls in between apsc and ff lenses?
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I wonder how many APS-H specific lenses Canon brought out?
 
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for a clever user it would be fine lens wise, as you could pick some ff, some apsc but large circle lenses, for the average customer its less suitable... and theres only been leica m8 and 1dx?
 
Alastair said:
Canon and Nikon appear to have been cautious and not wanting to dilute their reputation for "proper cameras", i.e. DSLRs. Fuji and the m43 coalition haven't had the same DSLR-based reputation to maintain and have been prepared to educate the market that there are valid alternatives. They've been very good at marketing, and Fuji in particular have been prepared to grow their market share through aggressive discounting and promotions.

Without a heritage full-frame lens mount to support, Fuji and the m43 coalition have had an additional design freedom. Canon and Nikon are free to develop smaller mounts for mirrorless but have to always be thinking about how they can provide a full-compatibility adapter.
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I think the real issue with Canon and Nikon is that there mirrorless releases thus far aren't really aiming for the same kind of user Fuji is, rather there going after the very small but interchangeable lens camera market that DSLR's can't touch, doesn't seem to have taken off as well in the west but its big business in Japan and Asia where Canon actually have a decent market share even with such a limited system.

Honestly though for me the real gap in the market that cameras like the X-T1 and the E-M1 exploit is more the lack of smaller high end DSLR's from Canon and Nikon. The recent Canon D760 does go some way to addressing that but generally if you want higher end build and controls you need to go large with the D70/D7200 or higher.

I do have to say though I find the value of a lot of higher end ASPC/43/CX lenses questionable, I can see the attraction in terms of tele range and the cheaper options but the premium for faster primes and zooms just doesn't seem to be worthwhile to me when you look at the actual performance you get relative to FF.
 
Moreorless said:
I do have to say though I find the value of a lot of higher end ASPC/43/CX lenses questionable, I can see the attraction in terms of tele range and the cheaper options but the premium for faster primes and zooms just doesn't seem to be worthwhile to me when you look at the actual performance you get relative to FF.
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Are you saying that APS-C is so much inherently poorer in optical performance that it's not worth using high quality expensive lenses? Really?
 
There appears to be a need find a brand to cling to, a bit like the silly Canikon wars. It's better not to be fixated on any 1 brand. There are so many great cameras out there. Be free to pick whatever suits you best. And as we've heard here, some like a particular one and others don't. Quite normal. They all have their pros and cons for each individual. You are sure to find one that exactly pushes your button if you keep an open mind.
 
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Alastair said:
Are you saying that APS-C is so much inherently poorer in optical performance that it's not worth using high quality expensive lenses? Really?
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I'm saying more that if your buying higher end lenses below FF for low light and/or DOF control the value doesn't seem to be their relative to a a FF system. The 42.5mm F/1.2 Nocticron on m43 for example is what the equivalent to a FF 85mm F2.2ish? for £1200 I'm not sure I see the value there.
 
If anyone finds a single perfect camera, please let me know! There are plenty that tick assorted boxes but none that do everything. Besides, what might be perfect for you might not suit me and vice versa.
 
hashcake said:
I know that other companies are producing mirrorless camera systems but I get the feeling that perhaps Fuji are leading the way when it comes to popularity although I know that the Canon EOS M is also very popular.
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I'd put Sony up there also, they have a very good range of camera with excellent AF systems plus they have some full frame ones also. Decent array of lenses also. I think it's a very competitive market which each having their own strengths and weaknesses. The Canon and Nikon offerings didn't seem very good for me.
 
ianp5a said:
There appears to be a need find a brand to cling to, a bit like the silly Canikon wars. It's better not to be fixated on any 1 brand. There are so many great cameras out there. Be free to pick whatever suits you best. And as we've heard here, some like a particular one and others don't. Quite normal. They all have their pros and cons for each individual. You are sure to find one that exactly pushes your button if you keep an open mind.
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You're right Ian, and that's certainly the way I look at it. I've went from:

Nikon D40
Nikon D90
Nikon D7000
Canon 5D Mk iii
Canon 6D
Nikon D750 (still have)
Fuji X100s/t and XT1

I've jumped to the brand that delivers what I need in a camera. I think the reason people get so hung up on it is understandable. We invest a ton on money and want to know (convince ourselves) that we've made the right choice.... Nothing worse that buying a 6D then trying the D750 out...I knew instantly is made a horrible mistake :mad:
 
Yes. Of course lens compatibility is a strong reason why you would tend to stick to a brand or system. But this thread started out talking about switching to something new. And it's at that precise point, that it's probably better to take a fresh look at all the alternatives. Or buy one of each.:)
 
Moreorless said:
I'm saying more that if your buying higher end lenses below FF for low light and/or DOF control the value doesn't seem to be their relative to a a FF system. The 42.5mm F/1.2 Nocticron on m43 for example is what the equivalent to a FF 85mm F2.2ish? for £1200 I'm not sure I see the value there.
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That's a fairly extreme example in terms of price, the Fuji 56mm 1.2 is £750, and reasonably pointless equivalence arguments aside, it's still an f1.2 lens so is never going to be cheap.

Nobody is going to buy into a APS-C/M43 system for ultra shallow DoF, anyway.
 
You will take my Panasonic leica 25mm 1.4 for M4/3 from my cold dead hands, all arguments against be damned.
 
Going back to the original question, one of the big drivers of Fuji's success in the UK market has been the pricing..
  • Aggressive discounting - no one need pay list price for Fujis
  • On-going promotions - free lens deals, cash-back deals, free lens with cash-back deals, trade-in deals
  • UK-only refurb store - good prices on refurb models combined amazing discounts (a mint condition "refurb" X-E2 can be yours for around £270)
 
Alastair said:
Going back to the original question, one of the big drivers of Fuji's success in the UK market has been the pricing..
  • Aggressive discounting - no one need pay list price for Fujis
  • On-going promotions - free lens deals, cash-back deals, free lens with cash-back deals, trade-in deals
  • UK-only refurb store - good prices on refurb models combined amazing discounts (a mint condition "refurb" X-E2 can be yours for around £270)
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All good points, in the past 8 weeks I've bought the following:

Fuji X-T1 (Fuji Refurb)
Fuji X100S (Fuji Refurb)
Fuji 23mm 1.4, 56mm 1.2 & 55-200mm (£500 cashback)
Fuji 50-140mm

Between the refurbs (with ongoing paypal discount code) and cashback that all came to £1000 less than the overall cheapest price on Camerapricebuster for all that lot. The 50-140 was the only thing at 'normal' price, that's only because I'm an early adopter.
 
Alastair said:
Going back to the original question, one of the big drivers of Fuji's success in the UK market has been the pricing..
  • Aggressive discounting - no one need pay list price for Fujis
  • On-going promotions - free lens deals, cash-back deals, free lens with cash-back deals, trade-in deals
  • UK-only refurb store - good prices on refurb models combined amazing discounts (a mint condition "refurb" X-E2 can be yours for around £270)
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I wonder how long they can keep it up ,and it can have a down side affecting people becoming early adopter ? :)
 
simonblue said:
I wonder how long they can keep it up ,and it can have a down side affecting people becoming early adopter ? :)
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There have been more than a few squeaks from the early adopters.. ..
 
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