SORRY

Neil B said:
Nothing against Alan at all Rich, it's the people who pay money for shots that i just can't get my head around. I love the chase as much as getting the shots and a few on here no how much time i put in on Barn owls but would i do a workshop for arguably better shots is a no for me.
Spending hours watching and trying to predict an area they will hunt in builds a sort of bond with the birds and i'll be out tonight without the camera as i do 3 or 4 nights a week.
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you hit the nail right on the head Neil (y) too many so called wildlife togs putting in no effort and going for the easy option to get paid for images. :)
 
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dreameruk said:
you hit the nail right on the head Neil (y) too many so called wildlife togs putting in no effort to get paid for images.
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Sorry Lea, are you saying too many so called wildlife togs putting in no effort to get " paid " for images?
Or, too many so called wildlife togs putting in no effort to get " paid for " images? Do you know exactly who is doing this and claiming to be a wildlife photographer then? I am not saying that people may not do that, but I do not think you can tarnish everyone with the same brush just because it is something you would not do.
 
u8myufo said:
Sorry Lea, are you saying too many so called wildlife togs putting in no effort to get " paid " for images?
Or, too many so called wildlife togs putting in no effort to get " paid for " images? Do you know exactly who is doing this and claiming to be a wildlife photographer then? I am not saying that people may not do that, but I do not think you can tarnish everyone with the same brush just because it is something you would not do.
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edited my post lol, i know of loads but i will keep that to myself :)
 
Good sensible debate this. Neil I totally agree that it isnt everyones cup of tea, but is there anything in this world that is? :) I admit I would be reluctant to pay this kind of money for a day in a hide, but I am fortunate enough to have plenty of spare time so I am in the position to spend time searching and not needing them handed on a plate. This is not the case for many others though. For example on client who is a London lawyer has had 4 days in the hide in the last 2 weeks and plans another 10 in the coming months. This fellow has a huge workload and very little free time so you can understand why this kind of thing appeals to him.
Ive just returned from the hide now where a couple who are here for a weeks holiday have treated themselves to a day and despite the torrential rain we have had all day they are both over the moon and can not wait to return. Despite the rain he made 4 visits and the customer had filled 32 gig card! To see their excitment and appreciation makes it all worth while.
Going by the bookings Ive had their certainly is a big market for this and at the end of the day its horses for courses I guess.
 
And it sounds a fantastic way to make a living Alan and no one can take away what you have achieved through hard work.
Maybe i need more money and less time ;)
 
I for one am happy to visit the hide that Alan has. I wanted some different species to that I normally photograph and could spend may times the cost of the hide in travelling and getting nothing for possibly years. I remember the first time the Sparrowhawk sat for me and knowing it was a wild bird ( no baiting when I was there ) it felt great.

I do loads of research on species on my target list and part of that is finding out from others when, where etc. Alan has done that and agree if the bird was captive it wouldn't be as good but you could sit in Alan's hide and the Sparrowhawk may not turn up , it truly is a wild bird and is unpredictable.

Ask yourself this---- if a super rare species of bird appears in someone's garden and all the twitchers flood the location do you think it matters a hoot if the guy next to you gets an image similar to yours--- not one bit is the answer.point being that we all have common species but that what is common in my garden may be on your wish list. So for me to photograph the Spar was a real buzz and even better that Alan has done some groundwork and help with backgrounds etc.
 
markyboy.1967 said:
Ask yourself this---- if a super rare species of bird appears in someone's garden and all the twitchers flood the location do you think it matters a hoot if the guy next to you gets an image similar to yours.
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of course it does, especially if his gets published and yours dont
 
Seems the debate is going in two different directions.

Getting paid for workshop or hide images.

Setting up a hide and feeding to get that perfect picture.


For me a hide and a workshop mean different things. A hide is what I believe Alan has and runs successfully. A workshop is where you are guaranteed to get the image you want-- this could be with captive birds and having them placed in surroundings meeting your needs.i may be wrong in my thoughts but that's how I see things.

Setting up a hide like Alan has is for wild birds and as wild they may or may not come along or sit on a great perch. I have seen first hand the dedication Alan has and I can't fault his set up. He has given the smaller birds many many escape routes, he gives the feed when required, he provides fresh water-- what more can be asked of him...
 
dreameruk said:
edited my post lol, i know of loads but i will keep that to myself :)
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I think it is more of a case of Que Sera, Sera Lea. I hear they are re-writing the rules for aviation shots over in the other section. Pictures of planes at airshows are now frowned upon, the Loop however is quite acceptable :LOL: ;)
 
Hi all, I've been reading this thread with great interest, and can see both sides of the coin.

As some of you may know or not, being head chef in a very busy hotel, I find it very hard to get the time to spend out in the field. Die to long and very unsociable hours. So for me, going to something like Alan's hide would be perfect..(which Alan ill be up in the new year hopefully)

I feed the birds in the garden most days and in the last 2 weeks I've had a sparrowhawk 3 times, only 1 successful attack mind. I did manage to get a few photos but they weren't anything like Alan's....!

However I can see some people saying that using these type of workshop hides is wrong, I can understand that also, many of you that I have had the pleasure to meet, put hours of time and effort in, and the images I have seen are breathtaking.

Just my tuppence worth

Jason
 
I'm frankly amazed at some of the stuff in this thread. Yes, I freely admit (see sig) that I've got all the gear and no idea, but I was filming Ospreys/Eagles over 20 years ago and was in the young ornitholigists club nearly forty years ago so perhaps I'm being unfair on myself?:shrug:

What I'm saying is that I'm no expert - in photography or wildlife, but that's becasue I have a decent living elsewhere in an unrelated field where I'm 'fairly knowledgable'.

What gets me is just how seriously some people take this stuff (or themselves) which I think of as a hobby, unless it's their primary source of income. But then, I go out with a camera solely for for enjoyment and escapism. Arriving at TP has given me some food for thought and some inspiraton too, but I never expected a penis waving competition. Am I surrounded by wage earning pros here? If so, I'll leave with my tail between my legs becasue it has been my mistake.:(

Regardless of how these shots were taken, they are fairly good. Not the best I've seen (I also guessed there was some apparent PP which apparently isn't there!). I have no need to doubt the word of the OP and frankly don't care. Pics are nice to see - end of story.

Is it just a case of jealosy when people complain that something isn't right?

I'm sorry if I'm interjecting like a confused five year old, but that's how I feel here.:|
 
u8myufo said:
I think it is more of a case of Que Sera, Sera Lea. I hear they are re-writing the rules for aviation shots over in the other section. Pictures of planes at airshows are now frowned upon, the Loop however is quite acceptable :LOL: ;)
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and your point is ?
 
FourRingCircus said:
I'm frankly amazed at some of the stuff in this thread.
John,it is nothing more than a healthy discussion between people, all giving their opinion on the subject. Opinions are like Nose`s, we all got one, and they all smell ;)

What I'm saying is that I'm no expert - in photography or wildlife, but that's becasue I have a decent living elsewhere in an unrelated field where I'm 'fairly knowledgable'.
Who exactly are the experts :shrug: Dont put yourself down so much John, you have produced some great shots since joining and always seem to be improving imo

What gets me is just how seriously some people take this stuff (or themselves) which I think of as a hobby, unless it's their primary source of income. But then, I go out with a camera solely for for enjoyment and escapism. Arriving at TP has given me some food for thought and some inspiraton too, but I never expected a penis waving competition. Am I surrounded by wage earning pros here? If so, I'll leave with my tail between my legs becasue it has been my mistake.:(
Are people not allowed to take things seriously John? We all have a different outlook on things in life, which is what makes us individuals. You take any hobby and there will always be those who can invest more money and time on it, something that I have never let get to me.

Regardless of how these shots were taken, they are fairly good. Not the best I've seen (I also guessed there was some apparent PP which apparently isn't there!). I have no need to doubt the word of the OP and frankly don't care. Pics are nice to see - end of story.
Not the best you have seen? :thinking: I dont think the OP was trying to make out they are John. The thing is there are those that are interested in how the shots were taken and do care. It`s what makes this site work (y)

Is it just a case of jealosy when people complain that something isn't right?
Is it just jealousy if somebody replies to a thread and leaves absolutely no C&C about the picture itself :shrug:
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dreameruk said:
and your point is ?
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My point was, whatever will be. We all have our views but nothing will ever change just because we do not agree with it. That was the sensible bit (y) The aviation part was the light hearted humour bit, which obviously you are struggling with :p
 
u8myufo said:
My point was, whatever will be. We all have our views but nothing will ever change just because we do not agree with it. That was the sensible bit (y) The aviation part was the light hearted humour bit, which obviously you are struggling with :p
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its hard to tell when your taking the razz lol
 
u8myufo said:
Are people not allowed to take things seriously John?
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Yes, I'm sorry. I'm actaully just jealous that people have enough free time to take a couple of my hobbies (birds/photos) more seriously than me.;)

Will keep aiming to become more serious but I'll get back in my box for now(y)
 
Wow it's all been said, great set of pictures. You have clearly put the groundwork in AND been rewarded with great results. Cracking.
 
markyboy.1967 said:
I'm sure Alan is using the Nikon D300s and a Sigma 120-300, possibly with the 1.4TC added... But I'm sure be will correct me if I'm wrong when he come back on line and reads this thread.
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Spot on Mark, thanks to your advice ;) Put the cam out for a couple of hours tonight from a different angle to show the hide. Only a few seconds of footage though and poor quality as its only the cheap bushnel version plus it was pouring down. Can I say again thanks to everyone for the positive comments ;)

Clip here..... http://www.flickr.com/photos/46443141@N07/8100617190/in/photostream
 
Excellent images :clap:Reward for all your efforts .
 
Great shots and very nice to see so much dedication. Well done !!. If only my back would allow me to do the same.
 
Neil B said:
Nothing against Alan at all Rich, it's the people who pay money for shots that i just can't get my head around. I love the chase as much as getting the shots and a few on here no how much time i put in on Barn owls but would i do a workshop for arguably better shots is a no for me.
Spending hours watching and trying to predict an area they will hunt in builds a sort of bond with the birds and i'll be out tonight without the camera as i do 3 or 4 nights a week.
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Totally agree with you here Neil. There are lots of people who post on here, who make me wonder how they get such super clean, pin sharp images almost on a daily basis. Birds that aren't found in everyone's back garden, are captured with stunning detail.Occasionally I get lucky when I go out, but mainly they will be everyday songbird species. I have seen people trip themselves up stating they are planning a trip to a wildlife centre, then post immaculate images which, when pressed they never reply to posts asking where/when/what lens etc. Usually the exif is stripped too, a give away for me.
For me, if I go out in the morning, I will get just as much pleasure nailing a perfect Robin/Tit as anything else as I love ALL nature.
Finally the Sparrowhawk images are STUNNING. My favourite BOP. I have no problem with anybody feeding birds to get images. It's a win win for the birds and the photographer. I just don't like people passing off images they captured the easy way as if they have invested real time and effort..........
 
Ian, in all fairness, a lot of people do not have the time to invest in this hobby. So they take advantage of others hard work and patience.

I fully understand what you are saying, but their is another side to this debate , as pointed out above.
 
Beautiful images of a lovely bird, and great effort gone into creating the hide/station!

Loving the reflection pool as well, how long do these need to be to get a decent distance away/height of reflection? (pics of that would be great thanks)

Best,

drew
 
fracster said:
Ian, in all fairness, a lot of people do not have the time to invest in this hobby. So they take advantage of others hard work and patience.
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As long as they don't pass off those shots as natural wild birds going about their daily business I don't mind. When they do, that they take away all the hard work invested in bird photography. Money is also a huge factor. Alan is spending huge amounts of money feeding the birds. Thats his investment. Others buy a 5k 500mm lens instead. The people I'm talking about buy a short lens ( relatively speaking for birding ) and snap away then strip the exif to hide the fact that its a captive bird/animal.
That devalues the work invested by others. I have shots taken at a local hawking centre. They are labelled as such. Even with a 400mm lens I could never reproduce this in the wild.


Harris Hawk by ian hatch, on Flickr
 
h14nha said:
As long as they don't pass off those shots as natural wild birds going about their daily business I don't mind. When they do, that they take away all the hard work invested in bird photography. Money is also a huge factor. Alan is spending huge amounts of money feeding the birds. Thats his investment. Others buy a 5k 500mm lens instead. The people I'm talking about buy a short lens ( relatively speaking for birding ) and snap away then strip the exif to hide the fact that its a captive bird/animal.
That devalues the work invested by others. I have shots taken at a local hawking centre. They are labelled as such. Even with a 400mm lens I could never reproduce this in the wild.


Harris Hawk by ian hatch, on Flickr
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It's a contentious debate.... because, technically, these birds are doing what is natural, albeit in an engineered way....
On the other hand, a captive bird, when photographed, should not be passed off as a wild one....
And... that's a superb shot of an immature harris....
 
Solo man said:
It's a contentious debate.... because, technically, these birds are doing what is natural, albeit in an engineered way....
On the other hand, a captive bird, when photographed, should not be passed off as a wild one....
And... that's a superb shot of an immature harris....
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Thanks Lee, he was a beauty :D
 
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