Tech Debate II: Getting the Shot.

[DemiLion]

As per the title, less technical and more artistic this week. This is mainly about composition rather than exposure.

How do you frame the shot, how much do you crop in, where do you position yourself in relation to the action?

What focal length do you use in relation to subject distance and size?

What do you consider a good keeper rate; ie number of shots taken v number usable (technically) v number worth publishing/submitting?

Optional Extra: For your sport what sells (and who to); ie which are the crucial, must have images from a match/meeting/event?

There are plenty of other points that could be thrown in here, but these are a few starters!

 

[KIPAX]

How do you frame the shot, how much do you crop in, where do you position yourself in relation to the action?

I use prime lens thus most of my framing is done P-P with crop

As for position? doesnt that rather depend on the sport?

What focal length do you use in relation to subject distance and size?

90% of sports are played in a large area.. using primes you pick the ones that will cover said area..

What do you consider a good keeper rate; ie number of shots taken v number usable (technically) v number worth publishing/submitting?

OK first off I strongly believe far too many people are hung up on keeper rate.. it hold no value whatsoever.. the pictures you keep are important not the ones you throw away....
However to try and answer.. it rather depends on what I am shooting.. my football keeper rate is good but indoor sport shooting primary school kids might be lower... If I am shooting for a paper only its maybe one in a hundred because thats all they use but for a gallery i keep more..

I throw away a lot of perfectly good pictures... player A runnign towards me I may get three times in a match but I only need one of so the other two get dunped even if they are tachincally perfect

Sorry not a big fan of keeper rate questions...

 

[CT]

I shudder to think what my keeper rate is with birds, but it wont be good!

 

[DemiLion]

Sorry not a big fan of keeper rate questions...

I understand that, and to a certain extent I agree. However if these threads work out, they're intended to be a learning resource.

When I first started one of the biggest dishearteners for me was the number of unusable shots that I had, if you include all the missed focus, boring subjects and duplicates etc. It took a long time to realise that most other people were getting the same thing.

Keeper rate can be a huge white elephant, but it's also a subject that gets fudged a lot by photographers, in the same way that a gamekeeper will never admit how many poults he puts down to achieve the annual bag.

I just thought that it was important to highlight the fact to anyone starting out that they shouldn't expect 100% success. For example of the 766 photographs that I took on Sunday I filtered down to 127 and subsequently submitted 36 (requirement 30-40 per match).

 

[Deleted member 29733]

How do you frame the shot, how much do you crop in, where do you position yourself in relation to the action?

As I am using the 70-200 2.8 at the moment obviously I cant get right up close to the action at the other end of the pitch, so if something happens I take the shot then when PP'ing I will zoom in and then crop. I know its not ideal, but if after PP'ing it looks crap than I will bin it.

As for position, I am lucky because I can go all around the pitch and am not confined to one area or end. A couple of times I have been on one side of the pitch and we have been attacking on the other flank and I have thought to myself 'There's a try coming' and I have gone over to the other side and got the try.

What focal length do you use in relation to subject distance and size?

I have 2 lenses that I use my Sigma 150-500mm for the summer months and my NIKON 70-200mm f/2.8 for the winter months when matches are played under lights and low light.

What do you consider a good keeper rate; ie number of shots taken v number usable (technically) v number worth publishing/submitting?

As I dont shoot for papers, only the clubs website - although some have got in the local papers - I usually submit around 30 shots.

I may take between 200 and 300 and may end up with 50-60 shots that I think are worth keeping and maybe more at times, say up to or over half of them, and will send 30 to the club.

 

[treeman]

I only shoot one sport, Polo, so not sure if this'll be helpful or not. I'm actually, this minute, in the process of sorting out the images for last years Club Book, so I’m in the right place for looking!

Last year I covered 78 matches, shot 13,182 images, about 20% of them were sideline and presentation shots, so averaging 135 action shots a match, of which I average 75 keepers. However I’ve probably only got about 30 images from the year that I think are worthy of going in my portfolio.

For crops I don’t think it matters too much if stuff, legs, tails etc get cropped as long as there’s some action going, to draw you away from the cropping.

Lens wise I use a 300mm 2.8 often with a 1.4 Convertor, and a second body with a 70-200 2.8. This season though I might get the 200-400mm as I think this will be the optimum lens for Polo. (need to find a buyer for my Kidney first). Personally I find the fixed prime can often be too short or too long, especially given that a Polo pitch is 3 times the size of a football pitch, it’s impossible to cover it all.

Position wise for maximum coverage, logically the middle is the best place, but it’s rarely where the action is. I shoot the first two Chukkas there just to make sure I’ve got a shot of all the players, then for the last two Chukkas, when they get a little desperate to score, I move down to just beside the goal. This is the best spot to get some good ‘ride off” action. It also gets the ticker pumping a tad faster as you have to hold your ground, as two or more horses galloping towards you at up to 35MPH. If you move, you’ll get hurt, badly!

Prince Harry's horse saw me, I'm not sure he did, as I felt his boot, as he brushed pass me!

 

[Deleted member 29733]

Prince Harry's horse saw me, I'm not sure he did, as I felt his boot, as he brushed pass me!

You name-dropper you.

Nice shot though.

 

[Pick]

I shoot football most of the time, so have to grab the action anyway i can.So sometimes have to crop heavily.Thank god for Photoshop, for alot of my shots look like the are on a hill.

 

[Rovers_Andy]

As per the title, less technical and more artistic this week. This is mainly about composition rather than exposure.

How do you frame the shot, how much do you crop in,where do you position yourself in relation to the action?

It depends what your shooting, who your shooting it for and what the backgrounds/lighting are like

What focal length do you use in relation to subject distance and size?

From 14mm to 650mm it depends on the perspective you want, i've taken individual player shots at 70mm and 650mm too much of an open ended question


What do you consider a good keeper rate; ie number of shots taken v number usable (technically) v number worth publishing/submitting?

Depends if your shooting at risk or on commission, if the game was a crap 0:0 or 4:3 with lots of action and goals/celes right down the barrel of your lens. When i shoot commissions i tend to submit more than when i'm shooting at risk

Optional Extra: For your sport what sells (and who to); ie which are the crucial, must have images from a match/meeting/event?

Depends who your shooting for


There are plenty of other points that could be thrown in here, but these are a few starters!

 

[hjwatso1]

How do you frame the shot, how much do you crop in, where do you position yourself in relation to the action?

It depends what your shooting, who you're shooting it for and what the backgrounds/lighting are like - copied from Andy

What focal length do you use in relation to subject distance and size?

I have anywhere between 18mm to 400mm I also have a 1.4 converter which I use from time to time. I use what is right for the sort of shot I'm trying to achieve and where that is in relation to me.

What do you consider a good keeper rate; ie number of shots taken v number usable (technically) v number worth publishing/submitting?

I'm like Kipax, I don't care on keeper rate, what I care about is getting "the shot". Whether that's the goal, the celebration or the story. All of my other shots can be poorly framed and out of focus, just so long as I nail the ones that count.

As with Rovers_Andy, I submit more for commission then on spec, but yet again, all the shots tell the story. I also like to shoot a lot of individual stock shots which can come in useful later.

Optional Extra: For your sport what sells (and who to); ie which are the crucial, must have images from a match/meeting/event?

Depends who the client is. If you are shooting for your local club... then it's your club. But who ever your client is, you must "TELL THE STORY" for them. If it's the glorious victory for your team/individual or the crushing defeat, you shoot that story. If you have no client you shoot the story of the game.

Hope that helps.

 

[cornishboy]

Never really sure what 'tell the story of the game' means in 1 or 2 images - can anyone explain to me - especially as the story could change during the game

 

[hjwatso1]

'tell the story of the game'

Is explaining thru your photographs what happened in the game. You don't assign a number of images to it.

If it's a football match which is a really physical 0-0 draw, then you have a series of images describing that battle. Tackle shots, players competing for the ball shots, visually describe what the journalists are going to write.

If Torres scores his first hatrick for Chelsea and they win 3-0, you want the shots of those goals and those celebrations and a happy smiling Torres and maybe some shots of the crowd celebrating with a Torres banner etc.

If Stevie Morrison scores for Millwall in the last minute of added on time to bring them level, then you want the shot of that goal and the celebration.

Why, because these are

the stories of the game

and our role is to illustrate that story.

The story could be the a managers first/last game at the club. A players first/last game at a club.

In terms of number of images... well, the agency ask for more than 10. I send more than 10 that tell the story.

I'm sorry I can't quantify it, but there is no magic number. I had a poor game at Palace the other week, I sent thru 15 images, 5 or 6 were shots of the ground and crowd as chuff all happened.

 

[hjwatso1]

If it takes 20 shots to tell the story, so be it.... your not the one that has to choose what picture to publish. Someone else doe that, but you have to give the the pictures that bests illustrates it.

 

[cornishboy]

So in the arsenal v Newcastel 4-4 the story is the comeback so you would submit the newcastle celebrations and goals as the comeback becomes more likely? and forget all the good pics you took of the Arsenal goals?
I take it this also involves the photographer trying to judge what the story will be as the game progresses and taking photos to reflect this ?

 

[hjwatso1]

So in the arsenal v Newcastel 4-4 the story is the comeback so you would submit the newcastle celebrations and goals as the comeback becomes more likely and forget all the good pics you took of the Arsenal goals?

Yes, the story is the Newcastle come back. However, as I have to wire in game, I would have submitted all 8 goals and celebrations. After each goal, I wire 2 or 3 shots off as soon as possible. When that equaliser went in and the full time whistle went the Arsenal goals have less value than the Newcastle goals and the Newcastle goals are more likely to get published. But the point here is that you captured that story by having the come back.

I take it this also involves the photographer trying to judge what the story will be as the game progresses and taking photos to reflect this ?

Yup. My toughest decisions every Saturday is what end to sit and do I swap ends at half time. Sometimes it works beautifully, others, it goes horribly wrong.

I did a Millwall v Norwich game, I have a great goal and celebrations shot for Norwich, the best celebration I have ever taken... Thought I nailed it. 3 mins in to added on time, Stevie M of Millwall bangs home the late equaliser down at the other end of the pitch I see nothing but a poor celebration. That was it, I knew I had nothing, not much you can do about it... for 30 mins I thought I had it in the bag then what I have is worthless because of that Stevie M. It's the nature of the what we do. One week, I'll have that equaliser

 

[paulroberts]

How do you frame the shot, how much do you crop in, where do you position yourself in relation to the action?

This is the ultimate question, generally the framing is done in the crop during PP, but, more recently I've been visualising the shot I want as much as I can prior to a game. The idea is, rather than pitching up and shooting everything that moves with 10fps, to get a portfolio keeper from each match using short primes instead of zooms (105mm) this dictates my position. I'll position level with the 6 yard line if I can, left the big glass at home and focus on stuff in and around the box.

What do you consider a good keeper rate; ie number of shots taken v number usable (technically) v number worth publishing/submitting?

I'll submit anything from 10 to 35 images, depending on the story of the match, but will often have a huge amount more that have everything except faces/the ball/ the impact or a combination of those

Optional Extra: For your sport what sells (and who to); ie which are the crucial, must have images from a match/meeting/event?

For football, its the usual suspects, National papers, a few big regionals, and some european magazines. Always one of the following - goals, celes or impact shots, different papers have different priorities on those. I always try to add in something different as well, dejection, fan reaction, manager incidents starting to approch games more as a documentary photographer than a pure sports photographer.

There are plenty of other points that could be thrown in here, but these are a few starters!

I think the main things I've always been taught about composing the image are, Don't crop too square, or too tight, STRAIGHT HORIZONS (that one has been shouted at me before) and look for the unusual (Using the eye mounted in the back of your head)

 

[Boggy]

Yes, the story is the Newcastle come back. However, as I have to wire in game, I would have submitted all 8 goals and celebrations. After each goal, I wire 2 or 3 shots off as soon as possible. When that equaliser went in and the full time whistle went the Arsenal goals have less value than the Newcastle goals and the Newcastle goals are more likely to get published. But the point here is that you captured that story by having the come back.



Yup. My toughest decisions every Saturday is what end to sit and do I swap ends at half time. Sometimes it works beautifully, others, it goes horribly wrong.

I did a Millwall v Norwich game, I have a great goal and celebrations shot for Norwich, the best celebration I have ever taken... Thought I nailed it. 3 mins in to added on time, Stevie M of Millwall bangs home the late equaliser down at the other end of the pitch I see nothing but a poor celebration. That was it, I knew I had nothing, not much you can do about it... for 30 mins I thought I had it in the bag then what I have is worthless because of that Stevie M. It's the nature of the what we do. One week, I'll have that equaliser

But you can make the most of "being at the wrong end" with other stuff ie whats the keeper doing when the goal goes in (think David James in that pink top at last years FA Cup semi final) managers reaction (look at Wenger's reaction when that goal went in, somebody has it!) and remember which set of fans your in front off, happy/sad. Again the emotion is just as important in any reaction not just a cele shot. It also gives the chance of the story from both sides, Newcastle comeback or Arsenal throw it away.

 

[KIPAX]

I dont think there is a wrong end.. If you have a 400 and a short lens you should be able to cover both... some of my best shots are with the 400 when the players celebrate.. certainly goalmouth action can be good when you ahve the goal framed

 

[paulroberts]

I dont think there is a wrong end.. If you have a 400 and a short lens you should be able to cover both... some of my best shots are with the 400 when the players celebrate.. certainly goalmouth action can be good when you ahve the goal framed

You're right there Tony and I've seen some great images with the goal framed previously, but oddly not so much this season or over the last 18 months, the nationals seem to be favouring goal shots at 'the right' end lately.

Although I'm sure this weekend I'll be proved wrong and we'll see a plethora of shots on the 400.

 

[Tobers]

I keep 100% of my good shots.