The lost craft of photography?

No again.

All that matters to you might be the end result but what matters to me is the whole process.

I don't make money from photography, I do it because I want to. Therefore I do it the way I want to do it rather than the way people think I should be doing it.

Much like when I play music. I use Ye Olde Fashioned hollow body guitar you can see in my avatar image rather than one of those new fangled, modern, solid body guitars (designed in 1947!).

Steve we're latched onto slightly different topics here. I am not saying the the process isn't important to the creator. I have said the process chosen is a personal choice and therefore it is internally important to the creator and you will always appreciate the work you put into creating the end result. Other people who understand will also appreciate the work you have done to get the end result BUT at the end of the day it is the end result which matters. The process does not guarantee a good end result whether you use film or digital. 99% of the population will judge the image only on what they see hanging on the wall. The majority of people neither know nor care what went ino getting that final result. Its the difference between the photographer's POV and the viewing public's POV. I totally get why you want to work with film, I'm thinking of putting in a dark room as I do have some commercial ideas for using film and hand printing, but as I said its all tools at the end of the day.
 
Photography, pre-digital required more photographic skill. It now requires more digital skills. The age of the real photographer as we traditionally know it, is dead.

I could say things like.. "If you all suddenly had to do anything in camera, you'd all be screwed". I realise that would be a pointless thing to say, as no one is required to do that these days... it IS an interesting point though. I reckon the vast majority of photographers now, would genuinely be screwed if they couldn't post process their images and had to rely on lighting and creativity.

There's also an attitude that is VERY common now amongst amateurs (and some professionals, scarily enough), that post processing is where pretty much ALL the skill is. Threads like this kind of make my point for me...

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=482365

See something good? "How is that processed?" is the automatic question. The other thing is, that when you try and suggest to today's generation that lighting is everything, they resist, they fight, they argue.... they know best. :) I see this year in, year out.

So.. all this post processing.... just the same as you did in the darkroom huh? I love it when people make this comment have never even been in a darkroom too :) Yeah you can dodge, burn, pre-flash, solarise, tone a print, do montages... but what about HDR? What about crap like the "dragan" effect.. high pass filtering, yadda yadda.... Seriously people... take a look at what you do to your images, and then ask yourselves.. what would I do if I was into this game 30 years ago? Stop kidding yourselves.... seriously.. what would you do 30 years ago?


Don't pretend you're only doing what people in the darkroom used to do, because you're just not, OK? You may be able to fool each other, but it cuts no ice with me.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with any of the above.... well, except HDR, which is crap... fact :) The world has changed.. photography has changed. No point looking back and being nostalgic.. that's as stupid as anything else.


Evolve or Die.... that's very true... however....


There is one inescapable fact: Great photography needs great lighting and creativity. Lack either of those two, and no amount of processing will help you. Without those two, you'll be crap and always will be until you acknowledge that fact.

Did anyone watch the documentary on Erwin Blumenfeld last week? Some of you may have been seeing his work for the first time... and I think it's important to make one thing clear...

None of
these
have
been
near
a computer

Few are the photographers who could get this these days.. I mean literally get it on a piece of transparency film.. in camera. "So what?" you cry!... Well... unfortunately the skills that allow you to do that, are the very same ones that make an image great.. and that still applies today no matter what you shoot on.



The best photographers understand lighting, and understand that they are using a communication medium.

Everyone else is just everyone else.


This...exactly.

I use both film and digital; enjoying both for different reasons.

I too find it amusing when people claim that the PP they do is just what was regularly done in the darkroom, or that doing something in photoshop is just as difficult as doing the same in a darkroom.

One of my favourite tools in photoshop is spot healing to remove imperfections. One click and they are gone, and so beautifully cloned out I can't even tell they were ever there. Try doing that in a darkroom as quickly and easily. And as David points out the list of PP effects now available that were undreamt of in the drakroom is large.

PP in a darkroom was not as universally available to amateurs as digital PP is. Sure, the pros had access to skilled darkroom manipulators to personally instruct them on what changes to make, but the majority of amateurs had no such input.

Like the other Steve, I too enjoy the entire process of film, but I'm also an amateur and for me this is a hobby to be enjoyed, I imagine if the final output was all that mattered to me, I would be digital only. But even after years and years of film, I still get excited by the magic of an image appearing in a developing tray.
 
Well, let's see ..... what skills might we expect of a good photographer:

An understanding of the elements of composition
Technical knowledge of exposure, and creative exposure
Technical understanding of equipment and lenses
Knowledge of posing and direction (if you're a wedding, prostate, or fashion photographer)
Basic styling and an understanding of the brief
A very good basis in lighting, both natural and artificial
Narrative and timing
Editing and processing
The ability to work with people and clients
Business acumen

So what exactly has changed? Well, when I used to shoot film using flash was a bit more complicated since we had a few calculations to do, and manual focusing was normal. Once the film had been used, I had a very good lab to process it, and an excellent printer who understood exactly how I liked my pictures to look. That's not to say I didn't at times develop my own film, but mostly other people did it. In some ways life was fairly straightforward and we didn't mind waiting for the results (I always had a notebook with me where I recorded my settings).

One of the hardest transitions to digital was the realisation that in order to process and retouch my work to professional standards it was likely to take a few years to really understand digital production. Then I had to get up to speed with graphic design, so that I could create unique products and storyboards, and album layouts (in years gone by we would usually just place one print per page in a 30 side album) since that is what modern customers expect. And we all have to be Webmasters as well. So I'm not entirely of the mind that it is "easier" these days to be a good photographer. Instead, I will say good entry-level equipment is now very accessible and most people can afford to have a decent camera. That does not mean they will be good photographers, that defies rational sense. It simply means they will take photos, mostly for enjoyment. And most will give up when they realise the camera doesn't create the shot they think they deserve. Look at the list above. What we see instead nowadays is a great range of styles and tastes, due to the virtually endless looks which can be achieved thanks to digital processing. But for the professionals amongst us, the skills required are pretty much what they have always been, bar the fact that we now have to learn another spectrum of digital skills. It's just as well that digital allows leeway to practice as much as we want ..... this helps us to push the boundaries more.

But "way back then" I'm not sure the proportion of poor photographers to good photographers was much different than it is today. It's just that today there are vastly more people who are calling themselves photographers, and vastly more who believe that there is less of a need to learn the craft from the ground up since they can garnish what they produce using software, and hope it will cut the mustard. If you intend to be successful professionally today then you will need to be very good. About 30 years ago you didn't have to be all that good to earn money as a photographer, you just had to be predictable and fairly consistent.
 
Having an eye to take both pictures and an eye for knowing you'll be able to make a shot even better with an eye for processing techniques is a real plus.
 
mmmmmm I always find myself wondering about posts like this. They strike me as very self indulgent. I don't believe for a second the 'craft' of photography has gone. It may well be that digital has made it easier to check your work and retake if needed. But digital still has far less latitude then film for exposure errors. You need to take correctly exposed images still. Same with composition,lighting and a million and one other things that make up the 'craft.'
 
PP is not about 'saving' a poor shot. PP is simply an essential part of the photographic whole. This is the case whether you shoot film or digi. 'Getting it right in the camera' is no more or less essential than 'getting it right in post'. Unfortunately many people fail to grasp this simple fact. The amount of PP required is no more relevant than the amount of work needed to get the exposure right.

Pretty much, if anything I'd say the reverse that being able to visualise hown you'll post process a shot is a key skill to devolp, what looks best out of the camera isn't always best to work with afterwards.
 
mmmmmm I always find myself wondering about posts like this. They strike me as very self indulgent. I don't believe for a second the 'craft' of photography has gone. It may well be that digital has made it easier to check your work and retake if needed. But digital still has far less latitude then film for exposure errors. You need to take correctly exposed images still. Same with composition,lighting and a million and one other things that make up the 'craft.'

I wasn't suggesting the craft of photography has gone Hugh - quite the opposite, if one wants to create sound imagery with commercial value. Instead, I am saying that most newcomers prefer to overlook the craft, and have little interest in learning the various elements of good picture making. They just want to take a photo and see it immediately. That alone appears to be sufficient for many to believe they should consider changing career.

As for exposure latitude, there isn't much in it these days, but I remember what it was like when digital first came out!
 
I wasn't suggesting the craft of photography has gone Hugh - quite the opposite, if one wants to create sound imagery with commercial value. Instead, I am saying that most newcomers prefer to overlook the craft, and have little interest in learning the various elements of good picture making. They just want to take a photo and see it immediately. That alone appears to be sufficient for many to believe they should consider changing career.

As for exposure latitude, there isn't much in it these days, but I remember what it was like when digital first came out!

Sorry Lindsay. My post was much more general about these types of threads, rather then aimed at anyone.

I do agree with you about newcomers to photography in general though
 
I think we need to take a step back, and look at the "results" - to my mind, photography hasn't moved on one jot for creativity for the advent of digital - in many ways it's gone backwards - due in no small part to the refusal of people to learn the basics of "the craft", and an over-reliance on "PP" - all you have to do is look at some of the myriad third rate social photographers' websites - strip away the gimmicks, and you're often left with some dreadfully mediocre work, very much "king's new clothes" stuff - which brings up the next point - "there's no accounting for taste" - photography is subjective, what we all enjoy is down to taste (or lack of it!:D)
I remember wincing at the "everything softed" wedding work at the time, presented in brown and gold oval-cutout pages in a Spicer Hallfield album - so much of what is trendy now will look just as naff and dated given the passage of the years - yet the people who do naff then and now will always find a market.........

As someone said "Stop kidding yourselves.... seriously.. what would you do 30 years ago?" - as a professional, you went out and took photographs, and HAD to get it right in camera - in the hard commercial world of social photography you needed a print that looked good when it came out of the machine (having had only the most rudimentary exposure/colour correction). If you were good at it, your enlargements could be done on the cheapest "machine print" rate, so you prided yourself (and maintained your profits) by "getting it right":D
Nowadays I want to scream when I hear people say "I can alter that in Photoshop". Look at your subject - has she got skin like an orange? - light and take it it right, and the problem can be minimised - no need for pp remedials at all.........
 
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and if there is a market the craft there is completely different...
 
I think we need to take a step back, and look at the "results" - to my mind, photography hasn't moved on one jot for creativity for the advent of digital - in many ways it's gone backwards - due in no small part to the refusal of people to learn the basics of "the craft", and an over-reliance on "PP" - all you have to do is look at some of the myriad third rate social photographers' websites - strip away the gimmicks, and you're often left with some dreadfully mediocre work, very much "king's new clothes" stuff - which brings up the next point - "there's no accounting for taste" - photography is subjective, what we all enjoy is down to taste (or lack of it!:D)
I remember wincing at the "everything softed" wedding work at the time, presented in brown and gold oval-cutout pages in a Spicer Hallfield album - so much of what is trendy now will look just as naff and dated given the passage of the years - yet the people who do naff then and now will always find a market.........

As someone said "Stop kidding yourselves.... seriously.. what would you do 30 years ago?" - as a professional, you went out and took photographs, and HAD to get it right in camera - in the hard commercial world of social photography you needed a print that looked good when it came out of the machine (having had only the most rudimentary exposure/colour correction). If you were good at it, your enlargements could be done on the cheapest "machine print" rate, so you prided yourself (and maintained your profits) by "getting it right":D
Nowadays I want to scream when I hear people say "I can alter that in Photoshop". Look at your subject - has she got skin like an orange? - light and take it it right, and the problem can be minimised - no need for pp remedials at all.........


nah - there was atleast as much dross around then as there is now. The worst of its dissapeared with the passage of time (except for us to laugh at)

Any form of social photography is so competitive nowadays unless you are very good and capable you wont last
 
nah - there was atleast as much dross around then as there is now. The worst of its dissapeared with the passage of time (except for us to laugh at)

Any form of social photography is so competitive nowadays unless you are very good and capable you wont last


Which is what I said - dross will always be with us, there's loads of it being made using PP, and taste being what it is, there will always be a market for it (sadly):bang:
 
Digital has changed photography, that is for sure; and in many ways for the better.

Forgetting the mechanisms of making a picture, for a moment, 'digital' has opened, or at least prised wide, two doors.

1/ Digital Delivery.
Before digital, photography made a physical artifiact. A picture. Usually a print, on a bit of paper. Those artificats were presented to the viewer, either in an envelope you got from the chemists, or in an album, or in a book or magazine. Occassionally, perhaps, some sad chap would torture his freinds and family, pulling out a projector & darkening the living room to give a slide show of thier holiday snaps.
But for the most part, photo's were rarely seen, hidden away in the projector caroucelles, tucked in the back of bottom drawers, or stuck in albums getting dusty on book-shelves.
Published photo's obviousely got more exposure, but even then. Most were published in news-papers with a shelf life of a weeek, or magazines that might be kept a month until the next eddition came out, and preserved only in stacks on toilet floors until a women got fed up with them, or in Dentists waiting rooms!

2/ Indexing and Archiving.
In days of yore; the image was all. What you cought on the negative was all you got. I have hundreds of negatives that have come to me from my Grand-Parents after they died. I Might be able to tell from the film edge whether its a Kodak or Fuji film, and I might be able to tell if its a 100ASA or 200ASA, but not on all. I have no idea what camera the film was exposed in, what lens was on it, or what the shutter speed and appature might have been. I dont know who took the photo; I dont know when they took the photo, or unless there is something identifiable in the image, where, or of who.
Meanwhile, they are physical artifacts, subject to mechanical damage in storage & handling, and believe me, many are damaged. some have got damp. Some have been chewed by rodents. Others taken from thier sleeved are scratched to bludgery. And mixed up, and in no order, I often cant tell what strip belongs to what 'set' or came from what film.

Digital has pried open these to areas of photography. As far as indexing and archiving are concerned; well, it was possible in the olden days to be very very diligent, and keep manual records of your photo's and to store them in order, neatly and tidily... just wasn't very easy, or convenient, hence very common. Digital, Data Embedding, though; cameras record basic situation information within the image data-file. The EXIF data. The Camera, shutter & apature; Date, & time; possibly the lens setting, if not the lens. And, much more easily, extra info may be automatically or manu8ally added to this, and stored with the actual image file; GPS Co-Ords, Photographer's name & contact details, a Photo title, photographers comments. All making it a lot easier and more convenient to keep track of photo's and give them extra relevence as to what they are, and what they are showing us. AND instant, and lossless reproduction. There's no one master negative. Copy the file from SD card to CD... you have two copies. Photo's can be preserved, with much less risk of degredation or distruction.

Then we have digital delivery. Instant, lossless, almost costless reproduction.

If I wanted to show photo's of my kids Chrsitening to my brothers.. I had to wait until they came round and crack out the family album. Or I had to go through the pictures, pick out the ones they might be interested in, get copies printed, pop them in an envelope and post them to them. Now? I stick it on Face-Book... and they, with a couple of clicks, see the lot, 17" wide on the screen on thier lap! Pictures of my Daughter's Birthday Party? Grandad can see them, day after, ten thousand miles away, on another continent on hios frigging mobile phone!

Digital delivery has pulled photo's out of the cupboards, off shelves and put them where people can, and want to look at them.

And it's self perpetuating; people looking at photo's makes people want to look at photo's, makes people go take more photo's for people to look at, and so on and so forth....

Yeah.... I think they should draw a line some-where... NO I really dont want to see a photo of your breakfast, or what your cat left in the kitchen, than-you very much.... but HEY! People got cameras in thier hands and are using them, and people are looking at the pictures they take.

And bottom line, that is what a picture is for, to be looked at!

All well and good taking pictures, but oif they get looked at once, then hidden in an album or box never to be seen again, no matter how much technical or artistic merit they may have.... they are some-what more pointless than the 'Look at My Lazy Dog' shot some-one has taken with thier camera-phone and put on Face-Book, that at least CAN be seen, even if no one really wants to!

OK, lets return to the original proposition then: I'm interested to know if others feel some of the craft of photography is being lost

Well, first off, a craft can only be lost if there are no practitioners; fact that digital has put cameras in so many folks hands AND got them using them, can only increase the number of practicioners, hence increase the odds that the 'craft' will flourish. Thats the first thing.

Think about it. Fifty years ago, not every household had a camera. If they did, it was 'Dads' camera, like as not, and just as likely, it would get loaded with a film, probably 24 exposures long; only half of which would be exposed, taking cheesy holiday snaps during the annual summer holiday, the rest possibly spent taking a few snaps on special occassions.

I just came accross, an old 220 cartridge film that found its way into my archive, I think from my Grandfathers stuff, that I scanned this week-end. First couple of frames showed what I think were some shots of Edinburgh, and a parade of kilted Soldiers with bag-pipes at the front of one of them, suggests it was at the Edinburg Tatoo. I'm guessing, but I seem to recall being told of a Family Holiday to Edinburgh when my Dad was 16... so dates the pictures possibly to 1966 or 1967. Next on the reel, are some wedding snaps. My Mother's wedding... easy to identify them, but dates those frames to 1970.. before the last few frames show some ornimental gardens, that could have been taken at any time, except one of them seems to commemorate the England Rugby team, with floweres planted to form the numerals 1972, clearly in shot. So... one film, pictures spanning half a decade!

And from a cartridge instamatic. The antique point and press. What 'Craft' was there to using such a camera?

Modern 'Consumer' cameras, whether last of the line 35mm film compacts with Program Meter Automatic Exposure, and Auto-Focus, or modern Digital Compacts, whether stand alone pocket cameras or even camera-phones are not a lot different; demanding little skill or knowledge to operate.

And every dog and his dixie has one! Geez! They are giving cameras to frighging CATS these days! I think this says as much as anything! Once upon a time pets were photographic subjects for indulgent owners. Now they are the frigging photographers with thier own bloomin Blog-spot and You-Tube Channel!

Sort of shows how far digital, making photography that much more accessible and digital delivery getting pictures out there to be seen has made SO many more photographers, so many more photo's and got people interested and looking at them!

This cannot be indicative of a dying craft! Surely!

OK.. so we dig into the detail; big difference between putting together an Ikea flat-pack wardrobe and crafting a Queen Ann Cabinet complete with vaneer marquetry.. both is making furnature, but skill demonstrated by either are at opposite ends of the 'craft'.

So.. what skill are we talking about?

Making Pictures. This is the bottom line. Lighting, composition, finding the interest, understanding the angles.... None of this has changed.

Might be looking at an LCD panel on a modern camera not a ground glass view-finder, but still the same skill. And this is STILL 90% or more of what makes the picture, what you look at and record.

Camera Control? Technical mastery of the machine. Hmmmm. Well, modern cameras might have fancy auto-focus and auto-metering and stuff. This is however not really the preserve of the Digital Camera. Through The lens metering has been around since when? 1960's? Meter-Linked Automatic Exposure? 1970's? Auto-Focus? 1980's? Those technologies, thouse 'easements' or 'conveniences' were around a long time, while the only capture medium was still film. And, I recall THEN people griping that they 'De-Skilled' the craft.

Digital has done no more than change the capture medium, and make it a heck of a lot cheaper and easier to make pictures.

I can still switch off the Auto-Focus on my Digital camera, I can still switch off the Automatic TTL Exposure controls, put it on 'Manual' and use the old Selenium Cell hand held meter. I just dont HAVE to.

And, with far more Digital SLR's out there, and in the hands of people more often using them, and taking more photo's with them; we see on here, more and more people asking HOW to use these manual controls and actually seeking these 'old' skills.

Doesn't really suggest that they are being 'lost', in fact suggests they are being encouraged.

Dark-Room, Post Processing? Another resounding Hmmmmmmm.

What skills were used in the dark room that dont ranslate to digital? Well, instantly the messy time consuming processes of mixing solutions springs to mind. Is that really 'photography'? Or merely applied chemistry. If you want to critasise Digital for 'killing' that skill, then by rights you ought to similarly critasise commercial celuloid film for 'killing' the skill of having to make your own glass plates, mixing your own emulsions!

So... printing. Dodging & Burning? Selecting paper grades? Air-Brushing? All the skills of making a print in an enlarger are still there.... just done in a different way. Yes, the dexterouse hands on skills of setting up the enlarger, making test strips etc are redundant; and the ease and oportunity to do incredibly complicated dark room processes are made an awful lot easier and faster in the Digital Post-Process package.

But Bottom line... its still making a picture.

Reliance on Post-Processing? This is another matter, and getting I think to the nub of your gripe. you had to get it right in the camera

Not REALLY. Remember, its about making a picture. The Grand Masters did that with photographic accuracy with a paint-brush and oils! Photography just made it a lot easier.

Photo-Realism? Well, the only 'True' image is the one we see with the naked eye. Using a camera we are only ever capturing an interpretation of that scene; and 'in camera'... we are not getting photo-realism when we use a tele-photo lens to get us closer to the subject. And 'in camera' we are deliberately exploiting photgraphic distortions whenever we utilise larger aparture selective focus to detatch and emphasise the subject against the back-ground, or a fast shutter speed to freeze motion that's faster than they eye can see, or deliberately use slow shutter speeds to make 'blur' to emphasise motion in the scene.

Its never 'Real', and doing it all 'in camera', is to limit yourself to a few tricks and techniques of the trade.

Process is MAKING a PICTURE. And camera is only the front end tool of the process, and one area where you can effect influence. Why restrict yourself or deny the merit in doing it elsewhere?

Back to skills of old; and modern HDR manipulations; modern re-invention of over-printing. Remember, before commercial celuloid film 'killed' the photographer's skill of making and preparing thier own glass plates, home-made emulsions were often very slow, and had very little exposure lattitude. Te MAKE a PICTURE, photographer HAD to use an extended skill-set, and make perhaps three exposures, one for high-lights, one for mid-tones and one for shaddows, to over-print on a single piece of paper, in order to get a full tonal range in the finished picture.

In THAT instance, whether modern use of HDR Post-Processing narks you, and so many examples of it de me.... doesn't really matter, it remains an example of where actually contrary to your argument, modern Digital techniques, and specifically Post-Processing techniques are actually rejuvinating skills even OLDER then those commonly practiced in the era of the manual film camer you are mourning.

Few probably understand, let alone apreciate that's what they are doing when they make an HDR merge, and they are probably not using the technique as of old or for the same reasons, or with the same discipline or dexterity.... BUT, they are applying the technique, and perpetuating the craft in doing so.

Which brings me around to suggest, in answer to original hypothesis, No, the 'craft' isn't being killed by digital, its being nurtrured and promoted, I think, very well.

As far as photographers attitudes and emphasis; and the suggestion that so much attension is paid to correcting problems in Post-Process, rather than avoiding them in camera, it is a tangential debate.

As a society we are now a lot more technology dependent. It's not just cameras. Want some fun? Take the fuse out of the kettle and see how many people, when you ask them to make a cuppa will think of boiling water in a pan on the hob! "Cant! Kettle wont work!" It's something endemic to modern thinking. So accustomed to pre-packeged solutions, our problem solving skills, or even basic common sense is seriousely eroded, and tangential elemental, 'back to basics' thinking just doesn't happen.

BUT, again, I dont think that digital is necesserily to blame here. Auto-Exposure, auto-focus were all around before digital. Digital is only a change in the capture mechanism. And even in the days of film, people would look at thier pictures and ask if it was thier film, or a problem with thier camera or if Boots were to blame, when they had flare in the picture because they had pointed the camera into the sun and not shaded the lens.

Models would expect acne to be air-brushed out in reproduction; printers were asked to correct converging verticals where a tilt lens hadn't been used, etc etc etc... it was all still possible; people still looked to the technology to correct stuff, it was just harder to do and less common, and people were less inclined to look to such solutions as first course.

But throughout; emphasis and attension has significantly always been on the camera; the primary capture device, and its been endowed with far more ability and responsibility to influence the making of a good picture than it ever really deserves, because it is the icon of the photographer, that is most obviouse... rather than thier eye.

If anything has been 'lost', and I suspect it probably has, then it is 'Discipline'. But that is again, endemic to modern society.... just ask a school teacher!

Imagination, I think is probably not as lacking as we'd presume; we just see a lot more photo's and a lot more emulation of styles, and with more and more easily obtainable creative tools at our disposal, a lot more experimentaion, and by extension, a lot more poor or failed results in consequence.

But bottom line.... its all about making a picture.

Whether as an artist, using brushes and paints, or a photographer, using lenses and chemicals, or lenses and electronics... its tools and techniques to the same end, all as valid as each other, but some-one ultimately has to know how to use them, and handle them, and where and when and how to use them to best effect.

good pictures are made, not taken.

Rest is just getting the best from your tools.
 
Knowledge of 'craft' is only of relevance if you are making photos to please other people - for profit or ego massage.

If you make pictures for yourself it doesn't matter a jot how little knowledge of 'craft' you have. And you might still make really, really, good pictures.

At the end of the day all you need to know is what you need to know.
 
Nowadays I want to scream when I hear people say "I can alter that in Photoshop". Look at your subject - has she got skin like an orange? - light and take it it right, and the problem can be minimised - no need for pp remedials at all.........

But why is that a problem? I find it easier to PP images rather than get everything exactly 100% right in camera. The end result is the same. It's like refusing to use a vacuum cleaner just because you have a perfectly good dustpan and brush. Looking down on people who use PP just because they don't understand ~~* The Craft *~~ or whatever is silly in my opinion. You still need a good understanding of light and composition to take great images no matter what. It just smacks of "it was harder back in the day, you wouldn't understand" style elitism.
 
At the end of the day all you need to know is what you need to know.
Ah... yes.. but how do you know, if you know all you need to know, if you know what I mean ;)

I mean, you'd need to know a bit more than what you need to know, just to know you dont need to know it; but then to know more than you need to know makes it something you need to know, which means you need to know even more, to know you dont need to know it! so you have to know more than you need to know, and you can never know more than you know, becouse eventually you'll know everything, and with no more to know, you cant know more than you do, becouse there's no more to know, but you need to know more in order to know that you dont need to know it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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But why is that a problem? I find it easier to PP images rather than get everything exactly 100% right in camera.

That perfectly illustrates my point - the "craft" of photography IS being lost - to my mind it's best should know the simple basics of lighting that would enable you to light it right in the first place, so you wouldn't need to faff about in Photoshop - it's absolutely fine for an amateur to do what they like, but many people these days tend to take the same attitude, and then think they can do professional quality photography using the same techniques....
Many of the images put up for critique on this forum are hopelessly over-smoothed, and make the subject look like waxworks dolls..........:D
 
it's absolutely fine for an amateur to do what they like, but many people these days tend to take the same attitude, and then think they can do professional quality photography using the same techniques....

Again though, if the end result is the same what does it matter how the image was achieved? What you're talking about is completely different. Overly processed images are just bad photography. It's nothing to do with "the craft". If you want to get everything right in camera and do as close to zero post processing then fair enough. Personally I enjoy the whole PP aspect of photography but then I barely remember film cameras being a thing.
 
Ah... yes.. but how do you know, if you know all you need to know, if you know what I mean ;)

I mean, you'd need to know a bit more than what you need to know, just to know you dont need to know it; but then to know more than you need to know makes it something you need to know, which means you need to know even more, to know you dont need to know it! so you have to know more than you need to know, and you can never know more than you know, becouse eventually you'll know everything, and with no more to know, you cant know more than you do, becouse there's no more to know, but you need to know more in order to know that you dont need to know it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then there's the known unknowns, and the unknown unknowns. :D
 
Some very interesting points being made here I'd like to comment on a few.

A couple of posters have indicated that pp is an integral part of making any image, digital or film. Why? in film days probably 80% of negatives I printed were just straight forward prints. Now although all my images go through Lightroom, probably only about 20% are adjusted in any way and of them less than 5% will go onto photoshop. Sure I love playing about in photoshop, but I do so just to enhance an image or make something not possible in camera.

I have nothing but huge admiration for people who can do good photoshopping, it's an area I'm looking to actively improve myself. However i dont necceserily agree with the statement that things can be easier to rectify in photoshop rather than getting it right in camera. As an example I shoot 100 images of a model. I take the extra time to light and pose to loose or minimise any flaws in the subject. Straight from the camera I have 100 possible images I could present to a client or model, to choose from. Then possibly some extra work on Perhaps 10 or 20 they might choose. Against that less care at the taking stage and I have 100 So so images and I have to process perhaps 50 to a level acceptable to present before final processing.

Finally when I started this tread I asked if you felt SOME of the skills in photography were being lost. I was talking mainly about people who want more from their photography than it being just a record of their life. I am thrilled that the digital revolution has lead to more people picking up cameras and if all they want to do is produce photos that only mean something to them or their immediate family and friends, that's great, all power to them. Others will want to produce something more and will go on to make aw inspiring images. But unfortunately I feel there are others that want to produce great pictures but don't understand and cant be bothered learning what makes a great picture. Fortunately there are many good image makers about who are willing to help them if they want it.

So if it's of any interest my feelings so far are that yes there are many people out there still upholding and passing on the traditional skills associated with photography. However the core skills seem to be evolving with a greater emphasis toward pp. that's fine I have no problems with any of it. I look forward to seeing even more fantastic photography and as many of us have said its all about the final image. Personally I don't really give a **** how it was made! :D

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this tread, please feel free to carry on.(y)
 
Ah... yes.. but how do you know, if you know all you need to know, if you know what I mean ;)

I mean, you'd need to know a bit more than what you need to know, just to know you dont need to know it; but then to know more than you need to know makes it something you need to know, which means you need to know even more, to know you dont need to know it! so you have to know more than you need to know, and you can never know more than you know, becouse eventually you'll know everything, and with no more to know, you cant know more than you do, becouse there's no more to know, but you need to know more in order to know that you dont need to know it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Love this!:clap:
 
but then I barely remember film cameras being a thing.

I made my living using film for some 20 years, I'd have starved if I hadn't learnt to "get it right in the camera" - there was no safety net of Photoshop - it wasn't (and still isn't) any hardship, it was what you had to do to get a good picture..... Perhaps I'm "lazy" or spoiled by using film processors for years, but find faffing over one's pictures with a computer to be a total pain - it's so much easier and quicker to get it right in the first place, then to do the very minimum of "pp" (in my case, usually minimal colour and exposure correction, pretty much what they'd have done in the lab to my films)

I welcome the advent of digital and easier to use cameras, it enables nearly everyone to easily take acceptable "record shots" of their lives, but I really don't think it has advanced photography as a whole, and in some ways has been deeply detrimental. Where on earth did that lunatic "hold it at arm's length and try to peer at a lit screen you can't see in the sun" nonsense come from?:D
 
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i think the craft of picture taking (depending on camera) is simplier now. my old folder doesnt have a proper focusing system, you dial in focus by guessing distance. it has no exposure meter, so yeah external meter, or guesstimating.
it only goes upto 200th/sec too.
no image stabilzation, the viewfinders are terrible too really.
each shot cost money. film vs digital is why vs why not
then u gotta be careful with exposed film, rewinding or sealing the roll

on digital you can literaly just point and click in 1/2 seconds and be done, or chimp to check, cant do that with film
and remmbering to wind it on...

so in the moment of taking a picture, the physical craft has largely gone.
instead of twidling things on the camera, we can twidle sliders in pp
 
i think the craft of picture taking (depending on camera) is simplier now. my old folder doesnt have a proper focusing system, you dial in focus by guessing distance. it has no exposure meter, so yeah external meter, or guesstimating.
it only goes upto 200th/sec too.
no image stabilzation, the viewfinders are terrible too really.
each shot cost money. film vs digital is why vs why not
then u gotta be careful with exposed film, rewinding or sealing the roll

on digital you can literaly just point and click in 1/2 seconds and be done, or chimp to check, cant do that with film
and remmbering to wind it on...

so in the moment of taking a picture, the physical craft has largely gone.
instead of twidling things on the camera, we can twidle sliders in pp

My thinking is the reverse.

I find it simpler to take a photo with my old film cameras. Once committed to a film ASA, I only have 3 buttons:
shutter speed
aperture
manual focus

Nothing else to get in the way and confuse, enabling me to concentrate on getting the photo right.

On the other hand, my digital SLR has so many buttons and menus that it can distract from the process. In addition to the above, there are so many other things to consider...ISO, WB, AF points, exposure weighting, colour settings, quality settings etc etc....

In comparison, film seems a lot simpler and easier than digital. Or maybe it just feels that way to me as it allows me to concentrate on getting the basics right without getting bogged down in the seemingly endless variations and minor adjustments of a modern DSLR.
 
i think the craft of picture taking (depending on camera) is simplier now. .........
so in the moment of taking a picture, the physical craft has largely gone.
instead of twidling things on the camera, we can twidle sliders in pp

I think this takes us into an area of symantics, and a different argument, from clean camera discipline, into where the skill in making a picture lies.

A lot of knob twiddling is not 'craft' its mechanics. There's no more 'skill' in accepting the reading of a hand-held meter and dialing in suggested settings from an EV calculator wheel, to accepting suggested settings made directly by a camera with integrated meter and exposure control. You merely don't HAVE to mess around fiddling so much, or taking so much time to do something the long and laboriousness way.

Skill remains in knowing where to point the ruddy thing, and knowing when and where to accept suggested EV's and where and when not to, and where not to, what to do instead.

Automation hasn't 'removed' the skill of taking a photograph, its merely made it easier, and with more sophisticated automated cameras, increased the range of situations over which demand skilled intervention.

That has made it quicker and easier for a skilled photographer to get the pictures they want, as well as making it easier and increasing the general success rate of the less skilled photographer. It has not 'removed' the skill. That is still required, its merely the intervention that's not required, quite so often.

I'd have starved if I hadn't learnt to "get it right in the camera" - there was no safety net of Photoshop
No, but you could still do a lot on the dark room, and in fact, to make the finished print to view, you had to, to a greater or lesser degree.
To start with you had to make a secondary exposure from neg to poss, which allows if not demands a post-process adjustement; and of course you have to select paper, including paper grade for contrast as well as finish... and talking papers; standard paper sizes, there are only a couple that 'match' standard film aspect ratio, usually inconveniently to the film used. So to begin with, almost all prints were cropped, if for no other reason than to match aspect ratio to paper size.

To a greater or lesser degree, whether you made your own prints, or whether you used a commercial lab, or mini-lab; there was post-processing going on, whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Whether you chose to exploit further post processing or more complicated manipulations of not, it was still there.

Back to clean camera discipline; yes, it is still useful, and can save a lot of post-processing to get it right at point of capture... but there are, and have always been valid reasons... to not be a pedant to clean camera discipline.

Matter of cropping; SLR view-finder, shows, through the pentaprism, only aprox 95% of the scene captured through the lens. View-Finder cameras, or Twin-lens Cameras, may have view-finders that show perhaps 125% of the captured scene, with framing marks indicating the capture area edges. But they suffer from paralax error, the view-finder not co-incident with the capture lens.

Using an SLR, then you have a fuzzy margin of about 5% image area that is beyond what you can see through the view-finder. Using a twin-lens or view-finder camera, there is about a similar margin of paralex error. Ie: if you frame 'tight' on your subject in the view-finder... when you get the image out the camera, it's likely that there will be a little extra image area around it, or the image will be slightly off center to where you thought you framed it. Its an inherent abhoration due to the mechanics of the camera, that there is little you might do to escape.

So; accepting this quirk, and being a 'little' sloppy in your in camera discipline; NOT framing so tightly, and composing deliberately wide at point of capture so that you have a larger margin in which to crop at post process...

Is this being post-process reliant? Is this lazy camera work? Or is this ACTUALLY displaying a little 'craft', in understanding your tools and the medium and exploiting oportunities to help get a better picture, and reduce the chances of getting a duffer?

Same with Automatic Exposure; Using AE Program, where the chances are you are not going to disagree with the settings it suggests, why NOT let the electronics do the work? Its not lazy; especially if that convenience is letting you keep the camera to your eye and get pictures you might other wise NOT get, having to take time out to blunder around taking new meter readings, fiddle with calculator dial, and make new settings.

Its about knowing your tools, working with thier strengths and around thier weaknesses, and actually using your skill and dexterity to get the picture you want.

End of the day, that is where the skill lies, and has always lain... modern or antique.
 
I wasnt around when film was, I dont know how anybody else does it but ill take my camera out and when I come back ill open the pictures and look at them; those that are already good and im happy with I put into Lightroom - most of the time id be happy to not edit them at all but I am able to and I am able to make them better so why not? Those which arent that good I bin and never look at them again. You cant polish a turd, you can roll it in glitter but its still a turd at the end of the day.
Also, I remember reading recently about someone who won a photography competition, the rules were no editing but he used Photoshop to layer a more interesting sky into the photograph. Ive never done anything like that because I probably wouldnt be able to do a very good job of it and two youre only fooling yourself; I take photos because I enjoy it, I like impressing people with it but most of my photos on Flickr get a handful of views, no one would care if I put a new sky into my photographs and it certainly wouldn't feel satisfying to me looking at it and know its just fake.
 
One thing remains certain though. If your images were boring and unskilled with film, they'll still be boring and unskilled with digital. So far the conversation is discussing the technical craft only. I agree with with the OP totally: There is a definite, and noticeable drop in technical standards since the advent of digital becoming ubiquitous. I do agree that it is an important skill to get as much right in camera as possible for one reason - less time sitting at a damned computer when you could be doing something else. No matter how skilled you are at making things look great in Photoshop, IMO you're still an idiot if all that time and effort could have been avoided in the first place by using photographic skills rather than digital skills.

However...

Why are we mainly fixating on exposure and composition all of a sudden? Are those the only skills a pre digital photographer had? In fact... are technical skills the only skills ANY photographer has? While it may be good practice to get as much right in camera, given a choice... I'd rather look at great, innovative and creative work by someone who has low camera skills than a boring formulaic shot by a great technician.

The idea is to attain both: Develop great lighting skills and great technical skills... but also develop conceptually and creatively. Become an all round good photographer.

You can be the greatest photographic technician in the world and still produce crap images. Being a great technician just makes realising your vision a great deal easier.
 
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For me, this thread runs parallel to an on-going debate in the realm of music.

Over the last two decades digital music technology has advanced such that an amateur musician like me can now make high quality multi-track recordings in the comfort of my dining room on an almost standard computer.

The question is "Does access to all this technology make me a better musician?" The obvious answer is "No". In fact, the technology can draw attention to one's shortcomings.

I think it's the same in photography.
 
No, but you could still do a lot on the dark room, and in fact, to make the finished print to view, you had to, to a greater or lesser degree.

Is just not understanding the realities of making a living using film "back then" - in another similar thread, some comedian rather snottily told me that I could have done the equivalent of "unsharp masking" in a darkroom, which fails to grasp the practicalities of working with film. In practice, your films were processed at high speed in a minilab, and then printed at similar speed, with only basic colour correction and exposure adjustments made to the prints - a good minilab driver was capable of damn good results, certainly amply good enough for "proofs" or prints suitable for sale at things like functions - it just was not practical or affordable to have individual hand printing done for the vast bulk of your work. If you were really good, you could also settle for a "machine print" for enlargements too, which was considerably cheaper than hand printing - in my experience, very few local social photographers did their own processing, so you made damned sure you handed well exposed, properly focussed and framed films over to the processor.

I like the analogy with music - it's very relevant - all the technology in the word doesn't make better musicians
 
Ah... yes.. but how do you know, if you know all you need to know, if you know what I mean ;)

I mean, you'd need to know a bit more than what you need to know, just to know you dont need to know it; but then to know more than you need to know makes it something you need to know, which means you need to know even more, to know you dont need to know it! so you have to know more than you need to know, and you can never know more than you know, becouse eventually you'll know everything, and with no more to know, you cant know more than you do, becouse there's no more to know, but you need to know more in order to know that you dont need to know it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Me and the wife sat chuckling at that. :LOL:
 
I like the analogy with music - it's very relevant - all the technology in the word doesn't make better musicians

But does it make worse musicians and is any craft being lost?

Same applies, I would rather get it right on my guitar than have to mess around correcting things on a computer but the fact I could doesn't mean I have lost any craft or understanding.

But generally speaking the technology does let people take shortcuts and when people can take shortcuts they will most probably use them.
 
But generally speaking the technology does let people take shortcuts and when people can take shortcuts they will most probably use them.

But so much pp is not "making shortcuts", it's used an apology for good technique, (just like crummy photographers took refuge in filters and cross-processing) - I'm no techno snob, and will happily let the camera's onboard computer do a lot of the work for me - to my mind it is easier and quicker to "get it right" in camera than faff about with pp......
 
Technology makes photography easier and cheaper to get in to for new people but the best practitioners in any creative craft tend to be perfectionists. They aren't likely to use a shortcut if it lowers the quality of what they're trying to achieve. And if it doesn't lower the quality then it's not a shortcut, it's a better way of doing it.
 
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