Stay with Adobe or break the ties and move on?

[myotis]

Graham, I loved C1, the end result was lovely. What I needed was a file ... longest edge 1500 pixels and file no bigger than 1.5MB. I did post on the C1 forum asking if it could be achieved but unfortunately I was told it couldn't be achieved.

Well, my idea does seem to work, but maybe not perfectly enough for your needs.

1. Pre - setup the crop tool to take its cropping instructions from the output processing recipe

2. Pre- setup an output recipe to use a long dimension of 1500 pixels (and the other parameters needed e.g sRGB colour space, export destination etc)

4. set up a C1 session for the sports event (customise C1 interface to remove all tool tabs, not relevant to this task, save as template)

5. Drag images from PM to C1 icon

6. Select all images in C1 and use autocorrect option (use the Red, Green and Blue channel option for auto levels, and tweak shadow and highlight thresholds, this tends to cut through haze and give subtle lift to contrast)

7. Tweak images with sliders (if needed, I find the auto correct is very good)

3. crop the images, drop dimensions are shown on the crop lines, longer dimension is locked, shorter dimension changes as you change the crop, keep the shorter dimension under 1000 pixels.

4. crop all the images

5 select all the images.

6. Cmd/ctrl D to run process recipe.

7. Jpegs appear in folder defined in process recipe.

8. open folder in PM

The only issue I had was that because jpeg conversion size depends on the information in the raw, the jpegs varied in size, but in my (inadequate) trials I found that if I set the Jpeg quality to 95%, the images I exported all lay between 800kb and 1.4Mb. At 100% I ended up with images as large as 1.9Gb.

Does this sound workable for you? If you think it worthwhile pursuing, there are a couple of recent Capture One videos that might be useful:

1. rapid editing here

2 Output recipes here

and an older one on sessions (instead of catalogues, but you were probably already using sessions in C1) here

And of course you can always get back to me, but unless anyone else shows an interest in this, maybe by PM so we don't clutter up this thread.

 

[RedRobin]

Having at last managed to activate my perpetually licenced Adobe Creative Suite on my new Mac running macOS 10.14 Mojave, for my purposes I have no need to update beyond CS6 to the CC subscription model. Affinity Photo would be my substitute for Photoshop if necessary in the future.

 

[droj]

Affinity Designer looks more like Adobe Illustrator.

Whoops, yes it does - I meant Affinity Pub(lisher) of course!

Back to pixel editing - we can change what program we use without penalty, but for raw processing there might be another implication - if you keep your raws as I do (so that I can revisit them and maybe process them differently but not usually wanting to start from scratch each time), then the adjustments saved in one program aren't normally going to carry over to one of another make. So there's an investment of time and effort that I might not want to chuck away.

 

[DanielPSAC]

Adobe Lightroom is also under attack from Capture One and ON1. Word in cyberspace is that so many users resent the subscription model and will move away, hence this thread! People are fickle and markets can change. Do you remember QuarkXPress? - Adobe InDesign killed it but QuarkXPress is back. Photoshop is not immune.

I think that Lightroom is at the center of all of this. People moved away from Photoshop because Lightroom was easier to sell due to the lower-learning curve. Now Adobe expects people to pay monthly for a program that is so rudimentary that challengers have popped up who can compete with them by pricing against Adobe.

Basically Photoshop, in my opinion, is worth the monthly fee. If you don't need all the added features you shouldn't use it. This is where Lightroom can be good. But Lightroom isn't worth the monthly fee. So the entire service gets a lot of hate. Bit of a blunder by Adobe as they cannibalized Photoshop for Lightroom then bundled them together.

 

[Silver Simon]

Well, my idea does seem to work, but maybe not perfectly enough for your needs.

1. Pre - setup the crop tool to take its cropping instructions from the output processing recipe

2. Pre- setup an output recipe to use a long dimension of 1500 pixels (and the other parameters needed e.g sRGB colour space, export destination etc)

4. set up a C1 session for the sports event (customise C1 interface to remove all tool tabs, not relevant to this task, save as template)

5. Drag images from PM to C1 icon

6. Select all images in C1 and use autocorrect option (use the Red, Green and Blue channel option for auto levels, and tweak shadow and highlight thresholds, this tends to cut through haze and give subtle lift to contrast)

7. Tweak images with sliders (if needed, I find the auto correct is very good)

3. crop the images, drop dimensions are shown on the crop lines, longer dimension is locked, shorter dimension changes as you change the crop, keep the shorter dimension under 1000 pixels.

4. crop all the images

5 select all the images.

6. Cmd/ctrl D to run process recipe.

7. Jpegs appear in folder defined in process recipe.

8. open folder in PM

The only issue I had was that because jpeg conversion size depends on the information in the raw, the jpegs varied in size, but in my (inadequate) trials I found that if I set the Jpeg quality to 95%, the images I exported all lay between 800kb and 1.4Mb. At 100% I ended up with images as large as 1.9Gb.

Does this sound workable for you? If you think it worthwhile pursuing, there are a couple of recent Capture One videos that might be useful:

1. rapid editing here

2 Output recipes here

and an older one on sessions (instead of catalogues, but you were probably already using sessions in C1) here

And of course you can always get back to me, but unless anyone else shows an interest in this, maybe by PM so we don't clutter up this thread.

Graham, thank you kindly for spending the time on this. I've just got in from shooting AFC Bournemouth v Newcastle. I'll investigate in the next couple of days. Just though ..... My C1 licence has run out , in the words of Homer Simpson ... D'OH!!

 

[myotis]

Just though ..... My C1 licence has run out , in the words of Homer Simpson ... D'OH!!

Was that a v12 or v11 license? If it was V11, then V12 should give you a 30 day trial.

 

[RedRobin]

Just thought ..... My C1 licence has run out , in the words of Homer Simpson ... D'OH!!

Was that a v12 or v11 license? If it was V11, then V12 should give you a 30 day trial.

.... If I remember correctly, apart from a trial option you are also offered a discounted price if upgrading from v11.

 

[myotis]

.... If I remember correctly, apart from a trial option you are also offered a discounted price if upgrading from v11.

Indeed there is, about £130, but unless, my suggestions work for Simon, he won't want to upgrade, and without a working copy of C1 he won't be able to find out if they will work !!

You can buy a months subscription, which Phase offer for users needing a temporary additional license, but if I remember, its a bit pricey.

 

[dan_yell]

@DanielPSAC - I've been using photoshop since 1999 and if it was subscription model i would have, so far (and will be using it for foreseeable future) I would have spent £2400. One stand alone version was around £800 (if i remember rightly) so for some users (who use select features and perhaps were not so heavily influenced by all the new features) the subscription model is just not a cost effective solution. if you're not making money from it, you're p***ing money up the wall, if you happen to be in a financial position where to have to weigh up the pros and cons of spending £10 a month on something. I'd rather save £10 a month for a new lens. I know its a feature packed program, but not all of us need all those features (i am using photoshop from 2006). If, like you've said, it was an essential part of my business, then i'm sure i could then justify it, but i make nothing from my hobby and as i say, would rather spend extra money on a lens. We all differ because we all use it in a different way.

@RedRobin when i was in 6th form, my media studies teacher wanted us to learn Quark Express cos it was the industry standard package but because it was only available on a MAc at that time, the school would not support it because our 'IT' (not sure really how qualified they were) didn't know anything about Macs. So we had to use Pagemaker, which i seem to remember in the late 90s was not much whack. It's quite ironic that pagemaker led to indesign which now seems to have taken over a bit. Us with our lowly one computer between 2 GCSE and 2 A level classes really was pretty pants, lol.

 

[jerry12953]

.... Thank you, Dan - That's very helpful. However, I have now looked at Affinity Photo and I think it will suit my needs much better and it will fit into my Capture One RAW editing round-trip workflow.

I'm not primarily driven by the cost difference but it so happens that Affinity Photo costs about £50 whereas Photoshop Elements is about £80, both perpetually licenced rather than the 'orrible subscriptions model which we *all hate! [*most of us who are amateurs rather than fee earning professionals].

It's not just amateurs that hate Adobe's subscription model for LR. I'm still professional myself but on a very low income these days. Even higher earners than me will look at the value-for-money aspect of Adobe's model and think. "No way, Jose" Even pro's hate to be ripped off.

A very interesting thread, by the way.

 

[Retune]

Serif, the Affinity guys, occasionally mention they may consider some sort of DAM tool in the future, though whether this would be a full-on LR competitor with integrated raw processing (which is what most people would like) isn't quite clear. Most recently:

'[Serif Managing Directoy Ashley] Hewson says there will probably be an asset manager to organise Affinity files, perhaps in 2020.'

https://www.printweek.com/print-week/feature/1166103/britain-would-be-poorer-sans-serif

 

[Jesus Quintana]

Thanks for this thread. I just checked my subscription and is up for renewal April 28th. I've been leaving Adobe for 16 months now! I am going a the end of next month though.

I bought ON1 Raw 16 months ago but never really used it because I like LR so much and I'm absolutely dreadful at PS. I've had PS for as long as the subscription service has been going...and I still cannot do anything in it apart from badly removing objects. No matter how often I play a tutorial on YT and pause it, I just cannot do what I am seeing. I used to have Manny Ortiz's frequency separation things where you clicked 'Play' and it did most of it for you. I managed to do this twice. I lost them all in the update a couple of months ago so I'm throwing the towel in.

I'm going to put some effort into ON1 Photo Raw 19 (I upgraded but still haven't used it properly!) I *may check out Capture 1 but my subscription being up for renewal is probably a blessing in disguise.

 

[rob-nikon]

Well, Adobe have finally replied to post about include custom web address function for Spark pages. Sadly they have decided to not progress that feature further. This means I need to look at whether my website is really fit for purpose considering their poor SEO and now confirmation that spark pages I create will never be linked to my website address. I was using them for blog style posts.

My subscription is up in November so that gives me 8 months to look at alternative software and web site options. I was only justifying the subscription by the bundled portfolio website as I don’t use photoshop. I guess I too will be looking at other options now.

 

[Bristolian]

Having spent the last few weeks trying out several alternatives to LR and PS I can say that nothing truly matches the LR DAM system. With both DxO Photolab and On1 Photo RAW 2019 I can edit my images to get results equaling, to my eyes, the results from the Adobe packages. I'm not so keen on the DxO method of applying presets, even though you can make adjustments afterwards - I don't use any presets in my current workflow.

On1 Photo RAW 2019 has a form of DAM but, as far as I can tell, it isn't as sophisticated as LR - it is, however, quite workable and I would be happy using this software.

Then there is the curve ball offering of View NX-D plus Capture NX-D which comes free with Nikon cameras that no-one ever owns up to using (except maybe Gramps). In practice these are perfectly functional packages and you have the benefit of knowing that the way they render images straight out of the camera is the way Nikon intended them to be rendered. Capture NX-D has some quirky ways of doing things but the end result is perfectly satisfactory.

So, the question I have to answer for myself is; would I be comfortable with any of the alternatives or does LR/PS give me something they don't? I've got until the end of this week to find the answer

 

[Brian G]

Having spent the last few weeks trying out several alternatives to LR and PS I can say that nothing truly matches the LR DAM system. With both DxO Photolab and On1 Photo RAW 2019 I can edit my images to get results equaling, to my eyes, the results from the Adobe packages. I'm not so keen on the DxO method of applying presets, even though you can make adjustments afterwards - I don't use any presets in my current workflow.

On1 Photo RAW 2019 has a form of DAM but, as far as I can tell, it isn't as sophisticated as LR - it is, however, quite workable and I would be happy using this software.

Then there is the curve ball offering of View NX-D plus Capture NX-D which comes free with Nikon cameras that no-one ever owns up to using (except maybe Gramps). In practice these are perfectly functional packages and you have the benefit of knowing that the way they render images straight out of the camera is the way Nikon intended them to be rendered. Capture NX-D has some quirky ways of doing things but the end result is perfectly satisfactory.

So, the question I have to answer for myself is; would I be comfortable with any of the alternatives or does LR/PS give me something they don't? I've got until the end of this week to find the answer

Regarding On1 DAM, provided you are disciplined enough to apply title and keywords to your images when importing them, a simple search command is sufficient to be able to find any photo.
Like LR, On1 neither knows nor cares where your images are located.
Not sure what you mean when you say the DAM in On1 isn't as sophisticated as LR?
Maybe because On1 doesn't have a DAM, just a file browser.
For me, image searching using keywords in On1 is just the same (and just as quick) as in LR

 

[ianp5a]

Having spent the last few weeks trying out several alternatives to LR and PS I can say that nothing truly matches the LR DAM system. With both DxO Photolab and On1 Photo RAW 2019 I can edit my images to get results equaling, to my eyes, the results from the Adobe packages. I'm not so keen on the DxO method of applying presets, even though you can make adjustments afterwards - I don't use any presets in my current workflow.

On1 Photo RAW 2019 has a form of DAM but, as far as I can tell, it isn't as sophisticated as LR - it is, however, quite workable and I would be happy using this software.

Then there is the curve ball offering of View NX-D plus Capture NX-D which comes free with Nikon cameras that no-one ever owns up to using (except maybe Gramps). In practice these are perfectly functional packages and you have the benefit of knowing that the way they render images straight out of the camera is the way Nikon intended them to be rendered. Capture NX-D has some quirky ways of doing things but the end result is perfectly satisfactory.

So, the question I have to answer for myself is; would I be comfortable with any of the alternatives or does LR/PS give me something they don't? I've got until the end of this week to find the answer

Did you try DigiKam? (digikam.org) I use it's comprehensive DAM functionality, integrated with my raw and other applications. It has hierarchical tags, star rating, colour tagging, calendar view, fuzzy search (draw sketch or pick a similar picture), face recognition, geo-tagging, EXIF editing, bulk watermarking, upload etc.
https://scribblesandsnaps.com/2015/03/31/digital-asset-management-with-digikam/

 

[Bristolian]

Hi Ian, I did try DigiKam a couple of years ago but wasn't so impressed with the editing features. I see there is a new version available so I will give it another go. Thanks for the recommendation

 

[bulldog5988]

Also try Darktable in conjunction with Digikam ie RAW processing.

 

[ianp5a]

Hi Ian, I did try DigiKam a couple of years ago but wasn't so impressed with the editing features. I see there is a new version available so I will give it another go. Thanks for the recommendation

Use any editor you fancy with DigiKam. See bulldog's reply above. That's the advantage to the open source programs. They are happy to integrate with with other applications, and don't try to lock you in to their own world. Each one specialises in what they do best.

I'll go "Open in" Raw Therapee, or Hugin or Gimp 2.10 depending what I'm doing.

 

[Bristolian]

Hi again folks, I thought I would come back in here and let you all know what I decided to do and why. When I started out I was looking for an alternative to the Adobe Photography web based package of Lightroom and Photoshop. Some form of catalogue or a sophisticated Bridge-like method of showing image thumbnails, keywording and rating was high on my list of requirements as was replacements for both LR and PP.

I have tried more packages than I care to remember and it will probably take me some time to completely remove all traces of them from my PC hard drive and Registry There are some interesting programs and packages on offer these days and many are trying to emulate the Adobe offering but I don't think there are any that are quite there yet. I found a number of the individual applications gave me very similar results to LR or PS and I feel that it wouldn't take too long to get used to their way of doing things but there was nothing that stood out and said here I am and I'm everything you want/need.

I came within a whisker of pulling the plug and buying On1 Photo Raw 2019.2 but at the last second couldn't find that definitive element that made it a must have, so put my wallet away

The upshot is that I didn't find a single package or combination of individual applications that made me think yep, that'll do the job. So, I will take Adobe's free three months and then renew with them again, at least for another year, but I plan to keep an eye on the progress On1 and DxO make in the hope they will get closer enough to Adobe for this time next year.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions - they were a great help

 

[AgentOrange76]

I have On1 2019 and 2018. I bought 2018 when it was on offer with a free upgrade to 2019. I find 2018 slightly easier to use for most functions but there is almost too many options to adjust for basic editing. It also runs slow on decent spec laptop, freezes readily.

I have a trial of Affinity and liked it initially until i asked to open 50 Raw files. 40 minutes to open the files and be able to edit them is ridiculous.

Im now trialling capture 1 as the free fuji option or go with the cheaper fuji only paid option. im liking it a lot so far

 

[Bristolian]

I have a decent spec desktop computer on which I do all my editing and a new mid-spec laptop that just gets used for culling images if we're away from home. I've never been comfortable editing on a laptop as colours and contrast change every time you change the screen viewing angle.

 

[AgentOrange76]

it has an IPS screen so minimal issue with screen but also have it wired to a monitor for editing

 

[Bristolian]

it has an IPS screen so minimal issue with screen but also have it wired to a monitor for editing

Should work quite well then

I wasn't intending to sound critical, BTW

 

[Toxic]

Upgraded to OXS Mojave and now CC2019 is not playing ball, crashes when using plugins, healing brush lags and I just get the spinning beach ball.

Spoke to Adobe helpline and they admitted there were problems with the new OSX, so I am ditching it and have gone for Capture 1 & Affinity photo.

Capture 1 renders the Fuji files much better than lightroom ever did.

Downside Adobe won't let me cancel my subscription until my renewal date which is pants as the program does not work with my Mac..

 

[SsSsSsSsSnake]

You can cancel but have to pay a percentage

 

[ecoleman]

Upgraded to OXS Mojave and now CC2019 is not playing ball, crashes when using plugins, healing brush lags and I just get the spinning beach ball.

Spoke to Adobe helpline and they admitted there were problems with the new OSX, so I am ditching it and have gone for Capture 1 & Affinity photo.

Capture 1 renders the Fuji files much better than lightroom ever did.

Downside Adobe won't let me cancel my subscription until my renewal date which is pants as the program does not work with my Mac..

No problems here with Mojave’s and cc

 

[trevjm]

Upgraded to OXS Mojave and now CC2019 is not playing ball, crashes when using plugins, healing brush lags and I just get the spinning beach ball.

Spoke to Adobe helpline and they admitted there were problems with the new OSX, so I am ditching it and have gone for Capture 1 & Affinity photo.

Capture 1 renders the Fuji files much better than lightroom ever did.

Downside Adobe won't let me cancel my subscription until my renewal date which is pants as the program does not work with my Mac..

You can cancel your Adobe subscription at any time during the 12 month period. What Adobe do is charge you 50% of the remaining subscription fees. If they are saying otherwise then that is wrong.

 

[Richard King]

I've totally moved to C1

It's really strong for professional workflows.

Very customisable interface, where you can have just what you need when you want it. I have full PM integration, full backup integration

I can now edit weddings three times as fast as I did in LR. This is due to its performance and the way I customise the workflow

More to the point, for me, backing up (fully backing up properly across multiple devices and locations) is now a breeze, due to the session folder structure

Finished image quality is better too

I process weddings, concerts, products, properties and everything else in C1

 

[RedRobin]

I've totally moved to C1

It's really strong for professional workflows.

Very customisable interface, where you can have just what you need when you want it. I have full PM integration, full backup integration

I can now edit weddings three times as fast as I did in LR. This is due to its performance and the way I customise the workflow

More to the point, for me, backing up (fully backing up properly across multiple devices and locations) is now a breeze, due to the session folder structure

Finished image quality is better too

I process weddings, concerts, products, properties and everything else in C1

.... Although I am not a professional photographer (but am a retired-but-hardwired professional Art Director) I only shoot RAW and moved to Capture One when Apple announced they were no longer going to support Aperture.

I have ON1, Affinity, and recently Luminar Flex installed on my desktop Mac but only use them as third-party filters in Photoshop CS6 on a round-trip from and back to Capture One for final export.

I don't think that any of all these applications are necessarily 'better' than the rest but one might be 'best suited' to our individual needs and preferences. Personally I like the way some can work together as a 'toolbox' to achieve our visions.

 

[AgentOrange76]

im liking Capture 1 trial and currently the fuji express version, finding editing far simpler than On1 and affinity. im probably going to at least get the full fuji version.

 

[Brian G]

.... Although I am not a professional photographer (but am a retired-but-hardwired professional Art Director) I only shoot RAW and moved to Capture One when Apple announced they were no longer going to support Aperture.

I have ON1, Affinity, and recently Luminar Flex installed on my desktop Mac but only use them as third-party filters in Photoshop CS6 on a round-trip from and back to Capture One for final export.

I don't think that any of all these applications are necessarily 'better' than the rest but one might be 'best suited' to our individual needs and preferences. Personally I like the way some can work together as a 'toolbox' to achieve our visions.

I agree.
No one program can do everything and all have their strength and weaknesses.
It makes sense to have a variety of tools available to do the job.

 

[Box Brownie]

I'd love an alternative, but nothing I've trialled comes close. For me, it's asset management that's important (and tacking a file browser to the left hand side of the screen isn't what I mean). Most software has keywording but none have the power of Lightroom for filtering and displaying images based on keyword. Collections & smart collections are immensely useful to me, and after many months, I've finally got the print module doing what I want it to. Survey mode & flagging are also great tools for culling down images after a shoot.

Images go into Lightroom, then can come out for website, Flickr, screen wallpaper or Instagram in one click. I can soft proof then print contact sheets to A2 in a few more clicks and can find all the images I've taken of tree silhouettes or my favourite cat in seconds.

I just feel that Adobe have done pretty much nothing but collect subscription revenue since they went CC. No feature jumps like LR 4-5-6, just the occasional slider (Dehaze) and a juggling of UI elements.

There's lots of options out there for Photoshop equivalents. Why no-one wants to have a (proper) go at asset management is beyond me. Maybe I'm just impatient...

@Harlequin565 I wonder if you looked at ACDsee Standard for its DAM functions? I have yet to trial it but it does look interesting!

I like LR 6 for its DAM and the Kiss PP I used to do combined with PS6 but I now am getting into DxO PL2 but keeping LR as the DAM. What caught my attention was that ACDsee can import the LR catalogue honouring all the keywording etc. What is not clear to me is how well it does the searches???

Back in the day when I used PSP the Adobe software Photoshop was referred to as "the 800lb gorilla of software....." even now having PS I only use a fraction of its functionality. The trouble (?) with the 'swiss army knife' approach is it becomes "a Jack of all Trades but Master of none..."

So as noted by many I/we have a set of tools (different programs) in the PC or Mac and come to rely on each of them for the best qualities, for us, to create the PP'ed end result.
PS I did note that even though ACDsee Standard is described as just for being a DAM it does include some limited PP capabilities.......why???

 

[Brian G]

@Harlequin565 I wonder if you looked at ACDsee Standard for its DAM functions? I have yet to trial it but it does look interesting!

I like LR 6 for its DAM and the Kiss PP I used to do combined with PS6 but I now am getting into DxO PL2 but keeping LR as the DAM. What caught my attention was that ACDsee can import the LR catalogue honouring all the keywording etc. What is not clear to me is how well it does the searches???

Back in the day when I used PSP the Adobe software was referred to as "the 800lb gorilla of software....." even now having PS I only use a fraction of its functionality. The trouble (?) with the 'swiss army knife' approach is it becomes "a Jack of all Trades but Master of none..."

So as noted by many I/we have a set of tools (different programs) in the PC or Mac and come to rely on each of them for the best qualities, for us, to create the PP'ed end result.
PS I did note that even though ACDsee Standard is described as just for being a DAM it does include some limited PP capabilities.......why???

To me, being forced to use the catalog in Lightroom was one of it's biggest drawbacks.

On1 Photo allows you to browse your image folders, just like a file manager, (but with images, either thumbnail or full screen.)
Provided you have the discipline to keyword all your images on download, searching in On1 is just as fast and simple as it was in Lightroom.
It's not a DAM, but On1 allows me to find images quickly, which is what I want.
With its layers and masks, On1 also does much of what Photoshop could do, in addition to replacing all the functions of LR.