Tech Debate: Low Light.

DemiLion

DemiLion

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Mark
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Following on from last week's thread the suggested topic to kick this off with was Low Light Photography in Sport.

How do you deal with it both in camera (High ISO NR, ETTR etc) and in PP?

Obviously the level of kit that you use will have a great deal of bearing on this, so it will be interesting to see how people deal with the problem in varying ways.
 
My motto is...'If I can see it, I can Photograph it'.

I don't understand people (some in here) who say they will give up when they are forced to go down to a certain shutter speed.

Equipment is a big issue. However I photogrpah at the same grounds I did with the camera in my avatar an olympus bridge.. Also for many years a canon 10d with a sigma 70-200 .. I got pictures with everything I have used... The quality and hit rate changes as does the amount of PP.. but I have never come away wiht nothing.. The moral of the story is.. Don't give up. especialy don't give up before you even give it a go.

To answer your question.. The equipment I have now means my keeper rate is higher and I dont have to do as much PP

I do a lot of badly lit flodlight stadiums and poorly lit sports halls... As do many others in here of course.. I am open to anything anyone wants to ask.. hopefully specific questions?
 
Do clients ever mention noise - as in

"that photo is grainy".

Does noise matter if the composition is good and it's in focus?

Also what do people use here for noise reduction?
 
Nailing the exposure is critical in low light IMHO, any underexposure will tend to push up the noise. My choice of NR is Noiseware pro.
 
bigrob said:
Do clients ever mention noise - as in

"that photo is grainy".

Does noise matter if the composition is good and it's in focus?

Also what do people use here for noise reduction?
Click to expand...

Nobody complains as prints make noise magically dissapear anyway.. try printing a grainy pic out and it does a fantastic job of losing noise:) As for files... well picture editors know the score and know what to expect

My noise reductuion.. I use photoshops Dust/SCratches tool on '1' or '2' if really bad... then resize then sharpen..
 
swanseamale47 said:
Nailing the exposure is critical in low light IMHO, any underexposure will tend to push up the noise. My choice of NR is Noiseware pro.
Click to expand...

In bad light I always over expose by a min 1/3rd stop and maybe more depending on how bad the ligthing is
 
Only covered paintball and local football, have learnt from experience that high ISO has to be used sometimes just to get the shutter speed you need to capture the action, but with the kit I have, I get noise, sometimes too much to consider the shots of suitable quality (in my eyes anyway). As Wayne said above, you have to get the exposure bang on, as trying to process the image to rescue it just increases the noise.

My next camera will be one that has less noise at higher ISO, which is a step in the right direction to solve the problem I hope. Fast glass is also a winner.
 
It's not just about noise, but about the cameras ability to maintain dynamic range when the iso is pumped up. Noise, as mentioned, is almost irrelevant in print, but a flat picture is still flat.
 
FILL THE FRAME.. is another top tip for low light photogrpahy.. dont shoot something distance then try to crop... take less pics if need be but wait for the action to fill the frame... reducing the size of a picture is the best way to lose noise.. so the more full the frame the more pixels you have to play with.
 
The23rdman said:
It's not just about noise, but about the cameras ability to maintain dynamic range when the iso is pumped up. Noise, as mentioned, is almost irrelevant in print, but a flat picture is still flat.
Click to expand...


Agree!
 
KIPAX said:
....The equipment I have now means my keeper rate is higher and I dont have to do as much PP
Click to expand...

I have to agree, since I got my D300s and the Nikon 70-200 f/2.8 I have more keepers and less PP'ing.

swanseamale47 said:
.... My choice of NR is Noiseware pro.
Click to expand...

Thats what I use, well try to. But I was advised by Gary Coyle to turn off the high ISO noise reduction in camera and don't use a noise reducing programme. Gary's quote:

"I would suggest turning off in camera noise reduction and dont use any in post either, it does look horrible and can be clearly seen in the attacking players face and on the grass's focal plane, yuk".



KIPAX said:
In bad light I always over expose by a min 1/3rd stop and maybe more depending on how bad the ligthing is
Click to expand...

This advice was also given to me by Gary Coyle: "Noise is OK Martin and the d300s copes well with it, i would have also tried over exposing by a third of a stop as well which would have helped with the noise, your exposure looks like it will easily handle it and the 1000th ss certainally will."

KIPAX said:
FILL THE FRAME.. is another top tip for low light photogrpahy.. dont shoot something distance then try to crop... take less pics if need be but wait for the action to fill the frame... reducing the size of a picture is the best way to lose noise.. so the more full the frame the more pixels you have to play with.
Click to expand...

I am a sucker for shooting something the other side/end of the pitch and then cropping it. It is something I have got to stop doing.
 
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If shooting in low light forces you to use a slowish shutter speed, lets say 1/250th to 1/500th then try to shoot your intended subject coming head on straight at you, this minimises motion blur and will get you keepers which you wouldnt have gotten if you shot your subject running accross you.
 
Have to agree with Kipax and ramp up the ISO to get the picture. I use LR3 mainly for noise reduction, but use it sparingly as not to make the subject too soft.
I also now turn off 'in camera high ISO noise reduction' and let LR3 or Noiseware Pro deal with it.
In low light how do you guys meter?, I currently spot meter off the grass and shoot in manual with a slight over exposure if I can. Is this correct or is there a better way?
 
Sgt_Bilko99 said:
In low light how do you guys meter?, I currently spot meter off the grass and shoot in manual with a slight over exposure if I can. Is this correct or is there a better way?
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To be honest theres not a lot to meter is there.. You know the iso, you know the aperture.. you can take a rough guess at the shutter... i tend to take a couple of shots then check the histogram and the screen... adjust accordingly.. Meter off grass if you havent got a starting point but generaly you should already have an idea.. or am I just too used to it?:)
 
OK, turn NR off or hit it on low but I simply can't use NR Software prior to transmitting images in. Its too hit and miss and makes the skin tones look un-natural.
I would love to have the time to do loads of work in post, but its as simple as this for me (Normally).

1. f2.8 + 1/640th if possible (on the 400)
2. Meter correctly from the grass in front of me to get the iso.
3. Dial in +0.3 EV
4. Make sure D-Lighting is off (or Equiv for Canon)
5. Don't crop in more than 1/2 a frame.
6. In Photoshop - Levels, Curves (for contrast) and a tiny amount of USM
 
I have found to trust my camera more, was always worried about pushing the iso, ram it higher (ooer!) and get the exposure and it works, sometimes. My shots have improved and I worry less, faster glass always helps and I chuckle now when I read new posts about why people cant get the shots with their kit lens.

PP is my worse nightmare, I ruin most of my work by overdoing things, can't wait for that topic ;)

Equipment gets you so far, knowledge that bit further. That's why this place is a second home.
 
paulroberts said:
1. f2.8 + 1/640th if possible (on the 400)
Click to expand...

For me this is the biggest bone of contention when talking low light... I have certain shutter speeds I am happy with.. But if needs must I will go below... I never advise a shutter speed unless someone has exact same setup as me.. even then would they shoot same as me?

On my 400 yes i agree.. dont like to go below but will do 500.. however any lower and its time to change lens or approach

On my 300 I can get shots all night at 320 shutter.. I would rather it was higher but if i must 320 works... I have also shot at 200 and 250 and stil got soemthing decent... I will go to 160 if I put IS on and resort to pre emptive photography like I had to with the 10d for yrs :) But as with the 400.. if I am going below 320 then time to change approach


I have been to grounds so dark that I cant get anyhting on a 300 f2.8 and i dont want to go 12800 iso... I am talking so dark that the high iso isnt going to help,.....So then its sit along the goal line using my 135 prime set at f2 and iso 8000 maybe.... If you cant get anything with those settings then look upwards.. someone turned the floodlights off :)
 
WB
I dont set WB outdoors at football.. never needed to at any level under any floodlights...

Indoors I am now in a habit of setting it all the time.. the difference between set and not at most indoor places is massive... Its simple to do.. makes a big difference and only has one drawback...remembering to set it back to auto when you leave :)
 
paulroberts said:
OK, turn NR off or hit it on low but I simply can't use NR Software prior to transmitting images in. Its too hit and miss and makes the skin tones look un-natural.
I would love to have the time to do loads of work in post, but its as simple as this for me (Normally).

1. f2.8 + 1/640th if possible (on the 400)
2. Meter correctly from the grass in front of me to get the iso.
3. Dial in +0.3 EV
4. Make sure D-Lighting is off (or Equiv for Canon)
5. Don't crop in more than 1/2 a frame.
6. In Photoshop - Levels, Curves (for contrast) and a tiny amount of USM
Click to expand...

Paul I just did a search and apparently the Canon equivalent of D-Lighting is Auto Lighting Optimizer (ALO).

I have never seen a seting for it on my Mk 3 though.
----------

n.b. great thread this - lots of handy tips all in one place.
 
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Active D Lighting on a Nikon is great for pulling out details in dark shadows in low ISO situations but dont use it at 2000 ISO or above as by its very nature it introduces noise
 
I think it's only on the 1D Mk IV.
 
Sorry Mark - I wasn't clear.

I was meaning on the 1D bodies. Thanks for clearing it up though.
 
Yup, but seeing as this thread is designed for all equipment levels, I was just adding a subnote! :D
 
Gary Coyle said:
Active D Lighting on a Nikon is great for pulling out details in dark shadows in low ISO situations but dont use it at 2000 ISO or above as by its very nature it introduces noise
Click to expand...

Never said that in the manual, thanks Gary (y)
 
KIPAX said:
WB
I dont set WB outdoors at football.. never needed to at any level under any floodlights...

Indoors I am now in a habit of setting it all the time.. the difference between set and not at most indoor places is massive... Its simple to do.. makes a big difference and only has one drawback...remembering to set it back to auto when you leave :)
Click to expand...

I think this depends on your set up. On Nikon I can't auto WB under floods, the results are just awful. Obviously its much better with Canon, or are you shooting Raw and doing it in PP?
 
Never shoot raw... wb is always good using auto under floodlights and believe me i do some poor grounds... I havent time to shoot raw... I have 4 full football matches and an evening presentation to do over sat/sun ... i have to get it as right as i can in camera ... not always perfect i must admit :)
 
KIPAX said:
Never shoot raw... wb is always good using auto under floodlights and believe me i do some poor grounds... I havent time to shoot raw... I have 4 full football matches and an evening presentation to do over sat/sun ... i have to get it as right as i can in camera ... not always perfect i must admit :)
Click to expand...

+1 to Canon then, attempt that on Nikon and its Cast-o-Rama.
 
He, he, it was a serious comment Tony, no really.

Ive owned both the D3 and D3'S so i know. the D3 was OK using AWB under lights but the D3's is much better, particularly if the light spread is consistent, i use AWB all the time now in any situation and never see the need to try and correct in post

Paul, heres a few links to floodlit games ive covered, i rarely if ever do any post processing other than crop, resize and add USM.

Old Trafford, Action stuff shot all shot with D3'S, Nikon 300mm f/2.8 and Nikon 1,4x extender, after match stuff with a D3'S and Tamron 28-75mm f/2.8

http://rlphotos.fotopic.net/c1903206.html

Headingley, all shot with D3'S, Nikon 300mm f/2.8 and Nikon 1,4x extender

http://rlphotos.fotopic.net/c1928760_1.html

Warrington, all shot with D3'S, Nikon 300mm f/2.8 and Nikon 1,4x extender

http://rlphotos.fotopic.net/c1824849.html

Featherstone. some of the worst lights in the country, a lot of these were shot at ISO 8,000 -10,000, some at f/4, some at f/2.8

http://rlphotos.fotopic.net/c1894570.html
 
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Phew - so many great shots there Gary.

I think we can conclude that the AWB works well on the D3s.

HOWEVER - I can't believe you chopped his toes off :bang:

http://rlphotos.fotopic.net/p67504762.html

What kind of Weekend Warrior are you :D:D
 
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I was only using 1 body that night with a 300mm and 1.4x so had to position myself so as best to be able to cover the full width of the field, could probably have done to move 5 metres to the right (ive always got an excuse) :D

Tony, should add my first comment seriously wasnt comparing Nikon to Canon but 1 Nikon model to another, honest.
 
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