THE CRITIQUE SANDPIT

Image 2 is a lovely natural shot. I think it would benefit from an increase in contrast and a portion cropped off at the bottom.
I think most of the improvements could have been done with the setup. The adult looking at their phone detracts so I would have tried to compose with the child on their own . I would have got down lower and tried to get the horizon more horizontal. Some fill in flash may have given some more impact on the child.
An endearing picture nevertheless.
Dave
 
I think that image 3 is not very well composed , the apes are not in a tight enough formation for a group shot imo, I would have concentrated more on the single ape in the centre of the picture , I think I would have probably used a little fill flash to highlight the facial features a bit more and to balance out the bright sunshine in the rest of the scene , having said all that about your image I must say that I am very new to photography and more experienced people than me may have completely different views about it

( I didn't really have anything positive to say about image 3 so tried to be as constructive as possible , sometimes I wish I got feedback like that)
 
Image 2 is a lovely natural shot. I think it would benefit from an increase in contrast and a portion cropped off at the bottom.
I think most of the improvements could have been done with the setup. The adult looking at their phone detracts so I would have tried to compose with the child on their own . I would have got down lower and tried to get the horizon more horizontal. Some fill in flash may have given some more impact on the child.
An endearing picture nevertheless.
Dave

Really like that critique Dave (y)
Not only some positive encouragement along with the honest thoughts but some really useful practical tips on what to do differently next time.

I think that image 3 is not very well composed , the apes are not in a tight enough formation for a group shot imo, I would have concentrated more on the single ape in the centre of the picture , I think I would have probably used a little fill flash to highlight the facial features a bit more and to balance out the bright sunshine in the rest of the scene , having said all that about your image I must say that I am very new to photography and more experienced people than me may have completely different views about it

( I didn't really have anything positive to say about image 3 so tried to be as constructive as possible , sometimes I wish I got feedback like that)

Nothing at all wrong with that John - if you can't find any positives there's no point in making them up, as long as the negative is kept constructive it still comes across well.
I think that's the measure of critique isn't it? Whether we'd be happy to have that sort of feedback on our own images.
 
OK then here goes ( sometimes I may something that I do not understand in photographic terms yet !)

Image 1
I love the content of the photo and the purity of the black and white tempered with the warmth of the flames, what I do find distracting is the candle right at the front out of focus and completely overwhelming the composition, I would like to see this candle moved back into focus, also if you are creating a reflective shot like this I would like to see the reflective surface spotlessly clean.

Image 2
Could have been a great shot of the child had the guy left his trainers a couple of metres further down the beach, the skyline looks all wrong as it is sloping, the shot is nice and sharp front to back.

Image 3
For me the primary subject in this shot is the monkey in the middle all else is a distraction, I really like the halo effect of the sun on it's fur and its eyes look sharp and in focus, I think I would crop the photo to have the monkey just right of centre but would maybe leave in the diagonal branch ? the depth of focus is nice.

Thanks for the chance to practise, it is easy to say great shot particularly when you do not have the knowledge or confidence to say what you really feel.
 
Image 1:

The front candle is clearly out of focus, and there is obviously no aesthetic reason why this should be intentional, so this shot needs to be retaken with a much smaller aperture (higher f number). It was taken f2.8, and even with the smaller sensor, and shorter focal length used in this case (I checked the EXIF), this will result in very shallow depth of field. Refer to the relevant section of my tutorial files here....

Everything you need to know about exposure theory but were afraid to ask 101.

The other thing that leaps out of the page is that the candles have been shot on a highly reflective surface, so the reflections of the candles are actually playing an important role in the image, yet the foremost candle has had it's reflection cropped off. This should have been shot much wider to also include the reflection, as cropping it off has added nothing to the shot in terms of it's intended meaning, or the information given... but it is something that people will notice as something "missing". Plus.. pulling back a bit and widening the shot out, would have made it easier to increase depth of field, as most lenses behave in the same way, that being the closer you focus, the shallower the depth of field. Take your time composing, and DON'T just look at the object you are shooting... look around the whole viewfinder as if you are looking at a photograph... pay attention to the WHOLE frame.

White balance is always subjective, but when we think of dark spaces being lit by candles, we associate it with warmth, cosiness... so perhaps warming this image up slightly will "speak" of that more.

The camera is obviously not straight. With a still life shot, there's no excuse for this.. you're not rushing, so as with the reflections.. look at the whole frame as if you were looking at someone else's image. If you struggle judging whether things are straight... use a small spirit level on top of your camera's hot shoe, or shoot a little looser, and straighten in post shoot (although getting it right in camera is far more desirable, as any cropping like this will lower quality).

Clean the reflective surface they're sat on... it's filthy! Yes, you can retouch... but which is best... 10 seconds with some Mr Sheen before placing the candles, or 30 minutes cloning out crap?

Placement is bothering me too. Why IS the front candle so much closer to cam than the others? There's a film maker's term known as "blocking" which refers to placement of people within the frame, as how that is relevant to the story. You've "blocked" the candles here to make me think the front one is somehow more important, or different. Any particular reason? If there is.. then perhaps the front candle should be sharp and the rest not? If there is no reason, then consider moving the front one back closer to it's brethren :)

Be careful with mirrors in high detail still life, as they will actually produce two reflections: One from the surface of the class, and one from the actual mirror surface... this makes the reflections in this type of "angled" shot have a double edged appearance. A highly polished chrome surface would be better as reflections would be sharper.

Those are the main issues... anything else technical is heading into pedantry most likely, and be one of those threads where others just chip in to show off their knowledge.


Ok.. that's technical crit....


Now.... the really contentious part, and the one that really gets people's knickers in a twist. The critical part of "crit"

What were you trying to achieve? If this was merely a technical exercise, then stop at the end of the technical crit. However, if this image was created with any intentions of it being a "creative" image, then you need to consider what the image says. This is where a great many amateurs and professionals start to disagree. "Why does it have to mean anything?".. well.. because all images say something, whether you intend them to or not.

If this was a commercial product shot for a candle company, this would never in a million years be commissioned.. no matter how technically perfect it was. Why? Because it's boring, and it merely shows me a bunch of candles. I know what candles look like, so why would I buy THESE candles over anyone else's? Think about why people these days would by such candles. While they're useful in a power cut... that's not the reason. They are meant to set a mood... be warm.. cosy... romantic.... so why place them in such a sterile space? Why not start thinking about the whole image in a wider context?

This is nothing to do with being an amateur, or a professional... this is about creating great, engaging, relevant and well crafted imagery. So if your response is "but I'm only an amateur.. I don't need to know all this arty-farty crap", perhaps you need to rethink how exactly you are going to improve if you set yourself such limitations. harsh? No.. practical. Being amateur does NOT mean being less than professional. I know many amateurs who are far in advance of professionals. So to raise this image from merely technicaly correct, but mundane into the realms of being superb in every way, start thinking about such things as context, meaning, mood, personality, relevance.

As an example... look at this still from Kubrick's 2001

http://i.imgur.com/nIT3KKp.jpg

It's not an important scene... it's the kind of scene that you'll probably not be paying a great deal of attention to during the film. However... what makes Kubrick and other talented director's so good is attention to detail in creating illusion, making you feel something's right... suspending disbelief. Look at it again. Look at how the peopel are put into context. Styling (futuristic - even today over 40 years since the film was made)... look at the little bits of stuff on teh walls... all sterile, utile... hard.. practical... it makes us think of a sterile, futuristic, scientific space... look at the colour grading... (cold)... again, sterile, scientific, technicall.. Even details like the floor is curved.. because this is a space station... there's no gravity in space... you're in free-fall... but spinning a space station shaped like a ring will use centrifugal force to simulate gravity.

Did you take any of that in when watching the film? Not consciously no.... but you will have just accepted it as reality without a moment's hesitation despite it being a studio set because of the richness of the scene, and the way everything is there for a reason and in context.

So... why not so the same for this shot of candles?

I'll just root around for some candle shots that use context well... meanwhile.. research "Mise en scene" :).


Part of critique should be to get the person learning to do some work themselves... active research helps you learn faster.... this is a proven, empirical fact.

So.... candles as festive adornment?

http://www.hdwallpapersinn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Christmas-Candle.jpg

Candles to create a relaxing mood?

http://www.eframe.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/28.jpg

Candles as part of a romantic setting?

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...TAyjkBb4BpWFUJzxfjBZww9I_69FkM0l8CMHhUBheqvKm


These are just random images off Google.... and I'm NOT using them as exemplar pieces of work... I'm demonstrating how other things in the scene alter the reading of the image, and you don't have to appreciate art, or have a degree to see this... this is something EVERYONE gets... which is why film directors, photographers, TV producers go to such great lengths to create their sets. So why should you, as an amateur photographer not do the same?


NOTE: This is an example of how I crit via written feedback... this is NOT intended to spark a debate. If you disagree, start a new thread, PM me, or jog on... thanks. Let's not ruin the thread.




Thanks
 
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Thanks for the chance to practise, it is easy to say great shot particularly when you do not have the knowledge or confidence to say what you really feel.

:) You're welcome.
It's really not that difficult is it? Just a couple of lines about what you like, don't like, what could be done better is so much more useful both for the poster and for yourself too.
 
Image 1:

The front candle is clearly out of focus, and there is obviously no aesthetic reason why this should be intentional, so this shot needs to be retaken with a much smaller aperture (higher f number). It was taken f2.8, and even with the smaller sensor, and shorter focal length used in this case (I checked the EXIF), this will result in very shallow depth of field. Refer to the relevant section of my tutorial files here....
<snipped for brevity>

David, Thank you for taking the time with that.

:notworthy: One of the best pieces of critique I've seen written on here and I hope people dropping into this thread can take something away from it in terms of how to look at a photo critically and how to express their thoughts about it.
Yes, doing something like that and doing it well takes time and effort and it's unrealistic to expect every poster to offer that much detail on every image . . . but if people could just go through that thought process in their heads and write a percentage of it in a reply then I think everyone would get a lot more out of the forums.

p.s. Good to see you back posting again :)
 
If it helps, I'm happy :)
 
Now that is what i call a great critique david, thoroughly enjoyable to read, no patronizing no arsyness and really does get you thinking!

I'm glad i was nosey now as i also found this http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/th...t-were-afraid-to-ask-101.440126/#post-5028323

I do shoot manual or av now mostly, but i can't say i really understand what i am doing and i'd like to (and feel more in control) so this is now my afternoon read.. thank you!(y)
 
:notworthy: One of the best pieces of critique I've seen written on here and I hope people dropping into this thread can take something away from it in terms of how to look at a photo critically and how to express their thoughts about it.

Its certainly the most thorough crit ive seen on here, but I'd be slightly concerned that people might take away the idea they have to write that much to give good crit, which could be off putting for those without David's knowledge, or indeed without the time ( I don't think ive ever seen that level of detail "in the wild" ), also there is a danger of an OP filing it under TL/DR -

imo the 'best' crit should be succinct and to the point, maybe 3 or 4 lines per image - if the OP then wants more detail on a particular point they can always ask
 
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I'm sure most people have enough sense to realise that they don't have to crit as indepth as this. but i do believe by reading such piece everyone/anyone can learn and gain from it.
 
I'm sure most people have enough sense to realise that they don't have to crit as indepth as this. but i do believe by reading such piece everyone/anyone can learn and gain from it.

indeed - but my point was that no one (David included) crits like that in the wild, because who has the time ? , ergo yes its a useful and thought provoking piece but as an example of how to give crit , it lacks a certain something (ie conciseness)

The critical parts of that critique could be imparted much more quickly, and without the photographer feeling judged or talked down to , as a swift example I would not recommend including the phrase " there is no excuse for this" in an item of critique - no one but the OP knows why they took a shot a certain way.

(reference Davids request that this not become a debate i'll leave the crit of the crit there)
 
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indeed - but my point was that no one (David included) crits like that in the wild, because who has the time ? , ergo yes its a useful and thought provoking piece but as an example of how to give crit , it lacks a certain something (ie conciseness)

Maybe but this is a critique sandpit not in the wild as you put it... it actually amazes me that we get a decent piece of critique work and someone still has something negative to say
 
Maybe but this is a critique sandpit not in the wild as you put it... it actually amazes me that we get a decent piece of critique work and someone still has something negative to say

But the whole point of the critique sandpit is to practice critique to improve it in the photosharing forums, so theres little point in writing crit here that you wouldn't in practice - and my point was while David's crit is amazingly indepth and theoretically detailed it is not a perfect example of how to give crit in practice due to its length and in places tone.

Its not about negativity per se, nor is it a personal slight to David (as i'm sure he realises - different strokes and all that) but given the purpose of this thread is to improve critique, I struggle to see why giving my view on how the crit could be improved is a problem especially as Sarah originally said (my underlining)

This thread is here for posters to practice giving critique, build confidence and discuss the critique given by others in the thread.
 
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In your last post you said you was going to leave the discussion there so why come back in on another day and start it back up again? i am assuming you realised the underlined comment and couldn't resist?

Yes it is to improve and teach critique, most people be it newbies or oldies will have a perfect realization they don't have to critique so in depth but they can gain an awful lot by reading it, learn from it, i personally can't see anything wrong from seeing the odd in depth crit especially in a thread designed for learning and teaching..

If you deem it so wrong why don't you offer your own
 
I was going to leave it alone, until I realised you'd made another comment about it being amazing that anyone should disagree, thus necessitating a nother go round of "no - actually i am allowed to have an opinion, and to express it, thanks"

I don't see anything wrong with giving indepth crit either - but that doesnt mean that i have to agree that its completely perfect in everyway, or that I can't give my view on how it could be improved. I'm not saying Davids post isnt valuable - just that there is also value in explaining how I might have done it differently.

Oh and by the way I gave crit on this thread way back on page 1 , but i'm certainly happy to demonstrate how i'd give more indepth crit if that would be useful.
 
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There was no snide comments on my part moose, i simply stated that it's a shame a good piece of crit got slated.. end of!

I came in here to learn but people like you just make me turn around and leave again. thanks
 
sigh - lets not make this personal or derail the thread any further (how we got from being freinds to this situation in less than three months saddens me beyond words, but thats not a discussion for here)

As Ive said i wasnt slating David's crit - I was just explaining that i might have done it slightly differently, Ive no doubt lots of people can learn a lot from his post, but equally some might also learn from the discussion that followed.
 
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Well done for removing all your choice words.. a much nicer read and hopefully you won't put others off for coming in and learning.
 
glad to be of service, perhaps you could reciprocate and remove the personal attack above ?
 
glad to be of service, perhaps you could reciprocate and remove the personal attack above ?


But that's just it there is no personal attack and i don't see where you think there is, i thought davids crit was excellent, you didn't, i never said you wasn't allowed an opinion but just because i don't agree with you doesn't make it an attack or that i can't disagree
 
sorry Yv, point taken
 
Its certainly the most thorough crit ive seen on here, but I'd be slightly concerned that people might take away the idea they have to write that much to give good crit, which could be off putting for those without David's knowledge, or indeed without the time ( I don't think ive ever seen that level of detail "in the wild" ), also there is a danger of an OP filing it under TL/DR -

imo the 'best' crit should be succinct and to the point, maybe 3 or 4 lines per image - if the OP then wants more detail on a particular point they can always ask

I don't normally write this much myself on here. I suspect that these images were chosen because there is so much to write about though. Usually, more conversation would be had in the course of the thread if the OP needs to know more. It wasn't to suggest that this is any kind of ideal amount of writing. I was merely pointing out that you can be as critical as you want... but always balance fault finding with advice and examples to turn every negative comment you make into a learning experience.
 
I don't normally write this much myself on here. I suspect that these images were chosen because there is so much to write about though. Usually, more conversation would be had in the course of the thread if the OP needs to know more. It wasn't to suggest that this is any kind of ideal amount of writing. I was merely pointing out that you can be as critical as you want... but always balance fault finding with advice and examples to turn every negative comment you make into a learning experience.

Fairplay , and yes critique is always better received if balances with advice (praise where possible if honest) , and examples to illuminate the experience (although we do have to be careful to not seem patronising - It is very easy for the person receiving crit to feel talked down to, if we for example start explaining the basics of exposure theory).

Personally I like the old 'feedback sandwich' model you did A, B, &C well , X, Y, and Z need improvement, but overall it was 1,2,3
 
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Hi, I'll join in...

#2, well, the low angle is a positive and there is a hint of a reflection. Also, they have sacrificed the sky in favour of the dad and son.

On the...not so good side....not keen on the portrait orientation. It's a very flat photograph. No real interaction between dad and son; and the dad appears to be on the phone. The horizon is also a tad off :)

There is potential there, bit of interaction would work as would addressing the above.

Cheers.
 
Image 2:
Positive: I really like the fact the shot is taken down low at the childs level. I also like the fact that its the father and son in a picture together. Aswell as this, the fact that they don't know the pictures being taken allows the fascination on the childs face to show and you know that its genuine.

Things to improve on: The man is on his phone which takes some of the father-son atmosphere away. A change of pose for example the man standing next to the child rather than picking his shoes up would have looked better in my opinion. The colours on the little boys clothes would look really good with a contrast boost in photoshop. The horizon also is wonky which could also be corrected in photoshop. If the photographer moved backwards the whole reflection would have been in the shot.
 
> "Great shot" type comments are OK if you genuinely like an image and that's really all you can say about it, but I'd love to see people start to think about what it is that makes it a great shot.
Not only does that help the poster to understand what they've done well, but if you learn to deconstruct an image and understand why it works for you it's a great learning aid for your own photography too.
Also remember that most of the more experienced photographers here are open to questions from beginners on how they achieved something - take advantage of that, ask questions and learn from it. Don't just drop a "great shot" and run!

I think this highlights that often the real value of critiques isn't just to the person seeking them but to everyone involved.

Its all very well offering a polite critique but you should also be willing to have a polite discussion not devolve into "well don't take my advice then!" if the poster of the original image questions it. Its easy to be polite when your looking to take a position of authority, much less so when your own knowledge/skill/taste is being questioned.

Looking at the shots at the beginning of the thread I actually find the lead candle being out of focus is one of the more interesting aspects of the first picture and probably the main positive I'd make. I'd always found that candles and flame can potentially look more interesting when not in focus and this still picks it out as the dominant part of the composition to me rather than the in focus candles behind it. So if anything my advice would be to try throwing it even further out of focus.

Sometimes its that kind of "interesting mistake"(if it was one or intended as one) that's actually of more value than what would be a fairly bland picture even if it followed more obvious technically correct advice.
 
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Image 1
I like this image
It's nicely exposed and the white balance looks good as the colour in the candles looks perfect.
I like the sharp contrast between the candles and the background especially in the reflections where it's very sharp.

I'm not sure that the front candle works for me only because it is out of focus, i think the positioning of the candle is fine as is the composition of the whole shot. I think what I would be inclined to try is to take the shot again with the front candle I touch further back in the shot so you can see its flame and adjust the depth of field to get the front candle fully focused with the others.
Maybe try live view and manual focus to check it's all pin sharp?
However beauty is in the eye of the beholder and if your intention was for the front candle to be slightly out of focus it's a great shot that achieves your aim.

Image 2
I not sure this image works at all for me
The 2 things that hit me straight away is the horizon isn't straight (it's very apparent for me because I used to suffer this a lot!) and the second thing is both of the main subjects are looking down.
It also looks a little under exposed, but the focus looks fine.
It's obviously a family photo so if you want to improve it try straightening up the horizon (you'll probably loose a little of the edges) and try adjusting the exposure at little.
If I could retake this I would call to them, or attract there attention so they look up, left or right but not down, before taking the shot. Maybe even recompose and see if you can pick up there full reflection in the water in the foreground and lose some of the grey sky at the top to add a little more interest.

Image 3
I'm not too keen on the image mainly because the pack monkeys are facing away from the camera and the shrub stumps are taking my eye away from the monkey in the centre of the frame and the climbing rope stringing across the top of the frame left to right is another distraction. The very close foreground is out of focus which is not too worrying.

I did a quick crop of the bottom left hand corner of frame with the monkey that is centre frame, now sitting in the top right third of the frame (rule of thirds) and the shot was instantly better. If you have the latitude to do this I would quickly crop it and see what you think, you can see the monkeys face much clearer and the other objects in the frame do not detract from the main focus of the image.

Colour and white balance look ok, you might want to play with some sharpening on the monkey to bring out his detail.

This for me was a useful exercise so I can learn to critique my own photographs, keepers or not!
My first rule was to not read any of the other critiques but to form my own views, when I have posted this I'll go back and read the other posts great idea Sarah Lee! How did I do??
 
Blast now I've read the posts! How did I miss image 1 was peed!! No wonder my images are too, I reckon I'm boss eyed! I think I'm gonna blame the IPad I'm reading this on.....
 
good robust crit there Steve, exactly what we need more of, - I'll look forward to seeing you giving it for real

on the first one it is easy to miss that its wonked because the dark means there's not a clear horizon/level to compare
 
Hi Pete thank you very much for that. I haven't been on a forum where they critique like I have seen here which I think is very positive. It's a great exercise because it helps you take your own photographs apart and helps when importing into LR as to what to keep.
I see what you mean about the loosing the horizon with the dark background now.
I haven't plucked up the courage to post an image yet! I don't know why, I think like a lot of people they look at the standard of images being posted and it makes them a bit reticent to post there own. Having said that isn't that the way to learn?
 
People need to ignore what others have posted before them in critique. We post because we want a varied set of comments from as many different view points as possible.

Everyone has different tastes, just because one person likes it and another hates it, doesn't mean either of them are "right". The person who TOOK the photo, is RIGHT, because its THEIR photo, but they still understand (by posting up in critique) that they want that different viewpoint, whether its good or bad. If someone is posting threads for critique and responds to negative posts, then, frankly, you shouldnt post up for critique, that will leave your ego intact.

Also, people post up "their best" from the set. I dont. I post the "worst" - pointless me putting up an image I <know> will have a decent response, Im here to learn and I wont learn anything with just positive comments.

I do like it when people say how they would have approached the image differently. I value all comments made on posts I make, whether its positive or negative. When I post to critique someone else's work, I try not to read other posts people have made as I dont want to then think "I'd better not say nothing in case so and so gets upset". I dont give a hoot.
 
Also, people post up "their best" from the set. I dont. I post the "worst" - pointless me putting up an image I <know> will have a decent response, Im here to learn and I wont learn anything with just positive comments.


That... I post both best and worst so I can learn, however some feel you should just dump your worst but how is that learning, there is always something you can take from a cr@p shot and your best shot :)
 

That... I post both best and worst so I can learn, however some feel you should just dump your worst but how is that learning, there is always something you can take from a cr@p shot and your best shot :)
i might have made an exaggeration, not the <worse> but maybe the best of the worse in some photos where Im <not entirely sure> if its worth posting and you're right, there's always something to learn (y) (especially with the macro stuff!)
 
Nope - you need to start a new thread in whichever photo genre is appropriate. This is where you/we practice giving critique.
 
indeed - but my point was that no one (David included) crits like that in the wild, because who has the time ? , e

No.. but once you know how in depth and useful crit can actually be, you choose what's appropriate at the time. Do I crit like that in here? Rarely. I will home in one one thing and write quite critically, and I often link to external resources for further reading. The above however, is exactly the kind of feedback my students get.. I wish I did jhave teh time to crit like that in here.

However.. it shows what's possible, and how crit can be critical. It also only took 5 minutes to write actually... it took longer to find the links :)

Sorry for necro posting. Only just remembered I had something in this thread and no one had quoted or tagged me, so got no alerts.
 
Right I've tried to do this without looking at others comments first. Also these have been done from viewing on my tablet.
1
I like this shot. You've done a good job of getting a nice glow while keeping the background dark without burning out the highlights, with the obvious exception of the centre of the flame. I think it would have been more pleasing if the front candle was the in focus rather than the one vto the left of it. I also think it would benefit from being straightened, the right seems to be down a tad.

2
I like that you've capture the boy looking at his foot making prints in the sand. You can see that he's thinking about how his foot is doing it. From what I can see you have him focused well. There is just enough forground interest to show that the sand is wet.
I think its a shame the man, is concentrating so much on his phone. Yes we all read texts etc when we are out but seeing it in the photo gives the feel he'd rather be somewhere else. I'd clone him out to give the boy the focus he deserves. It nesed straightening too. Also I wonder if you could bring some detail out in the sky.

3
From what I can see the subject monkey looks sharp and he's got a leaf so giving some interest. This one is straight too going by the vertical of the door
However the photo as a whole looks messy. I think you'd have benefited from a closer shot of him or at least quite a heavy crop off the bottom, off the top to take out the round windows and a little off the left. Its also backlit so try playing with levels and shadows and highlights.
 
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Something I would like to ask is, is there anything wrong with just liking the op's thread should you not be able to/want to give crit for some reason but like the images that have been posted? At least this way the op can see if peeps like their work even if comments have been left.
 
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