Studio flash brands – I'm 30 years out of date

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Ok, I'm back into photography after about 30 years out of the game and am in the middle of investing in Canon EOS 5D MK3 based kit with L glass.

I want to get a three or four head studio flash kit together but am lacking in knowledge as to what the best and most reliable brands are these days.

Back in the day (late 80s) there was really only Bowens, Elinchrom and Broncolour. Back then (I should know as I used to work in the Flash Centre Hire Department in London) Elinchrom were totally unreliable, their heads used to pack up almost on a daily basis, the poor repair guys out back were inundated with blown heads. Bowens were more reliable and I had no knowledge of Broncolour back then.

So can any of you knowledgeable studio flash light chaps bring me up to speed on what makes/models I should be looking at.

Appart from heads, I'll need soft-boxes, snoots and the usual accessories for 3-point lighting set up.

This will be for a small studio doing portrait shoots, head and shoulders and full-length.

Thanks all.
 
Well Bowens went bust although I still have four heads going strong - any minute now you will probably get recommended Godox or a rebranded equivalent as they are 25% of the price of any of the traditional brands. Lencarta are also good value for money. Broncolour are great but stratospherically expensive and Profoto / Elinchrom slightly less.

It would appear that the Chinese brands are getting much better in quality although I do love my Profoto gear.
 
CreativeWriter said:
I want to get a three or four head studio flash kit together but am lacking in knowledge as to what the best and most reliable brands are these days.
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Hmm best and most reliable... I've said this before but I do like repeating myself, we're spoilt for choice with lighting equipment now, unless you choose very poorly almost anything you buy will be small, quiet, reasonably reliable and have decent performance.

Profoto and Broncolor live in the same kind of pricing/reputation territory, Profoto does seem to be giving up on the high end studio though and has been focusing on smaller and smaller battery powered monoblocks (Pro-B range to B1, B1X, A1, A1X, Connect, C1 Plus, B2, B10, B10 Plus).

There's still a few different brands hovering around but for what you've said it probably otherwise comes down to a choice between Elinchrom (I'm not a fan of their current strategy, the portable stuff looks good but no one seems to like their latest mains head the ELC Pro HD and D-lite/BRX are varying degrees of unreliable/out of date/overpriced) and Godox (Bowens does still exist sort of but I think we can ignore them unless you're considering used). Ultimately your money will go further with Godox as they have a complete system, they're cheaper and Bowens mount still works out better (I think? Perhaps that's not so true now Bowens are gone).

Regardless for what you've said any of the brands I've mentioned will work just fine, for Godox you can take a look at either Essential photo (https://www.essentialphoto.co.uk/ca...hy-lighting/flash-lighting/studio-flash-kits/) or Lencarta (https://www.lencarta.com/all-products/studio-lighting-kits). You can buy Godox from lots of different places but either of those companies you can rely on if you have any warranty issues.
 
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CreativeWriter said:
Back in the day (late 80s) there was really only Bowens, Elinchrom and Broncolour. Back then (I should know as I used to work in the Flash Centre Hire Department in London) Elinchrom were totally unreliable, their heads used to pack up almost on a daily basis, the poor repair guys out back were inundated with blown heads. Bowens were more reliable and I had no knowledge of Broncolour back then.

So can any of you knowledgeable studio flash light chaps bring me up to speed on what makes/models I should be looking at.
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You are blessed with tons of options, what's your budget ?

CreativeWriter said:
Apart from heads, I'll need soft-boxes, snoots and the usual accessories for 3-point lighting set up.

This will be for a small studio doing portrait shoots, head and shoulders and full-length.
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Is it just for a static studio or will you potentially use it on a portable basis? Had you even thought of that ?
 
Not sure about Godox, and I think they are made in China? Call me old-fashioned, but I won’t touch anything made in China, no matter how folk try to convince me that they are better than they used to be. The Chinese brands have been ‘getting better’ for 30 years, yet here we are… But, I really don’t want to get into any flaming regard this. I won’t touch Chinese, end of verse, chapter and story.

It’s looking like Profoto or Elinchrom or Broncolour right now. But if Profoto are packing it all in for small battery powered lights I’d have to cross them off my list, which leaves just Elinchrom and Broncolour.

Budget does not really matter, I’m looking for quality and reliability. But, I don’t have unlimited funds, I’m thinking £500 per head, plus cost for stands and softboxes etc.

Yes, Diving Pete, studio only, doubt I’d use it on a portable basis to be honest.
 
CreativeWriter said:
Not sure about Godox, and I think they are made in China? Call me old-fashioned, but I won’t touch anything made in China, no matter how folk try to convince me that they are better than they used to be. The Chinese brands have been ‘getting better’ for 30 years, yet here we are… But, I really don’t want to get into any flaming regard this. I won’t touch Chinese, end of verse, chapter and story.
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I'll bet that all the electrical components in your car are Chinese - as are all the flash gear you could find with the exception of some of the ranges of the top brands. And probably your telly, computer, phone, etc etc

Flash has come a long way in the last 10 years - and realistically the Chinese aren't just competing - they're leading the way. Only Profoto has an ecosystem close to Godox, and it's at 4x the price.

So your choice is Profoto or buying something out of date if you don't want Chinese.
 
CreativeWriter said:
Not sure about Godox, and I think they are made in China? Call me old-fashioned, but I won’t touch anything made in China, no matter how folk try to convince me that they are better than they used to be. The Chinese brands have been ‘getting better’ for 30 years, yet here we are… But, I really don’t want to get into any flaming regard this. I won’t touch Chinese, end of verse, chapter and story.


It’s looking like Profoto or Elinchrom or Broncolour right now. But if Profoto are packing it all in for small battery powered lights I’d have to cross them off my list, which leaves just Elinchrom and Broncolour.

Budget does not really matter, I’m looking for quality and reliability. But, I don’t have unlimited funds, I’m thinking £500 per head, plus cost for stands and softboxes etc.

Yes, Diving Pete, studio only, doubt I’d use it on a portable basis to be honest.
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It would be interesting to know where all the various makes are actually made. I would suggest that China is probably at least a part source of all of them.
I see that units at least badged as Bowens are still being supplied.
 
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Terrywoodenpic said:
It would e interesting to know wher all the various makes are actualy made. I would suggest that China is probably at least a part source of all of them.
I see that units at least badged as Bowens are still being supplied.
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I think Wex bought the name and are now selling the Bowens units that were 100% Chinese as the manufacturer could restart production, whereas the british made gear is unavailable as the factory closed.

As for China - like I said, you'd have to try really really hard to avoid any Chinese components in anything more complex than a thimble in 2019.
 
I agree with pretty much all you are saying, Phil, which probably explains why everything is so crap and unreliable these days. Seriously, there is no denying that stuff made in China is generally crap and unreliable. This is a cold fact of life. Nikon and Canon pro lenses and cameras are made in Japan for a reason, the budget stuff is kicked out elsewhere, Taiwan or China. Yes, my iPhone is assembled in China, I can't avoid that but I doubt many components in BMW and Audi and VW cars come from that part of the world. If I can avoid China, I will, and it looks like I can here by going Profoto or Elinchrom. Don't mind the price, you get what you pay for.
 
CreativeWriter said:
If I can avoid China, I will, and it looks like I can here by going Profoto or Elinchrom. Don't mind the price, you get what you pay for.
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Profoto's made in China AFAIK and Elinchrom is India, even good old English Bowens is actually China.

Broncolor is your best bet to avoid Asia and go for the highest standards but it's nonsensical to avoid products from China when you have zero understanding about how they're actually made and I don't understand why you asked about equipment to immediately rule out 90% of it because it's made in a certain place.
 
CreativeWriter said:
I agree with pretty much all you are saying, Phil, which probably explains why everything is so crap and unreliable these days. Seriously, there is no denying that stuff made in China is generally crap and unreliable. This is a cold fact of life. Nikon and Canon pro lenses and cameras are made in Japan for a reason, the budget stuff is kicked out elsewhere, Taiwan or China. Yes, my iPhone is assembled in China, I can't avoid that but I doubt many components in BMW and Audi and VW cars come from that part of the world. If I can avoid China, I will, and it looks like I can here by going Profoto or Elinchrom. Don't mind the price, you get what you pay for.
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That’s a sweeping generalisation that isn’t strictly true. It all depends on where in China, what type of factory, what quality assurance is done, what quality materials are used etc.

When I worked for an importing company all our QA was done in the UK and requirements sent back to China, then they made products to our spec and quality based on our choice using materials that matched the budgets of our clients.

I’d look at retailers for squeezing profit margins and the huge cost of producing in the West before blaming the Chinese factories for crap quality.
 
With regard to the Chinese thing, I'm going by years of experience across many products, in and out of photography, and even today the general consensus is that Chinese produced stuff is inferior. Anyway, it's my choice and I'm sticking by it. End of. I've seen many YouTube reviews by reputable reviewers who have critisised Nikon lenses for being made in China, and a whole ton other stuff.

But, this is not the discussion I entered here for. I'll always try and avoid Chinese made tat and go for quality stuff from Japan, Germany, UK, USA etc first and foremost. Will be phoning Flash Centre tomorrow to find out where Elinchrom is made. At the end of the day, if I have no choice (like my iPhone, yes, I was annoyed when Apple went cheap and starting having them made there) I'll have to go for it. On the Apple thing, the year they shifted production to China, their prices went up 14 per cent, go figure. They shift production to China to save a bunch of money, sacrificing quality in the process, then have the cheek to increase the prices so they don't pass the savings onto the customer, they pass an inferior product onto the customer at an even more inflated price out of greed and profit and with no interest in quality anymore.
 
CreativeWriter said:
With regard to the Chinese thing, I'm going by years of experience across many products, in and out of photography, and even today the general consensus is that Chinese produced stuff is inferior.
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You've already said you're 30 years out of date and what general consensus are you talking about? You're certainly not talking about the one here, from people who actually use the equipment.

How your phone was made, how your car was made has no bearing on how the lighting equipment is made, as one of the other posters points out there are varying standards to which equipment is made even if it's the same country. I know a few Profoto products which aren't to be relied on, I know a few Profoto products which have have been very reliable, do you think that means Profoto is good or bad?

It's your time and money, if you don't want to touch anything from China cool more power to you but do understand that's a preference based on no actual facts.

CreativeWriter said:
Will be phoning Flash Centre tomorrow to find out where Elinchrom is made.
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India like I already told you.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Some of the high end Elinchrom stuff is made in Switzerland.
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Which? D-lite and BRX aren't, ELC Pro HD has a 'Swiss design' sticker so that's presumably Asian too.

That just leaves the ELB 400/500/1200, I don't know where they're made but as they're battery units I'm guessing they wouldn't be the ops first choice.
 
CreativeWriter said:
Yes, my iPhone is assembled in China, I can't avoid that but I doubt many components in BMW and Audi and VW cars come from that part of the world.
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You’d be wrong in your assumption; as I said originally ‘you’d be surprised’.

20 years ago your sweeping generalisations about China would have been correct, 10 years ago, they’d have had merit, in 2019, you’re simply wrong.

Anyway you have your answer, if you want something wholly made in Europe, broncolor is your best bet.

The rest of us will carry on buying much better technology for much less money.
 
Wow, Elinchrom selling out too, what's the world coming too.
 
The chinese have been making superior quality items alongside tat for thousands of years.
They cover every market and customer requirement.
Many importers go for profit rather than quality, you get exactly what you pay for.
Top qualitey chinese products are as good as any in the world.

Trump's assult on Huawei will drive them to dump American sourced components and software and make their own alternatives. As we have seen in every other example they will soon overtake both the design and effectiveness in those areas as well. Which will be a direct and major loss to the USA. And further competition in world markets.

China has far greater cash resources than America as it has no nation debt and has almost unlimited reserves. so it can invest in what ever is necessary.
 
Phil V said:
20 years ago your sweeping generalisations about China would have been correct, 10 years ago, they’d have had merit, in 2019, you’re simply wrong.
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Out of curiosity (not challenging you) how do you know that when you say, 'You're simply wrong'? I hear a lot of people say, 'It's not like that anymore' regarding China producing inferior and unreliable products, but that's just what a lot of folk say, they have no merit or actual proof of this. I think a few people spread a rumour and then before you know it more and more people are saying this but unless you'd been to a factory in China and studied the manufacturing process personally then done the same with a superior factory somewhere in Europe, really? How do you know for sure? It's not convincing me to suddenly change my lifetime's tune, somebody telling me on a forum when there is so much 'proper' proof to the contrary out there.

I worked in Hi-Fi for a little while and the company, Arcam, were once making stuff in Cambridge and just four years ago they moved manufacturing to a Chinese plant stating it was state of the art, from that moment on the Hi-Fi shop I was working as a 'consultant' for on a part time basis suddenly started getting loads of their stuff back as it was constantly going wrong.

Another example, REL subwoofers, once made in Wales, up until about 6 years ago, then, yup, their subs started getting returned due to faults and dodgy welding and PCBs.

There is a well-known and knowlegable photography guy on YouTube who has stated, time and again, in recent years about Nikon's Chinese made lenses developing focusing and zoom ring sticking and failing issues, that 'never' happen with the Jap made stuff.

I really could pull out about 25 more 'recent' examples of poor products coming from China so I, for one, won't be seeing their products through rose-tinted spectacles anytime soon. Like I said, if I have absolutely no option and it's a choice between lighting a hell of a lot of candles or using a Chinese-made product, then yes, I'll go for it.

But, a pig is, most of these companies choose to 'use' China and India and other such countries for their cheep slave labour prices, yet their prices to the customer in Western Europe continue to rise, they never pass on such savings and they continue to exploit other countries and rip us off – that's part of my refusal to buy such products also, on principle.

Ok, so now I've got that off my chest, if all this 'crap' is made in China, which is the pick of a bad choice? This Godox stuff? I like the idea of buying lighting kit that I can make a phone call and the next day a replacement flash tube arrives in the post, or a phone number in the UK where I can phone for tech and other support.
 
CreativeWriter said:
Wow, Elinchrom selling out too, what's the world coming too.
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Just like the UK was in the 18 century, China has become the leading workshop to the world.
It holds that position because of its highly educaded workforce and scientific and engineering innovation and low cost of capital and labour. It also has the enviable prospect of stability and long term planning, neither of which can be found in the west.

To some extent this is also true of India, but only really lacks the stability, so is always one step behind.

China's major competitor in the hitec market place is Korea not America.
However America is the major player in social media in the west.
Though it is a toss up whether Amazon or Alibaba has a bigger share of world markets. As Amazon is mainly retail oriented. While Alibaba covers both retail, manufacturing and commercial supply.
 
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CreativeWriter said:
Out of curiosity (not challenging you) how do you know that when you say, 'You're simply wrong'?
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It was in response to your statement re Chinese components in German cars.

As for the HiFi examples, as above, manufacturers have the choice of specs and will often ‘go cheaper’ at the same time as moving production.

Apple products prove that you can make stuff in China just as well as you can anywhere else. The latest iPhone has no greater failure rate than the original. But it’s not cheap.
 
Phil V said:
It was in response to your statement re Chinese components in German cars.

As for the HiFi examples, as above, manufacturers have the choice of specs and will often ‘go cheaper’ at the same time as moving production.

Apple products prove that you can make stuff in China just as well as you can anywhere else. The latest iPhone has no greater failure rate than the original. But it’s not cheap.
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That makes sense.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
Trump's assult on Huawei will drive them to dump American sourced components and software and make their own alternatives. As we have seen in every other example they will soon overtake both the design and effectiveness in those areas as well. Which will be a direct and major loss to the USA. And further competition in world markets.
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I think you severely underestimate how high a hurdle software design is, there's a reason we're effectively stuck with just Android and iOS.
 
Ok, back to the topic of 'lighting' equipment for studio. Just having a quick look on the Lencarta and WEX sites, the Elinchrom stuff is coming out much cheaper than Godox stuff. A 3-head kit made up of three BRX500 lights with softboxes, stands, the lot is £1,699 on WEX, the Godox equivelent is over 2K.

https://www.wexphotovideo.com/elinchrom-brx-three-head-kit-500-500-500-1593876/

I chatted to an adviser on the phone just now at a well-known English retailer (who sell most lighting brands) and he seemed knowledgeable giving some fine detail that I did not know about. Although he did not say anything bad about Godox, in fact he said they are 'pretty decent' and that Godox make the Bowens lights now, be it to 'Bowens' high standards. But basically he said Broncolour are the industry leader and Elinchrom are the 'go to' manufacturer. He said Elinchrom have great power and colour accuracy and update the technology of their equipment, whereas Bowens have not really updated much and are still using old design, which is probably why Bowens are still reliable. He said Elinchrom are reliable and still the 'go to' company. He said unless you can justify Broncolour prices, go for Elinchrom. Regarding Profoto I was advised that because the flash tubes are set way back in the head if you have a long strip softbox the light might not hit the edges as the tube being set so far back gives a more directional light and the evenness across the front of the softbox might not be up to that of other brands.
 
Phil V said:
It was in response to your statement re Chinese components in German cars.

As for the HiFi examples, as above, manufacturers have the choice of specs and will often ‘go cheaper’ at the same time as moving production.

Apple products prove that you can make stuff in China just as well as you can anywhere else. The latest iPhone has no greater failure rate than the original. But it’s not cheap.
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The Fuji X-T3 is also made in China, it was a controversial move by them as all of their previous flagship cameras were made in Japan. I don't hear anyone complaining about the build quality of the T3! I predict that within a decade Chinese lens manufacturers will not be the filler option as many see them now, but direct competitors to the leading brands. They already have them on their toes. Same goes for flash units.
 
CreativeWriter said:
A 3-head kit made up of three BRX500 lights with softboxes, stands, the lot is £1,699 on WEX, the Godox equivelent is over 2K.
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Really? This Godox 600Ws head is £270:
https://www.essentialphoto.co.uk/pr...tudio-flash-head-with-2-point-4-ghz-receiver/
The BRX500 is £409 at Wex.

In my limited experience the current Godox stuff is more reliable than Elinchrom, and the flash tubes a hell of a lot cheaper.

Disclosure: I deeply dislike the Elinchrom modifier mount. That'd be enough to put me off on it's own.
 
CreativeWriter said:
This will be for a small studio doing portrait shoots, head and shoulders and full-length.
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One last point worth considering - you're unlikely to need 500Ws heads for that kind of setup if your studio can get a reasonable blackout. 200Ws would be fine - and if you do need to bump the ISO a little then that's hardly a problem with modern cameras.

The Lencarta smartflash heads are something like £130 each - about the same price as a replacement tube for a BRX500.
 
CreativeWriter said:
Ok, back to the topic of 'lighting' equipment for studio. Just having a quick look on the Lencarta and WEX sites, the Elinchrom stuff is coming out much cheaper than Godox stuff. A 3-head kit made up of three BRX500 lights with softboxes, stands, the lot is £1,699 on WEX, the Godox equivelent is over 2K.
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No you're comparing the wrong products, which kit are you looking at with Lencarta? https://www.essentialphoto.co.uk/pr...ead-kit-with-trigger-and-receivers-600600600/ would seem comparable to a BRX setup, closer to half price than not and the Elinchrom softboxes are small so I'm not sure how useful you'll find them. Figure out the correct heads and then spec the kit around it.

CreativeWriter said:
But basically he said Broncolour are the industry leader and Elinchrom are the 'go to' manufacturer. He said Elinchrom have great power and colour accuracy and update the technology of their equipment, whereas Bowens have not really updated much and are still using old design, which is probably why Bowens are still reliable.
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Ah well if they're the go to manufacturer that's alright then. As I told you above Elinchrom heads are fairly dated designs besides the ELC Pro HD but I've yet to talk to anyone who actually likes them.

Bowens went out of business because they ran the company so poorly for so long, go back to the 90's and they had some solid kit but that was decades ago. No one can really tell you how reliable the new Bowens kit is as there aren't very many people using them.

CreativeWriter said:
He said Elinchrom are reliable and still the 'go to' company. He said unless you can justify Broncolour prices, go for Elinchrom. Regarding Profoto I was advised that because the flash tubes are set way back in the head if you have a long strip softbox the light might not hit the edges as the tube being set so far back gives a more directional light and the evenness across the front of the softbox might not be up to that of other brands.
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Profoto still make exposed flash tube heads just not for their monoblocks but the problem with filling a long strip is most often down to the strip design rather than the head, same reason some of the largest softboxes tend to be indirect designs as they can't get even output otherwise.
 
CreativeWriter said:
Not sure what that Kino thing is, but I have these prices:

https://www.lencarta.com/godox/ad600-pro-godox-witstro-fla036?sort=p.price&order=DESC

and

https://www.lencarta.com/godox/godox-ad400pro-flash-head-fla041?sort=p.price&order=DESC

They are £608 and £799 just for the head, that’s way more then Elinchrom.
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The AD600/AD400 Pro are both battery powered units, they're like buying Elinchrom's ELB 500 https://www.wexphotovideo.com/elinchrom-elb-500-ttl-to-go-set-1656019/ which is £1500. They're also higher spec than a BRX probably higher spec than Elinchrom's top monoblock (the ELC Pro HD) but it's not a like for like comparison and you shouldn't compare them that way.

As I said above, figure out your head first before comparing kits.
 
simonbarker said:
I think you severely underestimate how high a hurdle software design is, there's a reason we're effectively stuck with just Android and iOS.
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That is true though Linux has taken the lions share or operating systems for servers, and various of its forms are available for PC use.
When it comes to phones The usual rules do not seem to apply with google Android which is similar to Linux having perhaps the largest share.
Huawei and Korean Samsung have been working on their own operating systems for many years so as to limit their reliance on Android OS.
Huawei will now release their own system (Hong Meng) ARC os later this month, when the American ban comes into force. It supports all native Android Apps and will have its own App gallery for them. it is reported that recompiled Android apps will have a 60% performance boost over the native versions. But that will obviously take time and effort by the suppliers. But we are talking about the second largest phone supplier in the world after Samsung, so some effort would be worth it.

Interestingly the ARC os will also run on PC's and other devices. Also few people are aware that Samsung has been developing its own TIZEN OS for some time and which is used on some of its phones already.
This latest American ban could signal the steady demise of Android in large parts of the world. which would be a major financial blow to Google and the USA.
In that way the American ban will prove to be Highly counter productive in the long run.

At the moment all Chinese and Korean phones are capable of running Android, but that may not continue to be the case after further developments.
 
Back to the car analogy, European flash units are like 1970’s British cars and the Chinese ones are like Japanese cars - better specced and cheaper.
Elinchrom is just old tech, not put together brilliantly and overpriced.
Godox is better spec, put together just as well and cheaper.
It’s only a matter of time before Elinchrom follow Bowens.
 
It would appear that I have more research on this, especially given my dated knowledge. So thanks guys for the input.

What is Kino 2? The reason I'm getting confused is they don't appear to say Godox anywhere? and, being an ex video producer Kino Flo were are a video tube light brand.
 
CreativeWriter said:
It would appear that I have more research on this, especially given my dated knowledge. So thanks guys for the input.

What is Kino 2? The reason I'm getting confused is they don't appear to say Godox anywhere? and, being an ex video producer Kino Flo were are a video tube light brand.
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The Pixapro Kino 600 2 is actually a Godox QS 600 II, Godox rebrands their equipment for larger retailers like Pixapro (Essential Photo), Adorama etc. They have an explanation here: https://www.essentialphoto.co.uk/blog/post/godox/

Godox don't directly sell overseas, when you buy one of their products you're buying an import so it's important to choose a company you can rely on for the warranty as trying to claim through Godox is a waste of time and money. That's why we recommend companies like Lencarta, Essential Photo, Photomart etc because they're established and reliable.
 
What 'fitting' do the Kino (Godox) use, can I fit Elinchrom softboxes to it, i.e. is it the same bayonet fitting as Elinchrom or something else?
 
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